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Handies

ViP benefits @Devs?

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34 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Changing it so everyone can do everything is not a solution. It pretty much just breaks the whole game. The economy wouldn't work, which messes up the balance, which makes the campaigns not really work.

How?  Most MMOs have the ability to learn all crafting professions on a single account and it doesn't break economies, typically because there is a time and energy investment in doing it all yourself.

34 minutes ago, Svenn said:

And that's basically the only solution I've seen people give... just let everyone craft and gather and fight all on one character. If you say "well, just limit it to 2 or 3 trees then"... that doesn't solve anything as then people would still just create multiple accounts to do everything.

Obviously it isn't the only solution you've seen because you just repeated a middle-ground suggestion.  And could I not just use your own argument to defend the change by saying that the compromise would reduce the instances of multi-boxing?

 I would also argue that the suggestion isn't necessarily coming strictly from those who want to "do everything."  A lot of this is pushback is coming from those of us who find it shortsighted and relegate the gamer-base to the choice of being able to craft at the expense of gimping oneself in combat while supplying gear to people who won't suffer those negative effects.  The best suggestion I've heard is just deleting the combat universal entirely, migrating the general combat-focused training aspects into the archetype training.  We are asking not to "do everything" but to "do less."  

I would also add that this would also greatly increase the value of VIP all on its own by making archetype training better while still having it as a sidegrade bonus, all the while making multiboxing less valuable as there is one less universal tree to provide reason to multibox.  More money for the game and less of players feeling like they have drag the team down in combat to better the team in gear.  

Edited by Decoy

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55 minutes ago, Svenn said:

People will always make multiple accounts for a variety of reasons, as long as there is ANY benefit to it. ACE decided that it wasn't a large enough issue to bother with. Seeing as they have experience not only with MMO development but with similar systems I trust their judgement.

This is a bizarre assumption to make, I really can't see where you're getting it from. That's like saying "well combat is laggy, obviously ACE decided performance is not a large enough issue to bother with." Or "archetype balance is awful, obviously ACE decided it's not.." etc. This is a very unfinished pre-alpha, we can't know which parts of it will change by release, unless they tell us (..and even then we don't know, plans do change). That's why discussions like this exist: the whole thread is founded on the hope that VIP, multiple accounts, etc. might yet be changed.

My alternate theory: multi-accounting is an important issue and they know it, particularly if it's competing directly with VIP and winning. They haven't decided on a solution yet, or haven't gotten around to implementing the solution(s) they've decided on, because they currently have more urgent problems.

Anyway, I doubt that banning multiple accounts is ever going to happen, it's practically impossible. But just because we can't get rid of multiple accounts 100%, it doesn't mean we can't do anything to discourage them, to make them less enticing. Currently the game all but demands you get multiple accounts if you want to experience anything but a narrow slice of gameplay, and that could be changed. Adding (for example, I'm not saying I support this idea) a second general train to all accounts is one middle-of-the-road solution already mentioned, it would reduce - although definitely not eliminate - multiple accounts. There are certainly other, better solutions we could come up with.

Edited by Avloren

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Specialization and interdependence are important design concepts for the long-term success of Crowfall - for making a game with the longevity of EVE, and for making a game where non-combat roles can be full time playstyles like SWG. Why should they sell something that compromises that part of the core vision? I'd much rather see convenience perks like skill queuing go into VIP.

Buy multiple accounts if you enjoy that, it's good to have choices for how to support the game.


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3 hours ago, miraluna said:

Specialization and interdependence are important design concepts for the long-term success of Crowfall - for making a game with the longevity of EVE, and for making a game where non-combat roles can be full time playstyles like SWG. Why should they sell something that compromises that part of the core vision? I'd much rather see convenience perks like skill queuing go into VIP.

Buy multiple accounts if you enjoy that, it's good to have choices for how to support the game.

Exactly...

This is the consept we have backed, if all those who want it changed to their idea.... will result in one of the reasons I backed the game will be gone.

 

Its like ppl ordering a pizza and then complaining about not getting a burger...


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55 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Exactly...

This is the consept we have backed, if all those who want it changed to their idea.... will result in one of the reasons I backed the game will be gone.

 

Its like ppl ordering a pizza and then complaining about not getting a burger...

Actually, many of us backed way before this iteration of the training system, the initial description/concept was a lot more shallow and didn't even go into specializations beyond specializing your individual "characters."  It looked way different when we got it and it looks even more different now than it did over a year ago.  The system changed... as it should.  You back with that understanding that the game is very very early development and nothing you see is set in stone, as I did.  The malleability of the game right now is a big part of why people even come to the forums right now, to see it change and be a part of that change.  It would be silly to back a pre-alpha product and think what we see on the client screen is the game from now til launch. 

