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ViP benefits @Devs?


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7 minutes ago, Sciocco said:

Sounds like the unnecessary vessel system is having unintended consequences...

Not too late to drop it.;)

 

Also reorganize the skill trees, thanks.
 

I'm curious what you think is an unintended consequence?

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I still hate the wild overuse of the wildly non-specific reference to "pay to win." It's not useful at all in this context: VIP value relative to the alternate options  (alternate accounts) available

My guildmate facerip and I have already solved this problem.  Change VIP from 1General3AT trains to 2G2AT or 3G1AT.  This makes multi-accounting vastly inferior and people still have a way to get VIP

Not really in favour of the highlighted options. Those are pay to win. VIP status should only add convenience, account services and cosmetics but not give in-game advantage.

22 minutes ago, Svenn said:

They sustain themselves with only cosmetics. It doesn't matter what your game is, selling power in your game (which is exactly what was asked above, I quote "Most people leaning more into the PvP mentality want statpadding in their VIP") only hurts the quality and integrity of the game.

I never said that. I think you are getting confused who you are quoting. 

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27 minutes ago, Papito said:

I never said that. I think you are getting confused who you are quoting. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did. But it was what was being asked in the thread.

36 minutes ago, Sciocco said:

Making VIP almost useless.

Why are you spamming this thread?

Except it's not almost useless. Even if you don't see the value it doesn't matter because it's really no different than it was before the vessels were introduced, so it's not a consequence of that.

And I'm not spamming anything. I'm responding to comments. What's wrong with that?

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2 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did. But it was what was being asked in the thread.

Except it's not almost useless. Even if you don't see the value it doesn't matter because it's really no different than it was before the vessels were introduced, so it's not a consequence of that.

And I'm not spamming anything. I'm responding to comments. What's wrong with that?

3A/3G vs. 3A/1G is a big difference.

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46 minutes ago, Sciocco said:

3A/3G vs. 3A/1G is a big difference.

It's been a while, but were general skills even a thing before? I can't remember how it was specified, but would it not have been a combination of 3 A and G total... so less than we get now?

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2 minutes ago, Svenn said:

It's been a while, but were general skills even a thing before? I can't remember how it was specified, but would it not have been a combination of 3 A and G total... so less than we get now?

Three characters.

1A/1G, each

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7 hours ago, Lebler said:

... I just want the ability to play all 3 different options of the game effectively at launch without having to log onto other accounts.

If ACE decides that makes the game better overall and changes the skill training system to allow that, I'd be fine with it - as long as everyone gets that benefit. It's too risky to put something so controversial in VIP. Even if some people will pay, alot of people will hate it and feel it's P2W.

Games like GuildWars2 and Path of Exile have done well without any subscription, only cosmetic/convenience cash shop. CF will also have an optional sub for some additional revenue. The business model does work if players enjoy the game, there is no reason to compromise the design for more money.

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1 hour ago, Sciocco said:

Three characters.

1A/1G, each

Found it in an old FAQ. It used to be 3 per character with a primary, secondary, and tertiary that all advanced at different rates.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/posts/1159794

Quote

How quickly do skills advance?

These numbers are still being balanced, but we're generally going for something like this: to reach 100% level with any skill takes 1 month of primary training, 2 months with secondary, 3 months with tertiary.  

Of course, these could all be in the same tree as far as it's listed... so you could do 3 points into a single archetype to speed it up. Which means the most efficient way back then was still multiple accounts for anything beyond 3 primary skills, and general skills and archetype skills shared the same training. You still had to choose between weakening your character for crafting or going dedicated crafter for a character. You got 3 characters, but that means if you wanted to do crafting or gathering or whatever that character was missing out on archetype/combat training so you had less than 3 archetypes in order to craft.

For the record, if they decided to change the amount of training you get, I'm fine with it (assuming it's not "everyone can do everything"). However, I would be very upset if that training was tied to VIP. As they stated, the current system of multiple archetypes gives more choices for archetypes, not more power or the ability to actually do other things.

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So what we have figured out 15 pages in to this thread is that Multi-accounts are still a better and cheaper option than VIP, even with the additions @Svenn made earlier. You'll need at least 5-6 accounts to be viable at CF when each account only gives 1 General Training Slot. You'll need a dedicated harvester, crafter, Runemaker (for Discipline Runes), Necromancer (for better vessels) and a Combat Specialist for PvP. This is just the absolute Minimum.

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2 minutes ago, zinnie said:

So what we have figured out 15 pages in to this thread is that Multi-accounts are still a better and cheaper option than VIP, even with the additions @Svenn made earlier. You'll need at least 5-6 accounts to be viable at CF when each account only gives 1 General Training Slot. You'll need a dedicated harvester, crafter, Runemaker (for Discipline Runes), Necromancer (for better vessels) and a Combat Specialist for PvP. This is just the absolute Minimum.

Or you have friends/guild members instead of being a loner. You know, either way.

