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ViP benefits @Devs?


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1 hour ago, Decoy said:

pay for convenience (the lessening of time sinks) is not pay to win.  Many subscription games provide cuts to the time sink via subscription model, including things like resource boosters in gathering, duration reductions for lockouts in various other types of farming, exp bonuses, faster training (as Crowfall is doing with archetypes).  Typically this sales practice involves still pushing the gamer through the game processes they would already go through anyway, but bolstering the outcome so it takes less time.  It gets so tiring having this debate every time a new game comes out as if every developer needs to be deathly afraid of any forum-goer's extremist definition of P2W. 

Sure it is..   any advantage that you have over another player including those gained by reduced time to train is PtW...   It isn't convenience it is advantage, power, better skills faster.

 

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I still hate the wild overuse of the wildly non-specific reference to "pay to win." It's not useful at all in this context: VIP value relative to the alternate options  (alternate accounts) available

My guildmate facerip and I have already solved this problem.  Change VIP from 1General3AT trains to 2G2AT or 3G1AT.  This makes multi-accounting vastly inferior and people still have a way to get VIP

Not really in favour of the highlighted options. Those are pay to win. VIP status should only add convenience, account services and cosmetics but not give in-game advantage.

28 minutes ago, Frykka said:

First, you are not locked into any specialization, it is self imposed by the user making a decision to continue further down a certain tree or start in another.  After my experience since October, by the time the first Campaign Worlds heat up beyond skirmishing and patrolling top tier node areas most accounts will have 2 things they do well and more.   By adding a second general skill to any account you double what a single account can do...  now instead of combat and one type of harvest on an account you have combat, two harvests and vessels up to a viable level.  In the case of alts you can only take one account out into the danger zone at a time and none of them will have the versatility of having both combat AND decent harvesting AND vessels possibly to Leadership...  The power of the account is doubled compared to alts.   If you don't get that I cannot help you.

You are missing the point because you still didn't explain how it is any different for the player in either situation as far as what they are able to actually do, which is the whole point of the damn limit.  Yes "by adding a second general skill to any account you double what a single account can do," but that is already the case anyway in regards to what I, as a player, can do.  Upon adding a second specialization per account, the player can do more than one specialization activity on the same account, but the player can only do one specialization at a time, leaving their other skills idle.. you said this yourself in regards to alts but it applies in both situations.  You didn't realize that you were arguing against yourself here.  When we consider that multiple specializations per account is functionally the same for the player as the current system of incentivised multiboxing, we are just pretending that a separate login and extra inventory space and avoiding a monthly fee is somehow some huge hindrance that makes the current system somehow more acceptable.  

4 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Sure it is..   any advantage that you have over another player including those gained by reduced time to train is PtW...   It isn't convenience it is advantage, power, better skills faster.

Then the current incentivised multiboxing system and kingdom shop is very P2W by your logic. And it is fortunate the gaming industry doesn't use your extreme definition of P2W or they couldn't keep the lights on. 

 

Edited by Decoy
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44 minutes ago, Frykka said:

" now instead of combat and one type of harvest on an account you have combat, two harvests and vessels up to a viable level."

I don't want to get back into this debate, But can you explain to me how you will be able train harvesting and combat on one account? If we only have 1 general skill and we are training combat how do we get the harvesting skills also?

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22 minutes ago, Decoy said:

You are missing the point because you still didn't explain how it is any different for the player in either situation as far as what they are able to actually do, which is the whole point of the damn limit.  Yes "by adding a second general skill to any account you double what a single account can do," but that is already the case anyway in regards to what I, as a player, can do.  Upon adding a second specialization per account, the player can do more than one specialization activity on the same account, but the player can only do one specialization at a time, leaving their other skills idle...

