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vindi

This Is Not Shadowbane 2 - Off The Hype Train For Now.

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This is what scotch and not sleeping can do to an individual. 

 

I stand by it. 

 

--------------------> |_|

 

the Balvenie, double cask, 15 years olde...

 

will that do?


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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The thing I loved about SB and DF was the attachment that players had to their holdings.  You chose the spot (in the case of SB), you built it, you lived out of it, spent hours at the vendors and crafting stations, dueling your clan mates, learned all the best hiding spots, defensive positions, etc.  Repelling would be attackers time after time. You grew a true emotional attachment to it, so when it was threatened, attacked, or taken there was true consequence to losing.  

 

Being tossed out of your holding on your ass and having to lick your wounds and start over was amazing (even though it sucked).  On the flip side, taking someone else's or tearing it down was even more amazing.  None of that can happen without being truly invested in the game world and the assets you built, and I'm having trouble figuring out how that emotional investment will happen when you know there is a reset looming.  

 

Really hoping more info will reveal the piece of the puzzle that's missing right now.

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The thing I loved about SB and DF was the attachment that players had to their holdings.  You chose the spot (in the case of SB), you built it, you lived out of it, spent hours at the vendors and crafting stations, dueling your clan mates, learned all the best hiding spots, defensive positions, etc.  Repelling would be attackers time after time. You grew a true emotional attachment to it, so when it was threatened, attacked, or taken there was true consequence to losing.  

 

Being tossed out of your holding on your ass and having to lick your wounds and start over was amazing (even though it sucked).  On the flip side, taking someone else's or tearing it down was even more amazing.  None of that can happen without being truly invested in the game world and the assets you built, and I'm having trouble figuring out how that emotional investment will happen when you know there is a reset looming.  

 

Really hoping more info will reveal the piece of the puzzle that's missing right now.

I play GW2 WvW and that is probably the closest analogue to what they are attempting here and you can have it happen, not to depth SB had but it does occur.

 

In that game you have a three sided war that lasts a week. There is 4 maps that it takes place on, each sides own "borderland" which is layed out exactly the same and the Eternal Battleground which has the only "castle" in the game and each sides area is different. In it you occupy pre-existing structures called Keeps (3 on each borderland) and Towers (4 on the set of 3 identical borderlands, 12 on the Eternal Borderlands). These structures when you occupy them are called Tier 1, because they can be upgraded 2 levels and you do this by capturing "supply camps" (6 on each borderland) and building up supplies in each tower/keep. When you captured a camp it would generate a pack animal called a "Yak" that carried supplies on a route to the towers and keeps. These Yaks were killable so typically some players at the start of the week would escort them, while at the same time the players drew supplies from these camps because they were needed to build "siege" (Rams, Arrow carts, ballista, catapults and Trebs). The "siege" was used to either capture other towers/keeps or defend them. The game was decided by points and each tower, keep and camp you "owned" was worth different level of points and the points were counted each 15 mins. Now the thing abouot keeps (and the castle called Stonemist) was that you could upgrade them to a point where you got something called a waypoint which allowed your forced to teleport into it for faster travel across the map. Basically it would be the equivalent of ranking a tree up to Rank 5 to allow your nation mates to tele in. So one of the main goals is to get a Waypoint in your keeps as fast as you can and at the same time "reset" your enemies keeps. You "reset" a tower or keep to Tier 1 every time it is captured by someone else, so the biggest blow in the game usually is to lose or capture a fully upgraded Tier 3 keep. When a Keep gets attacked the call will go out to defend it and those fights can get intense and last for hours. I participated in one where we fought off the other two factions for three hours when they had penetrated all the way to the "keep lord". THe keep lord is an NPC champion or Legendary that is basically takes the place of the ToL, except he fights. So even though you know it will be wiped in a week you can get that sense of "crap we lost x" and it especially happens when you spent long hours getting it to tier 3 just to log in and see it is gone. 

 

The Major downsides to me are:

1. Since it is a score based game it only matters what you own at what is called the "tick" and a tier 1 tower is worth just as much as a tier 3 tower points wise. All the tier 3 does is make it harder to capture. It doesn't look like Crowfall is heading in this direction atm since it will pay to defend all the time not just before the "tick"

 

2. To compound #1 the total score and the score leading up to the tick is shown and known, so that come the Monday/Tuesday after reset (Reset of Friday night) you will know if you have a shot of winning or not. If your server is not in the hunt to win that week a lot of people don't show up, thus making it even harder on the people that do. Crowfall might have this problem since people should be able to hit "M" for Map and see which way the wind is blowing at the late stages.