Edited by Decoy

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On 1/3/2017 at 7:26 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

My guildmate facerip and I have already solved this problem.  Change VIP from 1General3AT trains to 2G2AT or 3G1AT.  This makes multi-accounting vastly inferior and people still have a way to get VIP in game if they seriously can't afford the 10-15 a month. 

I cannot believe you have reversed your position that this scheme would be Pay To Win (P2W); and it would be P2W, btw.

After you have made hundreds of posts railing about VIP being P2W and how it would ruin CF.

I do agree that players will be able to buy in-game goods and services with VIP tickets after launch.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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10 hours ago, Decoy said:

How?  Most MMOs have the ability to learn all crafting professions on a single account and it doesn't break economies, typically because there is a time and energy investment in doing it all yourself.

If you consider rampant inflation, a few valuable items and the rest junk, and crafting as a side thing that everyone does for themselves but is not a viable thing to do as a profession as "not broken", then sure. Crowfall is specifically trying to avoid the usual poorly made socks economies that MMOs have. Item decay, only crafted items, and specialization are what will keep the economy in a good position and prevent it from succumbing to the usual MMO poorly made socks.

Quote

Obviously it isn't the only solution you've seen because you just repeated a middle-ground suggestion.  And could I not just use your own argument to defend the change by saying that the compromise would reduce the instances of multi-boxing?

 I would also argue that the suggestion isn't necessarily coming strictly from those who want to "do everything."  A lot of this is pushback is coming from those of us who find it shortsighted and relegate the gamer-base to the choice of being able to craft at the expense of gimping oneself in combat while supplying gear to people who won't suffer those negative effects.  The best suggestion I've heard is just deleting the combat universal entirely, migrating the general combat-focused training aspects into the archetype training.  We are asking not to "do everything" but to "do less."  

I would also add that this would also greatly increase the value of VIP all on its own by making archetype training better while still having it as a sidegrade bonus, all the while making multiboxing less valuable as there is one less universal tree to provide reason to multibox.  More money for the game and less of players feeling like they have drag the team down in combat to better the team in gear.  

This just proves you don't understand the system at all. These things you are spouting as negatives are the exact intention of the system. People are NOT supposed to be able to do everything, or even most things. People are supposed to be specialized and interdependent. That's not a flaw, it's a very intentional feature.

9 hours ago, Avloren said:

This is a bizarre assumption to make, I really can't see where you're getting it from. That's like saying "well combat is laggy, obviously ACE decided performance is not a large enough issue to bother with." Or "archetype balance is awful, obviously ACE decided it's not.." etc. This is a very unfinished pre-alpha, we can't know which parts of it will change by release, unless they tell us (..and even then we don't know, plans do change). That's why discussions like this exist: the whole thread is founded on the hope that VIP, multiple accounts, etc. might yet be changed.

My alternate theory: multi-accounting is an important issue and they know it, particularly if it's competing directly with VIP and winning. They haven't decided on a solution yet, or haven't gotten around to implementing the solution(s) they've decided on, because they currently have more urgent problems.

Anyway, I doubt that banning multiple accounts is ever going to happen, it's practically impossible. But just because we can't get rid of multiple accounts 100%, it doesn't mean we can't do anything to discourage them, to make them less enticing. Currently the game all but demands you get multiple accounts if you want to experience anything but a narrow slice of gameplay, and that could be changed. Adding (for example, I'm not saying I support this idea) a second general train to all accounts is one middle-of-the-road solution already mentioned, it would reduce - although definitely not eliminate - multiple accounts. There are certainly other, better solutions we could come up with.

There's no assumption. Directly from ACE (Gordon):

Quote

Question: how are you designing the systems so people don't just buy multiple accounts and have crafter only alts instead of crafter mains? (e.g. old VIP vs multiple account debate)
Answer (Gordon): This is not a design criteria. Some people will buy multiple accounts, it's not something you can realistically stop.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/53393m/crowfall_ama_91616/d7pm0sx/

They considered it. They decided it wasn't something worth even attempting to stop. Straight from the mouth of ACE. 

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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Currently I CAN as you've stated "buy power" in the form of multiple accounts and on top of that I do not have to give ACE a dime once I buy these initial accounts so by your definition svenn the game is already p2w. My concern is why not just discourage multiple accounts (again there is no permanent solution this will still happen) by allowing VIP people to train multiple general skills all the while gaining ACE more income. If they allowed this I would give away my alt accounts pretty quickly to people iffy about trying the game. At the end of the day ACE needs to make money to keep operating day to day, we can site games like League of Legends or POE as successful cash shop games they have plenty of profits but business models don't easily translate or work for every type of game.

What if VIP offered the service of accessing accounts you tie to a root account simultaneously? Would that be an issue?  It's only added convenience at that point and hell I would pay slightly more per account linked if that were an option.  

