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Handies

ViP benefits @Devs?

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Svenn man Multiple accounts don't just have their benefits they are flat out BETTER and CHEAPER than having 1 VIP membership account. Aside from the inconvenience of needing to jump between accounts a person with 3 accounts and no VIP is MORE effective than someone with 1 account and paying for VIP. There's really no way to debate that and it is already prevalent in a lot of groups both large and small whether or not people are willing to address the elephant in the room.

Edited by Lebler

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Svenn man Multiple accounts don't just have their benefits they are flat out BETTER and CHEAPER than having 1 VIP membership account. Aside from the inconvenience of needing to jump between accounts a person with 3 accounts and no VIP is MORE effective than someone with 1 account and paying for VIP. There's really no way to debate that and it is already prevalent in a lot of groups both large and small whether or not people are willing to address the elephant in the room.

If your goal is to do everything, sure. Multiple accounts is the way to go. I don't see a problem with that. If your goal is combat, everything on one account is better. There's no real benefit to splitting up between multiple accounts (other than the extra storage space).

 

Again, your average player is not going to go buy multiple accounts. Some won't be interested in other parts of the game, some won't even consider multiple accounts, and some will be prohibited by the cost. It's going to be something the hardcore players do. And to that I say... so what?

 

As for VIP:

 

 

 

5. WHAT DO I GET FOR A VIP MEMBERSHIP?

 

VIP membership provides a few additional benefits:

  • VIP members can train three archetype skills at any time (instead of just one),
  • Priority access to all game servers,
  • VIP frame / badge on the forums,
  • Discount pricing on any purchases,
  • Other cool (but not game balance-affecting) benefits, as we think of them!\

I see no problem with this. And I think people seem to forget the bolded part. Discount store purchases. That's a pretty big deal for anyone who is going to be buying stuff off the store.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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But with the ability to craft things in game (namely parcels,mounts etc) other than getting these items quicker for a price what difference does it make that I get discounts on purchases I more than likely will never make? Why would anyone be against this game making more money thus being able to produce a better game by having more meaningful/incentivizing VIP features? We've seen countless testimonies in this thread alone from key figures in the community from very large organizations stating that they themselves have multiple accounts and we're still saying "well that's not gonna be an issue."

 

The issue isn't whether or not players will or won't do this because let's be honest, this happens and always will happen in every game to some degree. My concern is that the developers would be seriously cutting their potential revenue pool short if they simply allow people to pay once and never have any sustainable income afterword.  

 

To be fair from a solo player point of view I can see how VIP would be beneficial because most likely they'll be able to get equipped from the guild they join or something to that effect assuming the guild is capable of doing so for its members. But as a guild member/leader I know that most guilds of varying sizes will be hard pressed to keep themselves equipped regularly without having to rely on multiple accounts. I've even seen debates where people do not see the value of a player whose decided to soley craft versus a crafting alt of their own.

Edited by Lebler

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But with the ability to craft things in game (namely parcels,mounts etc) other than getting these items quicker for a price what difference does it make that I get discounts on purchases I more than likely will never make? Why would anyone be against this game making more money thus being able to produce a better game by having more meaningful/incentivizing VIP features? We've seen countless testimonies in this thread alone from key figures in the community from very large organizations stating that they themselves have multiple accounts and we're still saying "well that's not gonna be an issue."

 

The issue isn't whether or not players will or won't do this because let's be honest, this happens and always will happen in every game to some degree. My concern is that the developers would be seriously cutting their potential revenue pool short if they simply allow people to pay once and never have any sustainable income afterword.  

 

To be fair from a solo player point of view I can see how VIP would be beneficial because most likely they'll be able to get equipped from the guild they join or something to that effect assuming the guild is capable of doing so for its members. But as a guild member/leader I know that most guilds of varying sizes will be hard pressed to keep themselves equipped regularly without having to rely on multiple accounts. I've even seen debates where people do not see the value of a player whose decided to soley craft versus a crafting alt of their own.

I'm pretty sure that "discount on purchases" only means for website based purchases. Vip is not worth it right now. People in this thread can argue against all they want. But, when the general opinion across the forums is "it's not worth it", then the answer is clear. 

Edited by Handies

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I'm pretty sure that "discount on purchases" only means for website based purchases. Vip is not worth it right now. People in this thread can argue against all they want. But, when the general opinion across the forums is "it's not worth it", then the answer is clear. 

 

Agreed, I think you are right in that its only applied to website purchases.

Edited by Lebler

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But with the ability to craft things in game (namely parcels,mounts etc) other than getting these items quicker for a price what difference does it make that I get discounts on purchases I more than likely will never make? 

