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Knight Changes I've thought of


Jjohnsin
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So...I think we all know that knight is pretty pale in comparison to the myrm, that pretty much everything better than the knight, but also with the release of templar I think knight will pale even more. So just a few thoughts that I've had that would add dynamic to the current kit, as well as give the knight an actual identity and mechanics that both the myrm and templar don't...Making it unique.

 

The thought behind this is that the knight would become the tank that provides and rewards proactive gameplay through the use of barriers and his shield.

 

#1: I think the CD should be lowered, maybe to 15 seconds or something. But I think it should also interact with allies, so if you hit an ally, instead of stunning like you do against enemies, you give your ally a barrier and the CD is cut in half or something. So in combat, if you consistently hit allies you're dashing around the fight, but it comes with the decision making of "hey should I use this for a barrier or a stun".

 

#2: Damage is low I think, and it should have something extra to it...Maybe an armor break or something.

 

#3: think it's OK, maybe make it more responsive

 

#4: Onslaught combo...I'd really like to see this combo be a mana dump of sorts. Negligible CD, but the bleeds stack similar to ranger (not sure if they do already) and keep the knockdown as is.

 

#5: I'd like to see this ability not only affect the knight but allies as well. My thought is that it always affects the knight as is, but that if aimed at an ally in range, gives them a barrier as well. The second part of the combo could be the same, aiming it at an ally gives them a buff that restores their specific AT resource.

 

#6: I think it's mechaniclly fine, minus all the hit box problems and all that.

 

RMB: I think block is a high skill cap ability as is, using it at exactly the right time for minimal stam usage, etc. But I think if the knight blocks a high damage ability, I think he should be rewarded for it...Just because as is, it's kind of a one-dimensonal skill with a relatively high skill cap, but perhaps that's a good thing too.

 

C power: This should really have a root attached to it...

 

So that's all, I haven't played the knight exclusively but I have played him a fair bit. I think these would go a long way in defining his AT as well as make him more viable with interesting abilities and synergies. What do you guys think?

Edited by Jjohnsin
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#1 is already a 15 second cooldown, but I like the suggestion. 

 

The damage on #2 should be significantly higher. 

 

The knight needs some facility for both defending and attacking at the same time. Right now, it's all about block. When we aren't blocking, we are just crappy DPS.

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#1 is already a 15 second cooldown, but I like the suggestion. 

 

The damage on #2 should be significantly higher. 

 

The knight needs some facility for both defending and attacking at the same time. Right now, it's all about block. When we aren't blocking, we are just crappy DPS.

Yah I got my timers messed, I meant charge to 10 seconds. But seems like we agree. I just want the knight to have unique mechanics that make it a viable pick over myrm and templar when it comes out

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1) sign. 4 second is too low, but 6-7 will be good

2) this skill is broken 2 month already, mb more. weapon dmg do not math in result dmg of skill. the fact what knight LMB crits is stronger than full charged 2-th

3) cooldown should be lowered. imo

4) both combos are strongest ingame. initial skill cooldown should be lowered so you can use finishers more often

5) do not agree. the point of knight is dynamic CC and protecting. block is strongest skill for massive pvp

6) more hitbox to make it easier to hit target would be nice. atm this is kind of skillbased

C) lower cooldown. nothing else

 

overall, manacost on most of skills should be lowered.

 

knight is fun and pretty balanced atm. if you do not believe me, I can duel you.

also this is 100% anticlass to confessor. he have no chance to kill knight

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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knight is fun and pretty balanced atm. if you do not believe me, I can duel you.

also this is 100% anticlass to confessor. he have no chance to kill knight

Knight won't win against even a semi-competent Lego. Their heals are just too strong and the knight has no burst damage, nor any way to interrupt their heals outside of lucky timing on a stun or knockdown. You can't run away from a Lego either.

 

Knights are anti-fessor only because of the reflect damage. That will change once that damage is moved to the Sentinel promotion class. Even then, a smart confessor isn't going to kill themselves. They'll just run away and there's nothing you can do to stop them. I've killed my share of noob fessors just by blocking their attacks. It isn't particularly fun or satisfying. 

 

This game isn't 1 vs 1 though. It's in groups where I feel like we need the biggest help. Why would anyone play a Knight over a Myrmidon or Templar?

 

The way I see it, the knight has 4 basic issues:

  1. The mana system was poorly designed, with the regeneration tacked on.
  2. The knight has zero burst damage.
  3. There is zero synergy between any of the knight's abilities. 
  4. Knights can't both defend and attack at the same time.