 

 

Edited by Lebler

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4 minutes ago, Lebler said:

Currently I CAN as you've stated "buy power" in the form of multiple accounts and on top of that I do not have to give ACE a dime once I buy these initial accounts so by your definition svenn the game is already p2w. My concern is why not just discourage multiple accounts (again there is no permanent solution this will still happen) by allowing VIP people to train multiple general skills all the while gaining ACE more income. If they allowed this I would give away my alt accounts pretty quickly to people iffy about trying the game.

There's a difference between not stopping multiple accounts and making multiple general training a feature. Again, having a single account be able to do all the stuff is not the same as having multiple accounts. Multiple accounts are something that exist outside of the game system. People are going to do it no matter what you do, but it's just not something the average player would ever even consider. By definition, it's hardcore players who are going to do it. That's like saying that you can pay real money to someone for a bunch of gear or currency or resources outside of the game, so therefore every game is "pay to win". 

4 minutes ago, Lebler said:

What if VIP offered the service of accessing accounts you tie to a root account simultaneously? Would that be an issue?  It's only added convenience at that point and hell I would pay slightly more per account linked if that were an option.  

I don't have a problem with this outside of the fact that it normalizes multiple accounts. It turns multiple accounts into a "feature". If you make something a "feature", more people are going to jump on it. Part of why multiple accounts is less of an issue is just because a lot of people either wouldn't even think to buy multiple accounts or see it as a burden. When you turn it into a feature, people are going to use it more (that goes for both this suggestion as well as the idea of moving extra general training to VIP or a default feature).

This system is not brand new. Several people at ACE have experience with this stuff from SWG. They know that multiple accounts existed there, but also it wasn't so prevalent as to be a huge issue. This isn't just all speculation, but taken from actual real experience with similar systems.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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But my question is why not offer a feature that eliminates the perceived need(it is absolutely perceived as a need not only in "hardcore" circles) for multiple accounts while also making more money in the long run for ACE.

I and others are literally begging people to see that we are willing to put money towards this game on a monthly basis over the cheaper alternative of buying multiple accounts.

As an old SWG player you are absolutely right it wasn't something that was rampant in any way shape or form. BUT the key difference is that SWG was a game that you could literally grind for a few hours to max of a particular profession and rinse/repeat and you could open for business as a great crafter or gatherer etc.

Edited by Lebler

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3 hours ago, BurgundytheRed said:

I cannot believe you have reversed your position that this scheme would be Pay To Win (P2W); and it would be P2W, btw.

After you have made hundreds of posts railing about VIP being P2W and how it would ruin CF.

I do agree that players will be able to buy in-game goods and services with VIP tickets after launch.

I haven't reversed my position.  I definitely believe it is p2w.


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The idea that you are gimping yourself to step out of a single line of training is an all to often theme in this debate and is imo altogether inaccurate.  Every single account will want to train vessels, even crafters.  Quite a number of builds will require Leadership, or stealth or any number of useful skills that are not gatherer or combat...  every player will eventually be faced with stepping off of the single focus training.  The fact that everyone will need training OTHER than their primary focus is an inherent balancing of that potential claim of being gimp...   Harvesters will need some combat skills, Combat mains will need some useful other skills, every character will be required to have some hybrid essentials and that is the best way to handle the gimp argument.

 


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49 minutes ago, Lebler said:

But my question is why not offer a feature that eliminates the perceived need(it is absolutely perceived as a need not only in "hardcore" circles) for multiple accounts while also making more money in the long run for ACE.

I and others are literally begging people to see that we are willing to put money towards this game on a monthly basis over the cheaper alternative of buying multiple accounts.

Because all the suggested solutions completely go against the entire design of the game. 

They've said they are looking at other ways to make VIP worthwhile. Like I said, VIP being "worthwhile" and multiple accounts are separate issues and should not be lumped together.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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I didn't back the game because I had to choose one particular path, when I backed the game I was going to be able to have multiple character slots to fulfill multiple rolls NOT because that is what is needed to succeed but because that is what I enjoy. Granted I understand that things change and I am fine with it, I just think the VIP sub needs to be enchanced.

SWG is a bad counter example because SWG had plenty of people with multiple accounts because you were limited to a certain amount of profession you could learn on one toon. What they didn't have a lot of were people multiboxing with those accounts which I think is what they mean to be talking about when they say its not a problem.

In crowfall we are not limited to how much we can learn on one account but we are limited in the sense that the time based progression requires you to buy multiple accounts if you like to play a little bit of everything.

Edited by Lebler

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Perhaps people complaining about P2W at every chance they get should clarify their stance and offer up solutions that are feasible. Any development company needs a steady flow of income to generate more content down the line, or even just to get the server lights on.