 

3. The only thing you are playing for is basically points in the server standings. Servers move up and down the standings and it is the standings that mostly decide who you will face next week. Hopefully they add something meaningful for winning in Crowfall.

 

4. It is hard to move up to another rung on the standing ladder and takes a long time, thus you end up playing the same servers over and over and over... and there is only like 100 players per borderland so...it gets old quick fighting the same people.

Edited by gauis

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it's the whole Concept of "score" that's bugging me about it...

 

again, i'm hoping i'm wrong...

It's an assumption but I don't think that they are going for a "score" system like GW2 but who controls the most land and resources being the winner. Yeah I can see it advocating a Zerg mentality (especially on the Guild v Guild server where to control a large area you need to be a huge zerg guild), but it doesn't necessarily force you to even on lets say the FvF server ruleset which is closest to GW2. In GW2 WvW there is guilds on all the servers that care less about the "tick" and just look to group v group or Guild v Guild fight. IN GW2 with their limited amount of people per boarderland that hurts the players that are playing for the "tick" because you end up with X amount of your slots taken by people not helping you capture stuff or sometimes even defending. With what they are building here it shouldn't be as much of an issue since it doesn't look like it will be so limited in player size.

Edited by gauis

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there's an assortment of reasons i don't play GW2...

 

you mention many of them

 

i'm hoping that's not where CF is heading...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I followed this game since day 1 on http://www.play2crush.com/.. Beta group 2 and I have tried to stay hype for it, but I think we are being mislead:

 

 

BUT...

 

This will not be different, there is no way because it is already being influenced by the carebears.  It already looks like a MMO clone and now it is starting to read like a clone.

 

I hope I am wrong, but I see another 2-4 year let down coming... I am jumping off the hype wagon. 

 

In 6+ pages, I imagine pretty much everything I'm about to post has already been said... but we all know how I love the sound of my own voice so... 

 

1. Don't stay for the hype. Hype is just setting yourself up for disappointment. We've all seen what that has done time and time again. As much as we may all want it to be, it will not be THE mmo for PvPers that defines generations. What will be important is if it is a better MMO than is out there now (at least for the field/niche they are looking to enter).

 

2. Carebears are needed. I've been an active PvPer since, what UT and UO. A world full of wolves is only so fun. You need some sheep. It really all comes down to the mechanics and features. If there is a place where I feel I can contribute to the (or my) cause, awesome. It's all about risk vs reward. If I want to mine in a safe zone and I get crappy ore or I have a ton of competition... or I can get a party out there in the wilds to protect me while I excavate a hidden ore reserve... I just made a "quest" where I can get items to construct stuff, players get a chance to kill some mobs and, if they are lucky, some idiot bandits attempt to attack us so the crew I just hired to protect me can take them out, too :)

 

3. It's going to have some standard MMO elements. I can't think of a game (at least off the top of my head) that doesn't have standard elements. Shadow of Mordor didn't reinvent the wheel. Diablo2 (or D3 w/the latest xpack) didn't either. Both are great games because they figured out what features spoke to the audiences they wanted and polished and integrated them very well into the world systems. I don't want an MMO that does everything, but I want one where I can at least understand what's going on ;)

 

4. There is a LOT of Shadowbane and other items we used to discuss in the Wolfpack/SBG offices that I've seen in the announcements so far. While Todd was watching things from afar, I'm betting he learned a LOT of lessons on what SB did right and wrong over the years after being released... as well as all the other MMOs out there. He's a smart guy.

 

Well, I could ramble on more but that's my .02 for now :)

Edited by ashentemper

Sean aka Ashen Temper | http://www.seandahlberg.com/

Without the Player, there is no Game!

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I'm fine with carebears in the game, but why not just let them play on their own worlds and still have good options for those who enjoy a more ruthless play style?

 

It seems like they're trying to cater both to "PvP-lite" fans and real PvP fans at the same time, and they might just end up alienating both the latter group or both groups.

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I'm fine with carebears in the game, but why not just let them play on their own worlds and still have good options for those who enjoy a more ruthless play style?