I could add more, I suppose, like zero utility and low mobility, but I don't expect them to give us everything. The truth of the matter is that most of our abilities are just low damage filler. The archetype is entirely defined by Block. Block can be very strong in 1 vs 1 situations, but is much less viable in a group setting. That's not to say that Knights are completely useless. They aren't. But they aren't as useful as the Myrmidon is or, I suspect, the Templar will be. Knights need to be more than just Block.

 

It's funny actually. I just went back and started re-reading the UI & Powers article for the knight. There are some interesting tidbits in there:

 

http://crowfall.com/en/news/first-look-knight-powers-and-ui/

 

His left click primary attack not only deals damage, it also restores his mana in large chunks…

 

For the longest time, the tooltips said they gave 1%, 1.1% and 1.2%, respectively. Now they say they restore 7 mana each. 7 mana is a large chunk?

 

Players who engage a blocking Knight will also have a chance to be knocked down when they hit the Knight with a front-facing melee attack

 

I guess the Templar got this one.

 

Note that we still have more work to do on block to introduce directionality, projectile reflection and linking shields, but will get to those features as we build more components.

 

Let's not forget that the plan is to move not only the reflect damage to a promotion class, but the 360 degree block ability as well. I have no idea what projectile reflection or linking shields will do, if they ever make it into the game.

 

The other passive on the Knight is a hit point buff to his companions. (The functionality isn’t all in yet, so for now it just provides the benefit to the Knight… but that’s fine, for our first combat milestone.)

 

Is this still in the plan for the knight? Will it be something active that we can do, or will we have to get below 20% HP before it fires like we do now?

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I decided to do some testing on our mana usage and I found some interesting things. 

 

As near as I can tell, we have between 1068 and 1140 base mana. I tested this by doing the following:

 

  • I let my food meter drop below 70%
  • I used all the mana I could use
  • I attacked a boar with basic attack until I had enough to use 1 ability
  • I used the ability

This appeared to bring me to zero mana, but I can't be sure. If basic attack was giving me 7 mana as expected, then it's possible that I still had up to 6 mana left, but couldn't see it on the bar.

 

I then used Oath of Will to fill up my bar. This ability restores 210 mana in 5 ticks of 42 each. I used it 6 times. On the 6th time, there were only 2 ticks of 42. I kind of doubt that it came out exactly, so I'm guessing that the last tick didn't actually restore 42 mana, but I can't be sure.

 

I also have a combat principle skill that says it gives me 25 mana, but again, I can't be sure this is working, hence my 1068 - 1140 range. I only have the skill trained to 50, so I will have to train the other 50 and see if there is any difference in the overall amount of Oath of Will ticks.

 

Other things I noticed:

 

  • Combos are NOT front loading the mana cost. Each ability is taking the mana separately. It is entirely possible to get the out of mana message when attempting to execute an ability later in the combo.
  • Neither Noble Blood nor Whirling Leap have a mana cost. They are both free to cast.
  • Pursuit costs more mana the longer you hold the button

That last one is interesting and I wonder if it is intended. I'm guessing it is, since it seems like it would be hard to code that by mistake. With Pursuit currently being broken and not stopping when we release the button, it is actually to our benefit right now to release the button right away.

 

My primary issue with the mana system remains the need to use an ability that does nothing other than regenerate mana, on top of it being a combo. Compare to Eternal Rage which regenerates a larger portion of the Lego's resource (35% vs ~19%), regenerates resources for everyone else in the group, heals everyone in the group, and doesn't require any other abilities to use. I can keep from running out of mana if I use Oath of Will whenever it is up, but I have to use it far too often for such a small benefit. Fervor is probably worse, but I can't remember the last time I saw a Confessor actually use it. It seems that with other changes to their mana system, they don't even need it any more, but maybe I am wrong on that. The Champion is another story. Their regen system is awful. 

 

Either Oath of Will should do more than just restore mana, or the mana regeneration should be worked into our attacks in a more interesting way.

 

Here is the video I created to show my testing. You can see me starting at zero mana and filling up the bar, then testing Pursuit. Note how the amount of mana used is different each time. When it took a lot of mana, it was because I was holding the button until the end. When it took almost no mana, it was when I released the button right away.

 

https://youtu.be/0UC_iFyiFTs

Edited by Arkade
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5) do not agree. the point of knight is dynamic CC and protecting. block is strongest skill for massive pvp

 

overall, manacost on most of skills should be lowered.