Edited by Svenn

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Just now, Svenn said:

Or you have friends/guild members instead of being a loner. You know, either way.

 

So we are back to the insults, thats fine. 

 

The problem is that you aren't seeing the problems with the multi-account vs VIP issue and you are making it strictly into a VIP vs P2W argument instead, which is a good discussion in itself but won't solve the main problem.

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5 minutes ago, zinnie said:

 

So we are back to the insults, thats fine. 

 

The problem is that you aren't seeing the problems with the multi-account vs VIP issue and you are making it strictly into a VIP vs P2W argument instead, which is a good discussion in itself but won't solve the main problem.

The problem is that you don't understand that multi-accounts and VIP are NOT the same issue. You are trying to solve multi-accounts with VIP and that's not the right way to go about it.

Also, that wasn't an insult. It was pointing out that the game is based around groups of players and not solo players. And I'm not sure when I insulted someone before that you think we're "back" to insults?

Edited by Svenn

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14 hours ago, Svenn said:

 

Again, for the one millionth time, this is entirely intentional. Crafting is not a side activity in this game. It is a full time activity. Dedicated crafters are supposed to be a thing. You are NOT supposed to be able to both craft and fight (well, at least). It's a choice you need to make. It's an intentional design decision. So, what you are calling a problem is, in fact, exactly the design of the system. They WANT people to have to choose to be a crafter or a fighter. They WANT people to have to rely on other people. They WANT harvesters to need someone to defend them.

 

They can WANT it all they like, and TRY to build systems to express that WANT, but the fact of the matter is I can easily bypass that WANT, with 60$, and dramatically undermine the value and desire to get VIP.

They are fighting human nature on this one, to far to high of a degree.  Yes other games make it too easy, yes players should be able to have a dedicated role, but NO you will not ever stop players from being able to do everything. I know one guy already has 30 ALT's, because that's his professed play style. 

So why not make the base account more attractive, so that less people need ALT accounts to fulfill the very human desire to try other aspects of the game than just one?

It's going to happen one way or the other, so building it INTO the skill tree design from the get go, rather than fighting human nature would be a much better way to go.

Even if it's simply allowing people to attach more crows to one account, so they could share any other VIP benefits that come along while still needing multiple crows to get all the skills they want, that would be something.  But this fingers in the ears, "La La La La I can't see the alts so they don't exist", is not going to change things.

There is no value you can possibly give to VIP that does not add power, or give some other tangible benefit or advantage, that is not instantly and dramatically outweighed by simply buying another account.  You can't, EVER, because time is valuable to people, and since training is based on time, LOTS AND LOTS OF TIME, 60$ is a pittance compared to paying 7.50$ for a single archetype skill (Tier 8).

 

 

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Just now, Svenn said:

The problem is that you don't understand that multi-accounts and VIP are NOT the same issue. You are trying to solve multi-accounts with VIP and that's not the right way to go about it.

 

For 15$ a month you are able to train 3 Archetypes at the same time, but you only get to train 1 General.. This is fine since its all about P2W and all.  But I can pay 60$ which is 4 months of VIP and get one additional General training slot and 2 more AT slots making it 2Gen/4AT. That means I can train a crafter or Harvester whilst training a Combat Account.

What can VIP offer that would make someone skip what I said, and instead pay 15$ a month for 4 months? I know you've said Cosmetics, pets, skins etc and I agree, those should be in there together with Server priority and Store Discounts but it still wont be worth 15$ a month. 

I know you can make the "support the developer" argument and say that people will still pay 15$ a month even if they got 0 benefits from it, and yes I would agree since I've also spent some money supporting the development, but a better discussion would be trying to find the balance between what you call P2W and the multi-account issue.

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On 3/1/2017 at 3:40 PM, Svenn said:

Any in-game benefit that comes from money = "pay to win". The fact that you can't pay MORE to win doesn't mean it's not pay to win in the first place.

What if they made it so that you get 5 times as many resources if you were VIP? You're telling me that's not "pay to win" because you can't do it multiple times?

This is so incorrect and the thinking behind this is so toxic to games in general. You put the fear in game designers that their game will become "P2W". Its just fear mongering on a taboo word.

And no 5 times the resources then becomes the baseline of material production. If you are not VIP then you below the baseline. Its pretty simple really. SWOTR actually has a very similar model. Their VIP get full access to the games all 3 crafting profession and no restrictions on anything. Its the -baseline-. Their 'free' customers are restricted to 1 crafting profession and limited in the amount of stuff they can do in a single day.

The VIP is not Pay2Win, its the baseline for the game. 

A level of service at $15 that anyone and everyone can meet and no one can exceed is never pay2win. And if you think it is, you have never played a actual pay2win game.

 

On 3/1/2017 at 9:48 PM, Svenn said:

People will always make multiple accounts for a variety of reasons, as long as there is ANY benefit to it. ACE decided that it wasn't a large enough issue to bother with. Seeing as they have experience not only with MMO development but with similar systems I trust their judgement.