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5 minutes ago, Lebler said:

I didn't back the game because I had to choose one particular path, when I backed the game I was going to be able to have multiple character slots to fulfill multiple rolls NOT because that is what is needed to succeed but because that is what I enjoy. Granted I understand that things change and I am fine with it, I just think the VIP sub needs to be enchanced.

I think the VIP is a fine value but, again, they are looking at ways to improve it. That's a separate issue from multiple accounts though.

5 minutes ago, Lebler said:

SWG is a bad counter example because SWG had plenty of people with multiple accounts because you were limited to a certain amount of profession you could learn on one toon. What they didn't have a lot of were people multiboxing with those accounts which I think is what they mean to be talking about when they say its not a problem.

SWG had hardcore players with multiple accounts, but it wasn't the majority of people. It doesn't matter whether they are multiboxing or not.

5 minutes ago, Lebler said:

In crowfall we are not limited to how much we can learn on one account but we are limited in the sense that the time based progression requires you to buy multiple accounts if you like to play a little bit of everything.

Again, you are not supposed to be able to do everything. You actually CAN do a little bit of everything if you want, but you won't be the best at any of them. Jack of all trades, master of none... or specialized. That's the choice. I don't know how many ways to say it. The game is intentionally designed for people to be specialized and to NOT be able to do everything! It's the entire design of the system. They don't want you to do everything. You are supposed to pick a couple things to do and specialize in it, and you rely on other people (like your guild) for the rest. If you want to do everything... that's your issue. The game doesn't and will not support it.

Also, over time multiple accounts will get less valuable as you finish up trees and can train others on a single account. The fact that you are not limited to a couple things like you were in SWG is a great argument AGAINST using multiple accounts in the long run.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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10 minutes ago, zinnie said:

Perhaps people complaining about P2W at every chance they get should clarify their stance and offer up solutions that are feasible. Any development company needs a steady flow of income to generate more content down the line, or even just to get the server lights on.

They have a cash shop with items up to $7,000. They have a VIP subscription with enough benefits that some of us already are planning to pay for it, but they are also considering ways to make it more appealing.

I'm all for them adding any amount of crap for cash... as long as it doesn't affect gameplay. No skill training, no boosts, no resources, etc. Sell cosmetics and the occasional convenience item.

Look at Path of Exile... no pay to win at all. Not a single thing that affects gameplay. Cosmetic items and stash tabs, that's it. Not only have they been able to stay alive, but they've seen massive growth and release new content every couple months. Hell, they just announced their next expansion coming this summer (100% free) that increases the number of story acts from 4 to 10. That's 150% increase in story content in a free expansion. That's how much money they are making selling only cosmetics and stash tabs, no pay to win crap.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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4 minutes ago, Svenn said:

They have a cash shop with items up to $7,000. They have a VIP subscription with enough benefits that some of us already are planning to pay for it, but they are also considering ways to make it more appealing.

I'm all for them adding any amount of crap for cash... as long as it doesn't affect gameplay. No skill training, no boosts, no resources, etc. Sell cosmetics and the occasional convenience item.

Look at Path of Exile... no pay to win at all. Not a single thing that affects gameplay. Cosmetic items and stash tabs, that's it. Not only have they been able to stay alive, but they've seen massive growth and release new content every couple months. Hell, they just announced their next expansion coming this summer (100% free) that increases the number of story acts from 4 to 10. That's 150% increase in story content in a free expansion. That's how much money they are making selling only cosmetics and stash tabs, no pay to win crap.

You really are terrible at this... You are comparing not just two different genres, two different games and two different styles.  Why don't you give us a list that would make VIP worth it? Every single time some has something, you respond with "P2W". You clearly don't know any better if you think this game will live off of people buying more accounts... ViP is what will keep this game alive.

Edited by Handies

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3 minutes ago, Handies said:

You really are terrible at this... You are comparing not two different genres, two different games and two different styles.  Why don't you give us a list that would make VIP worth it? Every single time some has something, you respond with"P2W.

You mean, like this list I already gave? 

https://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/15003-vip-benefits-devs/&page=10#comment-327598

Quote

 

If you want to improve the value of VIP make it things like

  • extra cosmetic options for your characters (special outfits or customization options each month, VIP specific colors, etc)
  • some extra bank space (that'll make up for the extra storage space from a second account)
  • customizable tabs for your bank (name/color)
  • special forum badge
  • mini-pets
  • VIP specific emotes
  • VIP specific housing decorations (non-functional cosmetic stuff)

or similar things. Not more skill training. Not more resources. Not anything that actually affects your power level in any way.

 

And you are pretending as if the cash shop doesn't even exist. It's not just accounts and VIPs. That's only one part of the revenue.

Edited by Svenn

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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Just now, Svenn said:

That is what you call "worth it"? Why the hell would I spend $15 a month for emotes, forum badge, mini pets. The only thing some people may even care about decor and cosmetic.  So 4 of 7 have potential. Why don't you try again....

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