 

But the thing is that other classes bring more CC, including the templar kit that will have 3 CC's, a blind, and group healing. I was just thinking of ways to make the knight into a unique AT in the use of barriers, which is protecting his allies. #5 skill just seemed the easiest to implement and gives it more use than just a relatively lame combo that is required to not go oom, with a sub-par barrier.

 

And knights can't really kill any skilled player 1v1...Mayyyybe a duelist if you block their pepperbox, but duelist are meh as it is. Any other class can just run from you if for some reason they're losing. Plus the game isn't based on 1v1 so dueling is relatively pointless other than to practice mechanics

 

Pursuit I think is a physics issue tbh. I definitely travel different distances depending on how long I hold it...But it seems when you release you have too much momentum and always slide past where you're supposed to. But tapping the key dashes you relatively short distance, enough to followup knockdown or shield bash stun. Still clunky to use and something is wrong.

 

As I've looked at the skill trees, I think the best nodes for knight (with the current MANA system) are going to be resource reduction, and max resource. Paired with MANA Regen from oath of will...You can spam 4 combos relatively long. But even then it's a boring mechanic, and like Arkade stated id like to see it weaved into our skills more than a clunky shout combo...Paired with actual group utility

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I then used Oath of Will to fill up my bar. This ability restores 210 mana in 5 ticks of 42 each. I used it 6 times. On the 6th time, there were only 2 ticks of 42. I kind of doubt that it came out exactly, so I'm guessing that the last tick didn't actually restore 42 mana, but I can't be sure.

 

I also have a combat principle skill that says it gives me 25 mana, but again, I can't be sure this is working, hence my 1068 - 1140 range. I only have the skill trained to 50, so I will have to train the other 50 and see if there is any difference in the overall amount of Oath of Will ticks.  

 

I'd like to add observations I've made that may help in your testing:  

 

When healing someone that's near full while playing Legio the bellow of triumph (#2) HoT will tick the same number every tick unless it a.) crits, or b.) heals them to full, in which case the last tick to heal them to full will display the exact amount healed in that tick that topped them off.  

 

When playing a Confessor I've had absolution (#4) crit for 7k with 5 stacks of sin for the kill...we all know absolution should crit for ~20k with 5 stacks of sin.  

I've also had absolution hit normally for ~3k with 5 stacks of sin for the kill. These lower than mean numbers only happen during the kill shots which lead me to believe the values displayed are absolute in that they reflect the damage done exactly. I can land a 20k absolution crit only if they have 20k hitpoints to lose, otherwise it'll crit for whatever their current value of health is at the time, hence a 5-sin-stack 7k absolution crit. 

 

So back to how this may help you; when it shows it restored 42 mana, it restored 42 mana afaik.  

 

Also, you can see exactly how much mana your skills add by going to your skills list while in-game and a window in the bottom left of the screen will tell you the effects your skills have on your current character. 

 

 

 

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I'd like to add observations I've made that may help in your testing:  

 

When healing someone that's near full while playing Legio the bellow of triumph (#2) HoT will tick the same number every tick unless it a.) crits, or b.) heals them to full, in which case the last tick to heal them to full will display the exact amount healed in that tick that topped them off.  

 

When playing a Confessor I've had absolution (#4) crit for 7k with 5 stacks of sin for the kill...we all know absolution should crit for ~20k with 5 stacks of sin.  

I've also had absolution hit normally for ~3k with 5 stacks of sin for the kill. These lower than mean numbers only happen during the kill shots which lead me to believe the values displayed are absolute in that they reflect the damage done exactly. I can land a 20k absolution crit only if they have 20k hitpoints to lose, otherwise it'll crit for whatever their current value of health is at the time, hence a 5-sin-stack 7k absolution crit. 

 

So back to how this may help you; when it shows it restored 42 mana, it restored 42 mana afaik.  

 

Also, you can see exactly how much mana your skills add by going to your skills list while in-game and a window in the bottom left of the screen will tell you the effects your skills have on your current character. 

Yes, I've noticed that healing and damage numbers will be limited if healing past max or damaging below 0. However, it just seemed unlikely that the amount was exactly 42, since that is the amount of every other tick. It's should be easy enough to prove or disprove once the servers are back up.

 

The vessel enhancement window in-game shows +25 mana, however I don't know if that number is actually being added to my total mana. The knight gets 800 HP from the first skill in the knight tree and that wasn't actually adding to our total HP at one time, so I'm less inclined to take it for granted :)

 

Of course, if they'd just give us the numbers on the bars, this kind of stuff wouldn't be necessary.