You think people aren't going to purchase things in the shop because they can be crafted in game? People buy stuff in cash shops all the times for reasons ranging from sheer laziness to lack of play time to just wanting more. You might not want to purchase stuff in the shop, but other people will.

 

 

Why would anyone be against this game making more money thus being able to produce a better game by having more meaningful/incentivizing VIP features? 

I gave you a list of things to incentivize VIP that didn't include buying any sort of power.

 

 

We've seen countless testimonies in this thread alone from key figures in the community from very large organizations stating that they themselves have multiple accounts and we're still saying "well that's not gonna be an issue."

You're seeing people on the forums for a game in alpha who are "key figures in the community"... these are not your average player. This is the very definition of hardcore players. Like I said, it's the hardcore players who will have multiple accounts, not the average players.

 

 

 

The issue isn't whether or not players will or won't do this because let's be honest, this happens and always will happen in every game to some degree. My concern is that the developers would be seriously cutting their potential revenue pool short if they simply allow people to pay once and never have any sustainable income afterword.  

 

You're right. A lot of the people buying second accounts would still do it even if you incentivize VIP even more. But you also seem to think that 1) VIP is their only sustainable income and 2) people won't pay for VIP. For #1 we've got all the cash shop stuff which people WILL buy and for #2 the average player is likely to see value in VIP. They won't all buy it, but many will. Personally, I plan on having multiple accounts with VIP on at least one of them.

 

 

 

To be fair from a solo player point of view I can see how VIP would be beneficial because most likely they'll be able to get equipped from the guild they join or something to that effect assuming the guild is capable of doing so for its members. But as a guild member/leader I know that most guilds of varying sizes will be hard pressed to keep themselves equipped regularly without having to rely on multiple accounts. I've even seen debates where people do not see the value of a player whose decided to soley craft versus a crafting alt of their own.

 
Like I said, your average player (ie the people joining guilds, not the people leading them) are going to see value in VIP and are not going to be going off purchasing 2, 3, 4+ accounts. They'll do their thing and rely on the guild to supply them.
 
If other people don't see the value in having dedicated crafters in their guild... I'll gladly accept them into mine. We're specifically looking for a group of dedicated crafters. I think people underestimate the value of a dedicated crafter over an alt account.

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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I get what you are saying its just for me as a player and also many in my own community really  2 out of the 5 incentives listed I only care about. I am sure others will find value in the purchase discount, the non-balance influencing benefits and the VIP forum tags badges, I just do not see the value and seemingly many others on the forum feel the same. Granted the people on forums are generally not your average players but still.

 

What would really make me feel better are some details regarding the final VIP benefits because currently there is are a good amount of people buying up additional accounts as a contingency plan based on what little we know now.

 

Just to add I totally agree about the dedicated crafters they absolutely have a value I was just bringing up something I've heard in discussing alt accounts in general.  

Edited by Lebler

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I get what you are saying its just for me as a player and also many in my own community really  2 out of the 5 incentives listed I only care about. I am sure others will find value in the purchase discount, the non-balance influencing benefits and the VIP forum tags badges, I just do not see the value and seemingly many others on the forum feel the same. Granted the people on forums are generally not your average players but still.

 

What would really make me feel better are some details regarding the final VIP benefits because currently there is are a good amount of people buying up additional accounts as a contingency plan based on what little we know now.

My guess is they don't have all the VIP stuff finalized. We're still a ways out from launch. The FAQ mentions "Other cool (but not game balance-affecting) benefits, as we think of them!" I expect they'll continue to look for ways to make things appealing to players. But still, in the end, VIP won't be for everyone.

 

Like I said, I'm all for them adding all kinds of cool features to VIP... as long as they aren't gameplay affecting. Cosmetics and convenience are great. Path of Exile makes a ton of money just off of some cosmetic effects/weapons/armor and stash tabs. People are more than willing to pay for convenience and cosmetics.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the 3 archetype training moved to all accounts and have VIP be something else. That's sort of convenience, but it's a little too gameplay affecting for my tastes.

 

My other huge concern is the fact that VIP is tradeable. While it's cool that someone can earn VIP in game, I don't like that it means people can essentially just buy currency via the cash shop. That's the most P2W aspect I've seen so far. It's just legitimized gold selling. At the very least, I'd like to see it be something like not being tradeable in campaigns and only in EKs so the campaign worlds aren't affected by someone just buying a bunch of VIP, selling it off, and spending all that money to buy resources/gear. This is far worse than someone with multiple accounts.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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It Seems quite simple. 1u1a for a regular account ($45usd) 2u 4a for VIP ($225usd) That provides the greatest convenience for the sub buyers, and would reduce the amount of alt accounts pretty dramatically. looking at the numbers,  currently, in order to have at least one account per tree, that is going to be a flat cost of 135 usd.  that is still a cost savings compared to the VIP cost of $225 1st- 180 usd/ year after.. the only in-game benefit to the vip is the archetype training.  The issue is  how to make it more of an incentive to have and hold vip, as compared to the 3 and done.

