Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Handies

ViP benefits @Devs?

Recommended Posts

That could mean a bunch of things.. Dyes, skins, currencies for anything in the shop that can be used in game.

I suspect we could we also see them add parcels and relics as sinks to in-game currency accumulation.


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read on sub based revenue model vs. F2P and it's variations:

 

http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/

 

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been pondering this a bit more last night, and wanted to throw out an idea for a different view of skill/VIP relationships.

 

The suggestion is simple.  Instead of giving 2 archetype lines for training distribute this training as 20 (60 hrs) Tier tokens. These tokens are trade-able to other crows and the cost for individual tokens from the store is higher than VIP cost for same amount. (E.G. $1 per token so VIP is 20 for $15) Basically this becomes the microstore second currency.

 

The rules of these tokens are as follows.

 

  1. To train a skill you must spend as many tokens as that skills tier value.
  2. You can only train a skill you have the prerequisites for.
  3. If you spend tokens on a partly trained skill, you still spend the full cost.
  4. You can only spend a token on tier 5 and below skills.
  5. You can spend tokens on archetype or universal skills.
  6. There is a maximum number of total tiers you can have in universal before you are no longer allowed to spend them in universal.
  7. The value of that maximum number is based on either the highest trained crow in the universe minus 20 tiers, (2 months), or a specific hard cap that represents a single trained profession. There could also be a minimum value set at the start of the game to kick start to the fully player driven economy before players have had a chance to train any professions via time.

How this appears to add value to VIP, and the game in general is as follows.

 

Short term problems solved

  1. Testing:  Currently we are testing the skill tree, but the likelihood of us getting to the end of the skill tree and seeing problems along the way are low. We are testing the end results with potions, but by giving away tokens for testing now, and placing a high enough hard cap to drive all the way down the lines, we will be able to test the full tree itself, not just the end results.
  2. First campaign: The first campaign is going to start with everyone with no skills, so it's probably going to be shall we say rough.  By releasing all or some of kick starter VIP tokens at the start, and setting the universal limit to say 30 tiers (roughly three months), the first world will start with players actually able to do things in that world, without needing the current crafted pots crutch.
  3. Ignores the problem of double dipping.  By putting a tier 5 cap on all token purchases, players will be able to jump start Archetype training, but not fill it out or specialize.  Even VIP's will have to train the Tier 6+ skills one at a time, rather than 3 at a time. This I feel represents a better handling of the goal of "diverse but not more power" than the current model.

 

Long term problems solved and advantages

  1. Catch up mechanics: I know, I know, three year from now problem, but this does solve it now. By allowing players to only use tokens to catch up, and never to the same level as the beginning players, or with the same specialty in tier 6+ skills, it becomes a pay to catch up mechanic rather than a pay to win. New accounts in the future can simply be given a set amount of tokens with purchase to give them a start.
  2. Easy to retrain model: Retrain of a character is easy.  If they are at or above the maximum purchase limit, simply let them delete existing skills without refund, and buy new ones with tokens. Delete a tier 6 or up, and you get an allowance to use tokens on a different tier 6 skill. Their personal maximum could be locked at their current count if above universal maximum, so deleting one tier gives them access to token 1 tier.
  3. New archetypes:  We can expect new archetypes are going to be dropped in as the game progresses, players with tokens will be able to hit the ground running with those. With token training up to the tier 6 skills, or even allowing a short window to remove the tier limitation, shaving off a month or more of early training, and narrowing the gap between newly introduced archetypes and the historical one. It would kinda be crappy to have ALL new archetypes starting from a weaker position vs established. Despite the "shallow" power curve. This also gives a reason to keep VIP when all archetypes are trained, so you can save up for the new ones. This is very close to how LoL introduces new champions, and is a huge money maker for them.
  4. Guild/player support:  Guilds and other players could hold onto these tokens, and gift them to new players, in order to get them into a profession quickly.  One of the big problems with traditional MMO's is the level/equipment gap for new or returning players. This allows old VIP players to help boost the new ones. 
  5. Reduces the value of alts:  Since many players will elect to buy tokens, from the store or other players, or be directly helped by others, in getting into being viable at least one profession, the value of a non VIP account that has to step through the starting months before becoming a viable crafter etc, goes down dramatically.
  6. Makes Zerg maintenance cost/deterrent.  More than just numbers, new players will be more effective and easy to integrate into teams with support.  Small groups will have an easier time taking in and boosting a few trusted members in needed specialties, than zerg groups with few VIP's will.
  7. Can be provided as additional rewards for game victory:  If these also are allowed to be crafted in campaign worlds, but only usable and trade-able when in the EK's, it becomes another item you will want to pass through embargo, thus motivating victory even more.