Edited by Arkade
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I verified that the mana regen from Oath of Will does get cut off when the bar is filled. That means that the total base mana is 1109 to 1140. The fudge factor is based on not knowing if I had zero mana when I started. I may have had up to 6 mana when I started the test, assuming the basic attack generates 7 mana. Also, I get 25 mana from skills, and I can't be sure if that number is actually being added to my total mana. If I was actually at zero when I started the test and the 25 mana is being added to the total, then the base mana is 1115.

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I also tested the Knight's passive ability, Resolve. My current max HP is 65,836. 4% of that is 2,633.44. The ability healed me 16 times for 654 per tick. I'm guessing it's 4 ticks per second, which would be 2,616 healing. Close enough I guess. Total healing over 4 seconds was 10,464.

 

The ability doesn't trigger until I go under 20% HP (13,167) and there is an internal cooldown. I'm not sure how long the cooldown is as it's impossible to accurately measure it, but based on my testing, I'm guessing it's around 60 seconds. Being under 20% does not trigger the heal, only going from above 20% to below 20% triggers it. So if it is on cooldown when you go under 20%, you will get no healing when it comes off cooldown.

 

The passive is pretty underwhelming. What about instead of healing, the passive gives us extra mitigation based on the percentage of HP lost? At 100% HP, we get no extra mitigation. At 50% HP, we get 10% mitigation. At 20% HP, we get 20% mitigation. Something like that. This gives us some defense other than Block, allowing us to attack and defend at the same time, and makes the knight tougher to kill the lower his HP gets.

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Personally, I would absolutely LOVE to see the Knight have 2 mechanics that I have LOVED from other games. I think it would both make the Knight more fun, but also it would create some great Synergy within groups.


Ability 1: "Guard" from Dragon Age.
- Essentially what it is, is your "attacks" build a "Guard meter" that covers your HP and acts as a  secondary HP bar that must be taken down prior to anyone hurting your HP. It provides key sustainability for tanks. It does not "diminish" over time, so you attack a target and build up the "guard meter". Think of it as a "barrier". 

I think the Knight should have this on his basic "LMB". It would attack, generate mana (maybe 10 per attack up from 7), and provide a "barrier" over the Knights HP bar equal to some % of his total HP or damage dealt.

Here is what it looked like in Dragon Age (metal bar over HP bar):
maxresdefault.jpg



Second: "Guard" from Warhammer Online.

This ability, you would "cast" on an ally and if that ally was within 30 feet of you, you would split all damage with that ally. Taking half of the damage meant for them. 
This was absolutely critical and make tanks an extremely necessary role in Warhammer.

This was also used in Neverwinter a little different. It was called Knights Valor and was cast and split damage with an ally if they were merely in LOS. It had no "uptime" (neither did Warhammer). It was critical for Guardian Fighters in some situations to use this to save allies. 

My "vision" for this in Crowfall would be that since the Dragon Age "guard" would work in place of Noble Blood (providing a barrier), we could re-tool Noble Blood to do this for his party. Either a single target, or his entire party, and split all incoming damage with that ally/party for X seconds within X range. So the logical thing here would be a balance act between using Noble Blood and Blocking, versus using Noble blood to then use Oath of Will. 

I think these combined would make the Knight feel more fun and provide good party benefits in the form of block mitigation to his group. 



These changes WOULD make the Knight very reliant on his LMB "Slash" but I think that can be seen as his "generator" his kit revolves around, which he then uses to build barrier, generate mana and some CC effects on the third chain in the combo: Spin.

He would have a good sustainability, group benefits, and probably FEEL more fun. There may be better ways to incorporate these two things. BUT Im merely saying what my favorite TWO "tank" things implemented into games that I have enjoyed playing the tank role. 

Edited by th3gatekeeper
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I am fine with the knight doing low damage. I don't even attempt to deal damage on my knight because it drains too much mana and there is no easy way to replenish it. I do agree with the knight being given more support utility. 
 
I like the suggestion for shield lunge to also affect allies in someway or change the way it works. For me, the stun ability on this is unwieldy and the skill itself is extremely hard to use for anything other than mobility (which it sucks at currently because of the long cool down). I agree with OP in that I would like to see it maybe do some additional buffing of allies, or possibly have it apply a slow debuff in a radius around enemies as you pass by. Or just remove the stun ability and make it a strict mobility skill with a lower cool down. 
 
I really enjoy block. It works great and seems to be one of the more responsive abilities in the game. I also think it blocks enough damage without being completely broken. I especially like the ability because it also blocks for allies and I would like to see this improved upon. I play the knight as a distraction currently, meaning I am usually off on my own and not always directly helping my group. The mobility issues on the knight makes it messy and difficult to directly support of allies in trouble.
 