Now, unless I am mistaken, those gathering potions are going the way of the dodo come release. that means it is going to be even more difficult to gather up the mats that you want in order to be able to craft anything. Never mind the absolute insanity of the RNG for creating a crafting item ( I could go on about how many damn fails have occurred with 95% success, but that is for a rant in another topic), Never mind the acquiring of recipes to create said crafting items.

The concept of separating the roles is good. the theory does not really meet practice. In a perfect world, we could have every player happy with the 1u1a, and have groups of fighters, crafters, and gatherers all happily working to brain each other.  But if you want certain things, there are 8 specialties that crafters will be in.. so you will need 8 accounts if you want to just have all recipes ready at near go.  8 regular accounts is a hefty $360 usd and yet, that is a $360 one time fee for 8u8a.  compare that to a $450usd for a proposed 2 VIP accounts granting 4u8a. yup still pay more but there are really 6 less accounts in terms of gameplay, and the residual income of $360 usd annually. I don't know, That seems kind of convenient to me without upsetting any balance or introducing any scenario where an advantage can be bought.  the key argument is that a single 1u1a account is more cost effective than buying a vip package. The cost of the vip should be slightly more, while providing a roughly equal advantage for the convenience.   180 by 45 is 4.  so, at the very least, a vip package should provide 4a  now, in that vein, while 4u would be comparable, is that how a/c would want it.. Signs are showing no. and that leaves 3u. well, I would like that, but that would allow one account to be advancing on each tree. is it what they want? is that what we want? dollar for dollar, given the cost of the vip, it would equate to at best, a 3u4a for a comparable fiscal expenditure. is that too powerful? 


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I'm pretty sure that "discount on purchases" only means for website based purchases. Vip is not worth it right now. People in this thread can argue against all they want. But, when the general opinion across the forums is "it's not worth it", then the answer is clear. 

 

They know VIP doesn't really offer value right now. There are threads in the Dev Partner forum on the topic and I think they either have ideas in mind to change VIP or they are looking for ideas.

 

Hopefully they make a decision soon so that players have some idea what they are buying in terms of value with both alt accounts and VIP.

Edited by coolwaters

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I am for more incentive to buy VIP than extra accounts. Art-craft comes out ahead this way. As far as 3 AT training I don't think most care. Normal players play 1 class not several. This ties into Svenn talking about hardcore vs normal paying. 

 

It will be a lot easier to fill an AT role than one of the 8 craft roles or one of the harvester roles. Majority of players will flock here for the pvp, gvg fighting. Sure some want to be solely for crafting/harvesting but not as many that want to fight.

 

Edit. I also think most of this discussion for more universal training is all about the combat tree (which everyone will need) maybe this tree needs to be looked at more

Edited by Papito

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I still have yet to hear a real response to the question on why would should have the limit on universal training, on why VIP shouldn't be able to bypass it, when it can already be bypassed easier and cheaper without VIP anyway.  We are talking about a limitation that doesn't actually work. Based on this and how easily one can get around the limitation, it begs the question as to what purpose the limitation is actually serving.  At this point, are those of you who are defending it doing so strictly for ideology's sake, because you like it conceptually, or can you actually see a purpose behind a rule that nobody has to actually follow? 

Edited by Decoy

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I still have yet to hear a real response to the question on why would should have the limit on universal training, on why VIP shouldn't be able to bypass it, when it can already be bypassed easier and cheaper without VIP anyway.  We are talking about a limitation that doesn't actually work. Based on this and how easily one can get around the limitation, it begs the question as to what purpose the limitation is actually serving.  At this point, are those of you who are defending it doing so strictly for ideology's sake, because you like it conceptually, or can you actually see a purpose behind a rule that nobody has to actually follow?

 

The only answer I've ever seen is the vague and hyperbolic reference to "but P2W!"

 

It makes zero sense.

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Again, your average player is not going to go buy multiple accounts.

I actually haven't seen anyone in my guild or otherwise claim they plan on sticking with one account.

 

The only people who say they are going with VIP are the people who have tons and tons of free months of VIP via packages.