We can lead a donkey to water...  Training in Combat AND vessels/leadership gives you improved group fighting in one package over combat OR vessels.  Combat AND excavation gives you that ability to harvest nodes WHILE THE ENEMY IS REGROUPING without switching accounts and losing your groups ability to jump back into the fight.   You simply cannot gain these advantages with separate accounts, one doing combat and the other doing vessels/excavation.   please improve your ability to project actual consequences to in game play

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22 minutes ago, Papito said:

I don't want to get back into this debate, But can you explain to me how you will be able train harvesting and combat on one account? If we only have 1 general skill and we are training combat how do we get the harvesting skills also?

 Because of the diminishing returns in the combat skill tree(s) it makes very little sense to train a T4 combat skill instead of 4 T1 excavation skills...   there is more reward to switching your general skill around to other trees than to keep digging deeper into the combat tree...   the system gives incentives to go hybrid...  switch back and forth according to the node Tier...   do combat T1s and then harvesting T1s (or vice versa), then go to the T2s in each line... I can pretty much guarantee you will realize more benefit in an equal amount of time.  Notice that I said "Viable" as opposed to saying "Optimal"...  My feeling is that gatherers will get to acquiring higher quality materials before crafters will be able to fully take advantage of the increased experimentation, this is the opportunity to either choose to get further ahead OR get your vessels or another useful skill training up a little.

Edited by Frykka

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1 hour ago, Decoy said:

Then the current incentivised multiboxing system and kingdom shop is very P2W by your logic. And it is fortunate the gaming industry doesn't use your extreme definition of P2W or they couldn't keep the lights on. 

The multiboxing right now absolutely is P2W. You want to remain competitive in combat, gathering, and crafting? Better buy three accounts! That's terrible design, and I really hope we see a rework.

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1 hour ago, ringhloth said:

The multiboxing right now absolutely is P2W. You want to remain competitive in combat, gathering, and crafting? Better buy three accounts! That's terrible design, and I really hope we see a rework.

Want to remain competitive on multiple archetypes? Better buy multiple accounts.

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3 minutes ago, Sciocco said:

Want to remain competitive on multiple archetypes? Better buy multiple accounts.

This is less of an issue, since VIP will (and should) allow training multiple archetypes. Not to mention it's not as valuable to be strong at different archetypes (providing mostly flexibility, rather than power) while being able to gather, craft, and still be able to participate in storming castles will be a huge advantage.

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2 hours ago, Frykka said:

We can lead a donkey to water...  Training in Combat AND vessels/leadership gives you improved group fighting in one package over combat OR vessels.  Combat AND excavation gives you that ability to harvest nodes WHILE THE ENEMY IS REGROUPING without switching accounts and losing your groups ability to jump back into the fight.   You simply cannot gain these advantages with separate accounts, one doing combat and the other doing vessels/excavation.   please improve your ability to project actual consequences to in game play

You can still send that kind of crafted gear to your other characters (even if not at all qualities at first, and it won't take much to give your combat character minimal vessel training for simply equip qualifications).  Multiboxers can play multiple characters at once and wouldn't even need to swap between the combat toon, not to mention the separate gathering inventory at your disposal.  Leadership buffs are shared in party, a party you can be in with yourself.  I'm sorry but the benefits FAR outweigh any negatives you might be able to think of later.  

Edited by Decoy
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15 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

This is less of an issue, since VIP will (and should) allow training multiple archetypes. Not to mention it's not as valuable to be strong at different archetypes (providing mostly flexibility, rather than power) while being able to gather, craft, and still be able to participate in storming castles will be a huge advantage.

The issue is the weapon/armor skills trained in the general section will not be optimal for certain archetypes.

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18 minutes ago, Decoy said:

You can still send that kind of crafted gear to your other characters (even if not at all qualities at first, and it won't take much to give your combat character minimal vessel training for simply equip qualifications).  Multiboxers can play multiple characters at once and wouldn't even need to swap between the combat toon, not to mention the separate gathering inventory at your disposal.  Leadership buffs are shared in party, a party you can be in with yourself.  I'm sorry but the benefits FAR outweigh any negatives you might be able to think of later.  

