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Not Everybody Can Be A Butterfly, Some Of Us Have To Be A Moth.


phatcat09
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I think the biggest problem with Character progression is that there is no real separation between players. I really want to see a game where there are grunts and there are the elite.

But that's just me.

#CrowFallBata


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Isn't that what items are for? Who wants to specialize their character to be sub-par?

 

If it's truly going to be skill-based though, just about anyone should be deadly. There are multiple instances throughout history of grunts taking out leaders or skilled warriors in battle.

Edited by Teekey

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One of the great things about games is that not everyone plays for the same reasons and not everyone has the same idea of what butterflies consist of role wise.

I'm really happy being support, my character background is never that I'm a misplaced ruler of a faraway land wrongly cheated of my throne, and I never go for guild leader but usually do things like keep up the guild website.

There will be plenty of room for all the Strong Lead Characters Without Whom The Entire Ingame Universe Will Fail. There's a ton of players that get plenty of leadership/attention/weight on shoulders/pressure in their real lives and just being able to contribute ingame without having to lead is a wonderful vacation from reality.
 

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well the truly "elite" shouldn't fret as word of their great prowess will elevate them from the common grunts.

 

lol..  elitist much?

 

 

Off Topic: the banner '     Inspiring Combat       

, Dark Souls
' is that a dev quote?  Severance Blade of Darkness is one of my all time favorite single player games as the combat is crazy intense.

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well the truly "elite" shouldn't fret as word of their great prowess will elevate them from the common grunts.

 

lol..  elitist much?

 

 

Off Topic: the banner '     Inspiring Combat       

, Dark Souls
' is that a dev quote?  Severance Blade of Darkness is one of my all time favorite single player games as the combat is crazy intense.

 

No, I just put that in my sig to try and inspire the dev team and their combat direction any way I could.  Severance combat in a MMO would be bad ass.

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I had a few thoughts about this, on more than one subject. Firstly, the amount of maintenance involved in the characters might not be welcome to most, maybe players who spend more time amassing a fortune and gaining control in the game could gain access to more powerful equipment or features, and or employ other players who would rather just serve a lord that way all the technical stuff would be handled by an organization rather than having to arrange for all their needs to be met.

 

The other was that I'm a little concerned about the archetype identity. I'm thrilled that there are going to be centaurs, but in reality, different people have different capabilities, and their not naturally balanced or fair, and if this is true among one species, it's radical among various species. If we were comparing one radical species to another it could be a straight trade, but humans are not that spectacular in comparison, and making them super powerful just so they can match up with other choices kind of mutes the identity of powerful creatures and monsters...

 

I'm curious to know if there would be some sort of way to have asymmetric archetype power, either by way of playing different tiers of units or by way of playing groups of weaker units vs pairs or individual powerful units. Since this is an action game I doubt there will be much in the way of AI assistance, and I don't see any indication that they are considering team based units where a group of units operate together as a single entity controlled by one player. It would be an amazing way for significantly powerful monsters to be playable yet fair, in competition with players who operate sorties of weak units together.

 

If the battlefields are balanced around a unit cap and the game has good asymmetric unit combat, it might even be interesting to have single powerful archetypes/players face of against larger groups of weaker archetypes/players... but that's just a hope :-/

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Wow did not anticipate any of these responses. This is a first. 

Talk about a touchy subject.

Responding to Bahamut alone:

Yes it's an issue of asymetric power. As it stands most games are designed dto have mass appeal to everyone being on equal footing. No one stands out by much more than an inch.

"Oh he's the best rogue on Govinda Server"

All that really means is that he's in the "best" raiding guild and gets all the latest gear first, in PvP settings it carries a little more weight, but his K/D W/L stats over the next rogue who isn't a scrub aren't that much better, and best just means more frequently accurate decision making rather than an explanation of their characters actual raw power.

I want to see a game where, for whatever reason, a player is equitable to a boss character, so that comparatively everyone around them is an ant individually waiting to get crushed. So that when I talk about a player it carries connotations far greater than what people normally would think of another player.

"We have to go take out their key-figure."
 

So many care-bears though.

Come to think of it there is an MMO attempting this in part, where everyone is a God of some sort I forgot what it's called, but it'll be interesting to see them carry it out.

Edited by phatcat09

#CrowFallBata


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If this game has any sort of skill based combat, you'll find out real quick who is "elite" and who is not.

 

Trust me.

 

Having said that, with Raph on this game (Jedi in SWG), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a hidden class somewhere. Especially since the devs hinted somewhere they wouldn't of minded seeing an ultimate class that only one player gets to be in SB. I believe they were talking about some sword that could go around insta-killing everybody or something in SB.

Edited by cannibal man

Cannibal Man - Future serial killer

I can't even.  You win, I am done with this part of the discussion.

 

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If this game has any sort of skill based combat, you'll find out real quick who is "elite" and who is not.

 

Trust me.

 

Having said that, with Raph on this game (Jedi in SWG), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a hidden class somewhere. Especially since the devs hinted somewhere they wouldn't of minded seeing an ultimate class that only one player gets to be in SB. I believe they were talking about some sword that could go around insta-killing everybody or something in SB.

 

Great way to throw a wrench in anything resembling balance. I'm totally against "Ultimate" classes/promotions/disciplines/whatevers that ONLY ONE PERSON can get. Here's a good example of someone with such privileges (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKfjIcjdDdY). So in this video the person is playing a Dragon Knight with the emperor buff (only one person can have this per campaign). DKs were strong without the buff, however with the buff they're close to god mode, able to gain incredible amounts of ultimate and spam their banners giving back a ridiculous amount of health (due to a passive).