 

 

This is why people are worried about the payment model, not because for any selfish reasons, they are not wanting to P2W or some such non-sense but because of the financial future of supporting this game is based on VIP. It has to be desirable and worth it.

 

And the people who keep spouting the P2W or buying power non-sense have never actually played a pay to win game. Buying an advantage does not make it pay to win as long as the more you spend the more you win does not apply.

 

I have said it before but i will say it again. There is very little they could do that would make 15$ a month fee on a account pay to win.  Because you cant spend $30 and get 'more'. There's no 'whales' in a monthly fee model which is where the play to win model issues come from.


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On 2/28/2017 at 10:01 AM, Vectious said:

I actually haven't seen anyone in my guild or otherwise claim they plan on sticking with one account.

 

The only people who say they are going with VIP are the people who have tons and tons of free months of VIP via packages.

 

 

This is why people are worried about the payment model, not because for any selfish reasons, they are not wanting to P2W or some such non-sense but because of the financial future of supporting this game is based on VIP. It has to be desirable and worth it.

 

And the people who keep spouting the P2W or buying power non-sense have never actually played a pay to win game. Buying an advantage does not make it pay to win as long as the more you spend the more you win does not apply.

 

I have said it before but i will say it again. There is very little they could do that would make 15$ a month fee on a account pay to win.  Because you cant spend $30 and get 'more'. There's no 'whales' in a monthly fee model which is where the play to win model issues come from.

Any in-game benefit that comes from money = "pay to win". The fact that you can't pay MORE to win doesn't mean it's not pay to win in the first place.

What if they made it so that you get 5 times as many resources if you were VIP? You're telling me that's not "pay to win" because you can't do it multiple times?

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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On 2/28/2017 at 6:27 AM, Decoy said:

I still have yet to hear a real response to the question on why would should have the limit on universal training, on why VIP shouldn't be able to bypass it, when it can already be bypassed easier and cheaper without VIP anyway.  We are talking about a limitation that doesn't actually work. Based on this and how easily one can get around the limitation, it begs the question as to what purpose the limitation is actually serving.  At this point, are those of you who are defending it doing so strictly for ideology's sake, because you like it conceptually, or can you actually see a purpose behind a rule that nobody has to actually follow? 

A "real response"... right... Way to ignore everything that's been said up to this point.

Why should we have the limit? Because people aren't supposed to be able to do everything. Everyone needs to specialize to create an interesting and functioning economy.

Why shouldn't VIP bypass it? Because you're buying power. Buying power with real money is awful and should not be a thing at all.

As for it being bypassed without VIP, I'd be fine if they made multiple accounts against the TOS. They don't think they can enforce it so they won't even set the rule. That being said, it's not much of an issue unless it becomes too prevalent. I've argued that your average player will NOT be buying multiple accounts, but neither side can say for sure how many people will or won't. Also, there is a large difference between one account that can do everything and owning a dozen accounts.

So at this point it's people who seem to think every player will have 6 accounts and those of us who think that it will be a mild problem only among the hardcore.

Also, people keep lumping in multiple accounts and VIP into one thing. Multiple accounts will exist because of the universal skills, not because of archetypes. VIP is a benefit of multiple archetypes. Any sane person isn't going to buy 3 accounts to train 3 different archetypes. The only way to "fix" multiple accounts is to get rid of the entire idea of specialization completely. Nothing about VIP is going to change people wanting multiple accounts unless you move into pay to win territory.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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On 2/28/2017 at 8:01 AM, Vectious said:

I actually haven't seen anyone in my guild or otherwise claim they plan on sticking with one account.

 

The only people who say they are going with VIP are the people who have tons and tons of free months of VIP via packages.

 

 

This is why people are worried about the payment model, not because for any selfish reasons, they are not wanting to P2W or some such non-sense but because of the financial future of supporting this game is based on VIP. It has to be desirable and worth it.

 

And the people who keep spouting the P2W or buying power non-sense have never actually played a pay to win game. Buying an advantage does not make it pay to win as long as the more you spend the more you win does not apply.

 

I have said it before but i will say it again. There is very little they could do that would make 15$ a month fee on a account pay to win.  Because you cant spend $30 and get 'more'. There's no 'whales' in a monthly fee model which is where the play to win model issues come from.

This... If I didn't have over 5 years of sub already, I wouldn't even buy any right now or make any plans to.

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It's a real shame that even if you only care about combat and want to play multiple ATs, it's miles better to go separate accounts then VIP.

Reassuring they are looking for input and plan to address it though.