My suggestion is to give the knight some sort of targeted mobility skill that allows him to get to an ally quickly and more reliably than shield lunge. Something like a leap but for allies would be perfect. I am always very jealous of how easy it seems for other classes to get to their target when here I am, consistently sliding off course because shield lunge thinks I am ice skating.

 

Second: "Guard" from Warhammer Online.

This ability, you would "cast" on an ally and if that ally was within 30 feet of you, you would split all damage with that ally. Taking half of the damage meant for them. 
This was absolutely critical and make tanks an extremely necessary role in Warhammer.

 

This is interesting and is more of a magical guard than a physical guard. I do think the knights block does an okay job of protecting allies and I like that it takes more skill than something you just cast and forget, so I would prefer to just use that on allies if possible. Without some way of reliably getting to the target to guard though the magical route may be a better way to go.
Edited by Mytherceria
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I am fine with the knight doing low damage. I don't even attempt to deal damage on my knight because it drains too much mana and there is no easy way to replenish it. I do agree with the knight being given more support utility. 
 
I like the suggestion for shield lunge to also affect allies in someway or change the way it works. For me, the stun ability on this is unwieldy and the skill itself is extremely hard to use for anything other than mobility (which it sucks at currently because of the long cool down). I agree with OP in that I would like to see it maybe do some additional buffing of allies, or possibly have it apply a slow debuff in a radius around enemies as you pass by. Or just remove the stun ability and make it a strict mobility skill with a lower cool down. 
 
I really enjoy block. It works great and seems to be one of the more responsive abilities in the game. I also think it blocks enough damage without being completely broken. I especially like the ability because it also blocks for allies and I would like to see this improved upon. I play the knight as a distraction currently, meaning I am usually off on my own and not always directly helping my group. The mobility issues on the knight makes it messy and difficult to directly support of allies in trouble.
 
My suggestion is to give the knight some sort of targeted mobility skill that allows him to get to an ally quickly and more reliably than shield lunge. Something like a leap but for allies would be perfect. I am always very jealous of how easy it seems for other classes to get to their target when here I am, consistently sliding off course because shield lunge thinks I am ice skating.

 

 

This is interesting and is more of a magical guard than a physical guard. I do think the knights block does an okay job of protecting allies and I like that it takes more skill than something you just cast and forget, so I would prefer to just use that on allies if possible. Without some way of reliably getting to the target to guard though the magical route may be a better way to go.

 

The problem with using Block to defend allies is that it is only really useful in confined spaces, which we don't have very many of at present. In the open field, it requires extra coordination between you and the person you are protecting, and when you have multiple enemies attacking from multiple directions, it just isn't that useful. Most other archetypes will be better protected by using their mobility than trying to stand behind a knight.

 

The other problem with Block is that we can't do anything else while using it. We can hardly even move. Myrmidons can activate Berserk and then attack the entire time. Templars will be able to cast their heals and then attack while the heal ticks, and they have a block/knockdown mechanic on top of that.

 

The knight is entirely defined by Block. Pursuit (Shield Lunge) is broken and has been for some time. It's a useful ability when it's working correctly, but the entire kit is very lackluster. Low mobility, low damage and all of our defense is tied to 1 ability that doesn't allow us to do anything else while we are using it.

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The problem with using Block to defend allies is that it is only really useful in confined spaces, which we don't have very many of at present. In the open field, it requires extra coordination between you and the person you are protecting, and when you have multiple enemies attacking from multiple directions, it just isn't that useful. Most other archetypes will be better protected by using their mobility than trying to stand behind a knight.

 

I think block is strong enough to make people give up and find a different target, and that could be enough when protecting an ally in trouble. I envision a scenario when an ally is helpless and if a knight could get to them in time through some sort of reliable mechanic, it would give them those few precious seconds needed to survive. A well timed C does this for most classes but sometimes it isn't up or they are still unable to get away.

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also the block tooltip literally lies at the moment.

 

allies do not gain any benefit behind you at this point in time.

 

we did an extensive test in hunger dome [thread]

 

and even got a twitter response from todd confirming it was not in yet... [link]

 


 

they need to make the knight all about generating barriers both for himself and his group - very much like the dragon age guard example above but also offering it to nearby allies

 


 

i literally made a whole thread where i argued the ranger is actually a better designed support and tank hybrid due to their utility to reduce and prevent damage to allies while enjoying a far more active and engaging tanking style through barriers, lifesteal and dodge [and weapon break and suppression]

Edited by Tinnis
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