In a open world PvP game with player looting, playing multiple characters at once... Ok good luck with that. Just proves the point it'll be rather limited amount of players doing so, hence not really a factor and further shows making training in 2 general skills not a good idea. Making something that'll only effect a few while doing harm to the majority, isn't sound game development, IMO.

 

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1 minute ago, pang said:

In a open world PvP game with player looting, playing multiple characters at once... Ok good luck with that. Just proves the point it'll be rather limited amount of players doing so, hence not really a factor and further shows making training in 2 general skills not a good idea. Making something that'll only effect a few while doing harm to the majority, isn't sound game development, IMO.

 

Campaign rules vary and people multibox in PvP games all the time.   And stating an assertion isn't the same thing as proving a point. 

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9 minutes ago, Decoy said:

Campaign rules vary and people multibox in PvP games all the time.   And stating an assertion isn't the same thing as proving a point. 

I have no doubt people have done that, just saying it seems like common sense to me that those that do (in a PvP game) are in the minority.

That also kind of proves the point.. people will multiaccount and multibox regardless of the way the game is set up so again how does it make sense to cater to that playestyle by making it even more powerful by going into P2W territory. 

So yes VIP should and likely will get more valuable but this isn't the way.

Edited by pang
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1 hour ago, ringhloth said:

The multiboxing right now absolutely is P2W. You want to remain competitive in combat, gathering, and crafting? Better buy three accounts! That's terrible design, and I really hope we see a rework.

The problem is that the devs might not be able to rework it to the point that multiboxing doesn't have that huge an advantage without rethinking their whole design philosophy of account specialization (or provide other methods for attaining the ability to train multiple universal skills at once through something like VIP or some ingame mechanic).  So unless someone has a better idea, the people who love the specialization concept are forcing themselves to praise it despite the infeasibility of it all and stick their heads in the sand on how big of an imbalance it creates.  

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7 minutes ago, Decoy said:

The problem is that the devs might not be able to rework it to the point that multiboxing doesn't have that huge an advantage without rethinking their whole design philosophy of account specialization (or provide other methods for attaining the ability to train multiple universal skills at once through something like VIP or some ingame mechanic).  So unless someone has a better idea, the people who love the specialization concept are forcing themselves to praise it despite the infeasibility of it all and stick their heads in the sand on how big of an imbalance it creates.  

I saw an excellent idea on reddit the other day. Keep the time system mostly as is, perhaps with a few tweaks. But you can reduce the amount of time you spend training a skill by taking certain actions. Cut a tree, spend less time learning how to cut trees better. The goal wouldn't be to force people to do something they don't want to do, but rather just have skills progress faster for what they'd be doing anyway. There could also be diminishing rewards, so that spend just 30 minutes a day can get you a significant chunk of progress, but a hard cap to how much you can earn, so once you've hit, say, a 50% reduction in time, you can't reduce it any further.

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14 hours ago, ringhloth said:

I saw an excellent idea on reddit the other day. Keep the time system mostly as is, perhaps with a few tweaks. But you can reduce the amount of time you spend training a skill by taking certain actions. Cut a tree, spend less time learning how to cut trees better. The goal wouldn't be to force people to do something they don't want to do, but rather just have skills progress faster for what they'd be doing anyway. There could also be diminishing rewards, so that spend just 30 minutes a day can get you a significant chunk of progress, but a hard cap to how much you can earn, so once you've hit, say, a 50% reduction in time, you can't reduce it any further.

That is literally the opposite of the training system goal.

The goal is to allow players to ignore the training system while playing the game, and just have it automatically improve them. Adding any kind of active training negates that.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

That is literally the opposite of the training system goal.

The goal is to allow players to ignore the training system while playing the game, and just have it automatically improve them. Adding any kind of active training negates that.

You can ignore it. You can also not ignore it. It should be clear that a purely time based system won't work for a game where skills are important.