 

If they're going to put any sort of unique type stuff that only one person can have, it should be prestige and vanity only. No real effect on the balance on the game; other wise you get **** like this.

Edited by Helix
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It all goes back to how skill based a game is. ESO wasn't very skill based, being just marginally more-so than WoW.

 

I'm not big on one class to rule them all either though.

Cannibal Man - Future serial killer

I can't even.  You win, I am done with this part of the discussion.

 

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In FFA pvp, this might be able to work.  X amount of people are in the area and God player comes in.  Everyone has to band together to take him down or they'll get killed.  It makes these scenarios more dynamic as someone you may have been fighting now needs to become an ally because a greater threat comes along.  There would also be decent reward for taking down a God player since there's full loot in this scenaio.

 

In a guild v. guild world it makes less sense.  We have 10 players, they have 10 players, but one of them is godly so we have no chance.  That's pretty unbalanced and takes away the team based play that people are there for.  That's not to say there can't be gear or items that are more powerful than others, but it can't be to the same degree as the FFA world.

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In FFA pvp, this might be able to work.  X amount of people are in the area and God player comes in.  Everyone has to band together to take him down or they'll get killed.  It makes these scenarios more dynamic as someone you may have been fighting now needs to become an ally because a greater threat comes along.  There would also be decent reward for taking down a God player since there's full loot in this scenaio.

 

In a guild v. guild world it makes less sense.  We have 10 players, they have 10 players, but one of them is godly so we have no chance.  That's pretty unbalanced and takes away the team based play that people are there for.  That's not to say there can't be gear or items that are more powerful than others, but it can't be to the same degree as the FFA world.

 

Hmmm

 

 

 

9. How can you allow for so much character customization, and still claim that every character is balanced?

 

We don’t claim that!  The idea that “all characters should be equally balanced in all situations” is not one of our design goals.  We’re giving you the control to be able to customize your character.  The natural result is that some character builds will inevitably be better than others. 

 

http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4668bffce6644cb33809

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I think the interesting thing about Asymmetric power is not so much having more power, but having more interesting dynamic than just a bunch of equivalent units.

 

This is more acceptable in a RTS or such because one player is playing a variety of units, some worth more, some worth less, and those worth less units just come in greater numbers to offer the same but different value. It's not as appealing in an MMO where your using only one unit because it represents one player being significantly more powerful than another, and unless you have a matched battlefield where one team gets fewer units on the battlefield in exchange for consolidating power on a single unit, it leads to all players just wanting to have super powered units so they can bring more power to the battlefield.

 

I don't have a problem with everyone flying around (literally) with super powered units, but it kind of repaints the battlefield into some sort of monster war if everyone is outside the bounds of limitation. But even with the existing offering, the Centaur, they are amazing, but trying to hinder them into a balance role, and trying to prop up human/humanoid characters with enough advantages to offer a balanced alternative ultimately removes some of the identity of the Centaur.

 

By nature, no human size biped is going to have any comparison in speed or power to a Equine. Now bipeds may be able to access mounts and by assistance develop the mobility of a Centaur... but they will still by nature be less powerful and coordinated in battle. The stead would have to be a sentient warrior itself to match a Centaur in battle, maybe a rider and mount who are both intelligent warriors could surpass a Centaur, but the rider without the mount... there's really no rational premise for him to compete in feats of power...

 

So there is the identity dilemma, which can be overlooked, it's not an eyesore, than there's the appeal of Asymmetry. I think games like Evolve have brought Asymmetric combat into the light of recent, even games like Nosgoth have some unique asymmetry, but Evolve is specifically a 1 on 4 game with a single powerful monster fighting 4 cooperative hunters. If and how something remarkable like that could be offered in Crowfall... I don't know, I don't even know if features like flight and swimming will be integrated into battle well... but if you know me, you know what I'm wishing for u.u

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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There are a few text based muds that still have the asymmetry. I'm a big fan of the idea. As long as you have to work to get there and there is still a chance that you can be taken down. Why not? We aren't all equal, so why force things to look like we are? No skill cap. Just let the ones that want it continue to get better. Sounds fun.

 

I'll never be that guy. I just don't have the dedication. But I'm fine if somebody else is.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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If this game has any sort of skill based combat, you'll find out real quick who is "elite" and who is not.

 

Trust me.

 

Having said that, with Raph on this game (Jedi in SWG), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a hidden class somewhere. Especially since the devs hinted somewhere they wouldn't of minded seeing an ultimate class that only one player gets to be in SB. I believe they were talking about some sword that could go around insta-killing everybody or something in SB.

The Sword named Shadowbane never actually existed in the the game, J. Todd thought it would have been cool to have put it in the game where if you got it and hit another player it was an instakill and it was a permadeath. However if you die instantly while wielding the Sword, it is permadeath for your character and the sword falls to the ground waiting for the next suck...err..player to pick it up:

 

 

 

 the actual sword, "Shadowbane", didn't exist in the game.  We never even made the 3D object.  Our idea was to make it a relic that caused permadeath on everyone who touched it -- you could wield it, and if you killed someone with it, their character was wiped!  BUT if you died while wielding it, YOUR character was deleted.  and the blade would fall to the ground, for the next guy to pick up.  I still think this idea has amazing, untapped griefing potential.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/378-wpsbg-dev-ppl/

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I think the most "powerful" players may not necessarily even be well-geared or good at PVP.  They will be those who have leadership, organizational and diplomatic skills.    They don't need to be able to kill you personally if they can wave their hand and send 200 guild mates to lay waste your lands.

 

Being able to beat anyone 1 v 1 will be nice, but it won't necessarily make someone a factor in the larger game.  I also suspect that there will be class combinations that will immensely help group combat, but will be very weak in 1 v 1.

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