"In ACE we trust". None of us would be here if we didn't trust their judgement. But that does NOT mean that they are infallible. Theres already been a few things the community has got them to change because we felt they were going in the wrong direction.

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15 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

They can WANT it all they like, and TRY to build systems to express that WANT, but the fact of the matter is I can easily bypass that WANT, with 60$, and dramatically undermine the value and desire to get VIP.

This sums up the entire points exactly. 

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1 minute ago, zinnie said:

 

For 15$ a month you are able to train 3 Archetypes at the same time, but you only get to train 1 General.. This is fine since its all about P2W and all.  But I can pay 60$ which is 4 months of VIP and get one additional General training slot and 2 more AT slots making it 2Gen/4AT. That means I can train a crafter or Harvester whilst training a Combat Account.

What can VIP offer that would make someone skip what I said, and instead pay 15$ a month for 4 months? I know you've said Cosmetics, pets, skins etc and I agree, those should be in there together with Server priority and Store Discounts but it still wont be worth 15$ a month. 

I know you can make the "support the developer" argument and say that people will still pay 15$ a month even if they got 0 benefits from it, and yes I would agree since I've also spent some money supporting the development, but a better discussion would be trying to find the balance between what you call P2W and the multi-account issue.

Again, you are confusing the two issues. Giving value to VIP and having multiple accounts are not direct opposites to each other. VIP isn't intended to be related to power levels at all. ACE said so themselves. Multiple accounts is directly a "power level" issue. People want all the power they can get. You could try to "fix" multiple accounts with VIP (which is what you are talking about), but that just translates into directly buying power from ACE in a different way. And it doesn't work. You could make it 5 general skills and 9 archetypes for VIP and people would buy 2 accounts to be able to have all the archetypes and every crafting skill. No matter what you do, people that buy multiple accounts are going to have the advantage. What you are doing is advocating that power should be a subscription thing instead of a one time purchase, but even that doesn't "fix" multiple accounts.

You keep saying that people won't buy it if you don't add power, but I've given plenty examples of people paying (including subscriptions) for cosmetic items. People WILL pay for it. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other people wouldn't. We're going round in circles because you think the VIP has to cater to your needs in order to be viable.

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4 minutes ago, Vectious said:

This is so incorrect and the thinking behind this is so toxic to games in general. You put the fear in game designers that their game will become "P2W". Its just fear mongering on a taboo word.

And no 5 times the resources then becomes the baseline of material production. If you are not VIP then you below the baseline. Its pretty simple really. SWOTR actually has a very similar model. Their VIP get full access to the games all 3 crafting profession and no restrictions on anything. Its the -baseline-. Their 'free' customers are restricted to 1 crafting profession and limited in the amount of stuff they can do in a single day.

The VIP is not Pay2Win, its the baseline for the game. 

A level of service at $15 that anyone and everyone can meet and no one can exceed is never pay2win. And if you think it is, you have never played a actual pay2win game.

So, people that don't pay have less power than the "baseline"? And you don't see how that's the definition of "pay to win"? If you're going to do that, just make it a full sub game. What I wouldn't give for sub games to just come back with no stupid paid benefits.

Considering ACE themselves thinks that only 25% of the people will have VIP, that seems like an odd thing for the "baseline". 1/4 of your customers are at the baseline because they are paying you real money while 3/4 of your players have to struggle below the baseline.

You just accept that paying players get more power and that's okay to you. Except it leads to an uneven playing field (which in a PvP game, not a PvE game like SWTOR) is a HUGE deal.

If wanting an even playing field in a PvP game is "fear mongering" then I guess I'm a fear monger. More than likely, though, you're just trying to deflect the argument with name calling.

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1 minute ago, Svenn said:

So, people that don't pay have less power than the "baseline"? And you don't see how that's the definition of "pay to win"? If you're going to do that, just make it a full sub game. What I wouldn't give for sub games to just come back with no stupid paid benefits.

Considering ACE themselves thinks that only 25% of the people will have VIP, that seems like an odd thing for the "baseline". 1/4 of your customers are at the baseline because they are paying you real money while 3/4 of your players have to struggle below the baseline.

You just accept that paying players get more power and that's okay to you. Except it leads to an uneven playing field (which in a PvP game, not a PvE game like SWTOR) is a HUGE deal.

If wanting an even playing field in a PvP game is "fear mongering" then I guess I'm a fear monger. More than likely, though, you're just trying to deflect the argument with name calling.

Its not more power if its the baseline. And its a extremely successful business model. And there is no issue reaching a even playing field with $15 a month.

While this business model where no one gets VIP because its alot less efficient. When they can actually spend more money to get more of a advantage depending on the money spent is -actually- P2W. The more you spend the more you win. At least theres diminishing returns after like ~10 accounts.

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