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20 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

You can ignore it. You can also not ignore it. It should be clear that a purely time based system won't work for a game where skills are important.

I don't agree.  I think the main problem right now with the system is the levels they have put towards time to train. They are soo afraid of crow level accounts being able to do everything in the skill trees, the times they have now are practically holding our heads under water to keep them from having multiple game play talents.  The time gate it too severe, and frankly not fun.

Waiting a year to reach an in game goal vs actively moving towards, is not fun game design.  If the wait was shorter, then it would not be a problem.  Personal opinion, 1 tier= 1 day, would be a much better pace.  Those tier 6 skills taking three weeks to get are just a huge drag on motivation to even care if you ever get, and frankly not even close to worth it money wise, when you realize for VIP your paying .75$ per archetype tier.  I do not think that the Myrms "Cruelty, 5% critical hit chance" is worth spending $4.5 of VIP, and many of the tier 6's are valuable than that.  

That's the real problem with the system, not passive vs active.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't agree.  I think the main problem right now with the system is the levels they have put towards time to train. They are soo afraid of crow level accounts being able to do everything in the skill trees, the times they have now are practically holding our heads under water to keep them from having multiple game play talents.  The time gate it too severe, and frankly not fun.

Waiting a year to reach an in game goal vs actively moving towards, is not fun game design.  If the wait was shorter, then it would not be a problem.  Personal opinion, 1 tier= 1 day, would be a much better pace.  Those tier 6 skills taking three weeks to get are just a huge drag on motivation to even care if you ever get, and frankly not even close to worth it money wise, when you realize for VIP your paying .75$ per archetype tier.  I do not think that the Myrms "Cruelty, 5% critical hit chance" is worth spending $4.5 of VIP, and many of the tier 6's are less so.  

That's the real problem with the system, not passive vs active.

That doesn't really solve any of the problems with a time based system, though. It just makes it so that you can get through the system faster, so the problems don't seem as bad. Ultimately, the issue is that the skill system right now provides exponential power growth (see gathering, where you gather more materials, high quality materials, faster, and for a longer time) for a linear cost growth (2 days versus 8 days). That's not really an issue in of itself, but it makes it so that skills have a huge impact on the game, and you can't fully divest something so important from in-game costs and effort without basically guaranteeing multiboxing.

Edited by ringhloth
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4 hours ago, ringhloth said:

That doesn't really solve any of the problems with a time based system, though. It just makes it so that you can get through the system faster, so the problems don't seem as bad. Ultimately, the issue is that the skill system right now provides exponential power growth (see gathering, where you gather more materials, high quality materials, faster, and for a longer time) for a linear cost growth (2 days versus 8 days). That's not really an issue in of itself, but it makes it so that skills have a huge impact on the game, and you can't fully divest something so important from in-game costs and effort without basically guaranteeing multiboxing.

The game requires a large social economic network aka guild to function.  Multiboxing does create a single player having an internal small economic network to bring to the table aka guild slaves which can give the player a small advantage in one facet of the gear progression which includes crafted disc runes and vessels.   But that guild slave is yourself in the end with certainly some limitations on your game time.   Sure, feeding your alt crafted gear into your main and having on demand usefulness is also convenience but the cost is more in your own real time than the cost of the account...   so considering the ptw as payment of how much time you invest in setting up the economic network and integrating it into a guild economy and not in terms of the hundreds spent on the accounts.  It is still play to win as well in all aspects because the required effort is also increased. 

Payment of effort is not Pay-to-Win, that win being economic and not directly connected to the combat power or ability to Win in combat through the skills trees of a single account.   While the combat skill tree node, any scouting skills and the vessels tree bring direct PvP win power and advantage, other more economic nodes only bring indirect advantage to that account in terms of gear which takes effort to create and is not permanent.  Multiboxing does not bring direct PvP power to any one account and is not Pay-to-Win. 



 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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