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5 hours ago, Svenn said:

Why should we have the limit? Because people aren't supposed to be able to do everything. Everyone needs to specialize to create an interesting and functioning economy.

Why shouldn't VIP bypass it? Because you're buying power. Buying power with real money is awful and should not be a thing at all.

As for it being bypassed without VIP, I'd be fine if they made multiple accounts against the TOS. They don't think they can enforce it so they won't even set the rule. That being said, it's not much of an issue unless it becomes too prevalent. I've argued that your average player will NOT be buying multiple accounts, but neither side can say for sure how many people will or won't. Also, there is a large difference between one account that can do everything and owning a dozen accounts.

So at this point it's people who seem to think every player will have 6 accounts and those of us who think that it will be a mild problem only among the hardcore.

Also, people keep lumping in multiple accounts and VIP into one thing. Multiple accounts will exist because of the universal skills, not because of archetypes. VIP is a benefit of multiple archetypes. Any sane person isn't going to buy 3 accounts to train 3 different archetypes. The only way to "fix" multiple accounts is to get rid of the entire idea of specialization completely. Nothing about VIP is going to change people wanting multiple accounts unless you move into pay to win territory.

You haven't addressed the issue though.  I'll say it again: We are talking about a limitation that doesn't actually work. Based on this and how easily one can get around the limitation, it begs the question as to what purpose the limitation is actually serving.  You can make claims that it will reduce occurrences, but this does nothing to resolve the conceptual problem: that what you deem "buying power/pay to win territory" is easily doable and the game, in it's current form.  I disagree with the rhetoric you use here, but based on your beliefs on the subject, it is already occurring.  The things you say we aren't supposed to do are easily doable; you get to "do everything" and you get to negate the "need to specialize."  Your claims to psychically know of its future rarity addresses nothing about the problems with the core concept- It is a limitation that doesn't actually work.  It is like you are sailing a boat with a huge hole in it and saying "well at least there aren't that many holes" as if that erases the problem of the one freaking hole.  

The bottom line is that the developer's goals are untenable on this subject. It isn't going to be possible to stop people from "doing everything" or "negating specialization."  It is a playstyle people are going to want enough to to "pay to win" so really we are just talking about how many loopholes we can force people through before they can enjoy the game in the way they want.  This isn't the best formula for an MMO as it leaves people either jumping through the hoops and being annoyed at the process (having less fun than they should) or simply giving up on the process (and the game) due to the annoyance.  

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1 minute ago, Decoy said:

You haven't addressed the issue though.  I'll say it again: We are talking about a limitation that doesn't actually work. Based on this and how easily one can get around the limitation, it begs the question as to what purpose the limitation is actually serving.  You can make claims that it will reduce occurrences, but this does nothing to resolve the conceptual problem: that what you deem "buying power/pay to win territory" is easily doable and the game, in it's current form.  I disagree with the rhetoric you use here, but based on your beliefs on the subject, it is already occurring.  The things you say we aren't supposed to do are easily doable; you get to "do everything" and you get to negate the "need to specialize."  Your claims to psychically know of its future rarity addresses nothing about the problems with the core concept- It is a limitation that doesn't actually work.  It is like you are sailing a boat with a huge hole in it and saying "well at least there aren't that many holes" as if that erases the problem of the one freaking hole.  

The bottom line is that the developer's goals are untenable on this subject. It isn't going to be possible to stop people from "doing everything" or "negating specialization."  It is a playstyle people are going to want enough to to "pay to win" so really we are just talking about how many loopholes we can force people through before they can enjoy the game in the way they want.  This isn't the best formula for an MMO as it leaves people either jumping through the hoops and being annoyed at the process (having less fun than they should) or simply giving up on the process (and the game) due to the annoyance.  

Like I said, I'd like to see the devs make it against the ToS and enforce it when they can. It wouldn't stop it completely, but it would pretty much guarantee it wouldn't be super common as people wouldn't want to risk a ban on their main account. If there's a solution, that's it. I'm still not convinced multiple accounts will be commonplace enough to be a huge issue, but there's no way to prove that either way.

Changing it so everyone can do everything is not a solution. It pretty much just breaks the whole game. The economy wouldn't work, which messes up the balance, which makes the campaigns not really work. And that's basically the only solution I've seen people give... just let everyone craft and gather and fight all on one character. If you say "well, just limit it to 2 or 3 trees then"... that doesn't solve anything as then people would still just create multiple accounts to do everything.

People will always make multiple accounts for a variety of reasons, as long as there is ANY benefit to it. ACE decided that it wasn't a large enough issue to bother with. Seeing as they have experience not only with MMO development but with similar systems I trust their judgement.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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