 

It seems like they're trying to cater both to "PvP-lite" fans and real PvP fans at the same time, and they might just end up alienating both the latter group or both groups.

Have you read the responses from Gordon Walton in this thread:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/

 

Read up on what the guy that split the PvE side away into its own little world in UO has to say about it.

Edited by gauis

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Have you read the responses from Gordon Walton in this thread:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/

 

Read up on what the guy that split the PvE side away into its own little world in UO has to say about it.

I did indeed.

 

If I had the chance to do it again, (and we had different fiscal and time constraints), we would have done something more like keeping the current current worlds with the original ruleset (like we later did with the Seige Perilous shard, which was too late in my view), and make new shards with a more PvE ruleset.

I'd prefer a system like what he describes here. A more permanent battleground in the style of SB and DF, and then separate, loosely tied worlds which more traditional PvP/PvE players can enjoy.

 

What's been laid out so far sounds closer to Trammel than it does his "do-over" plan. More of a figurative Trammel though. Even if the GvG world has full loot and 100% non-consensual PvP, it still may end up being absolutely nothing like SB if the win and reset systems disincentivize empire building and politics.

 

I'm not saying I want SB or DF 2.0, but what this game needs is a healthy metagame like those games have, like EVE still has to this day.

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So in the end, what was the point of Shadowbane and 'winning' in it?

Reigning over the server in your dominant position, and attempting to hold that dominant position for as long as possible, was the primary point. You could argue "well what's the point of that?" but then you'd never escape such a loop. It's like asking "what's the point of the USA always trying to be the #1 country?"

 

The desire to be the best at organized warfare or some aspect of it, simply for the sake of being the best for as long as you can, is the fuel that drives sandbox PvP MMOs.

 

In some games it's "be the best at 1v1", in some it's "be the best in arena matches", but in Shadowbane it was "be the best in national conflict." These games simulate historic organized warfare.

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Would a "reverse score" make you feel better doc? 1.24mil counting down to zero? Or going from zero to 1.24mil in score to see who wins isn't the same thing? Either way it's a counter. And the first example is a banestone counter. If you can find a way of making a video game without numbers, let me know.

 

Did I invent the wolf and sheep comparison? Would love to know :D

 

And telling the carebears they can have their own server in a PvP game is ridiculous. Like they said, if people are going nuts over a game like that -- they'll make it after this one. It looks like there will be a place for carebears in the role of crafting and the PvE they introduced today. So there's room for them. Is there room for them to hide in their own servers collecting resources and never participating in PvP? Hope not.

 

You could hardly be a PvE carebear on Shadowbane but people sure found a way. The majority of "carebears" in shadowbane actually participated in PvP quite often. They wouldn't be labeled carebears on these forums (yet) but they most certainly were on shadowbane. CF will have its own carebears when the criteria are defined. (someone grammar gummy bear me for my use of criteria? Mandalore?)

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In Shadowbane you never really "won" at the macro level.  Sure you could win engagements, you could win a siege, you could win multiple sieges and take over vast amounts of the map, and even dominate the server for stretches of time, but you never "won" the server.  The server was a constantly evolving landscape in terms of dominance and political alignments.  Did one nation dominate for periods?  Certainly.  It was that way in DF as well, but in almost every case when one nation got too big and powerful things would start to crumble either from within or because the rest of the server started to come together to oppose.  That was a big part of the thrill of these games.  The political metagame was fantastic.  

 

At the same time, things could become stagnant after many months/years passed.  I don't deny that.  So I know what the CF designers are trying to accomplish with this approach.  I just hope they don't sacrifice all of the positives that come with a truly persistent world. 

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I've long since abandoned any lore-centric analysis of Shadowbane, but might be happy to talk about how this game (or any MMO) isn't exactly Hobbes' Leviathan.

 

Only the life of a game or server is nasty, brutish, and short in the struggle to dominate the share of attention given to it by a playerbase.

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--------------------> |_|

 

the Balvenie, double cask, 15 years olde...

 

will that do?

 

yummy....knock down a fat cigar as well...mmmm


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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I'm hoping this eternal kingdom has constant war, and you are able to take the other guilds player built assets or just destroy them.

 

Since there are no resources in this world it forces you to go into the other shards, but you're not forced to stay there.

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