I'm sure there are others, and probably a few down sides I have not thought of, but to me this just seems like a better model in general than the current VIP/archetype way of thinking.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would this topic benefit from switching gears from "what should they do to improve the value of VIP" to  "what examples of monitization should they scrutinize most to avoid common pitfalls"?  What other (essentially ftp) games should act as cautionary tales for the dev team?

 

MechWarrior Online and Crowfall share several similarities when it comes to their FTP model.  They both are charging large amounts for premium packages ($500 gold plated mechs seem to pale in comparison to $5,400 map tiles.)  There is a fairly high turn over rate of the old guard and (admittedly this is my opinion) it seems that their marketing model is to bring in as much new blood as possible, milk them for all they are worth and then encouraging them to leave as soon as possible once they have closed off their wallets.  An example of this, would be the power creep and frequent weapon re-balancing that quickly makes mechs and certain play-styles obsolete.  If Crowfall starts selling expedited skill training, or power of any kind for real money, I fear that it will quickly become a slippery slope towards runaway power inflation.

 

When SWTOR went free to play, suddenly paying members could access more crafting professions at once than non-paying members.  What was a standard feature suddenly became something that you had to pay for, I fear that skill queing is something that will be seen in a similar light.  It is something that is already programmed into the system, that would make everyone's life a little more convenient, it seems ridiculous to expect to charge a fee to access it.  There is a difference in psychology between a negative punishment and a positive reward.  I am paying to avoid feeling inconvenienced rather than paying to access something positive that adds value.

...huh?

 

That second paragraph makes no sense.

 

When SWTOR went free you now had to pay for something you got for free? How do you go from pay to play to free to play and have anything that use to be free? What? 

 

Also, there is no query for skills currently programmed in for skills. So...no, no one is getting it for free. They spoke about adding it as a VIP perk, so again its not something anyone would get for free, or ever got for free.

 

I agree that taking away something that someone once got for free is garbage, but thats not what SWTOR did, nor what ACE plans on doing. 

Edited by Vectious

CfWBSig.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read on sub based revenue model vs. F2P and it's variations:

 

http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/

 

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea. 

 

How about bulk up the EK, make those worlds the "free" game - going to need to make it a bit more like CWs without resetting, and do entry fees into CWs for better mats, etc. This would populate EKs a ton more, too.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about bulk up the EK, make those worlds the "free" game - going to need to make it a bit more like CWs without resetting, and do entry fees into CWs for better mats, etc. This would populate EKs a ton more, too.

The problem I have with the Pay to enter CW issue is this is going to be a big barrier to new players. Thats really the lense I think we should be making sure to view things from. As I detailed in a previous page (in a wall of text) there are many ways to make VIP "fair" in relation to alt accounts. This is not the main issue I see though.

 

The MAIN issue of the alt account and VIP "sub problems" is that NEW players will look at a price tag for a game, and if the game also requires other $ to be spent... Itll be a HUGE turn off for the game.

 

The ONLY way a "pay to enter CWs" system will work, is if the $50 box price comes with like 12 "tokens" (not to steal Krakken's thunder) in which it costs toekns to enter CWs. So if each CW is 1 month long. The player essentially gets a year of gaming for that $50 - if all he wants is to enter 1 CW at a time. If he wants to enter CWs with 2 ATs, now he gets 6 months of gaming etc. 

 

Now, the purchase price for CWs seems fair as now you get a long time without having to deal with it. if the player is playing a game for 1year + its likely he will pony up for more tokens. 

 

We need to not turn off new players to crowfall though - this is my primary concern with alt accounts and VIP is it will deter new players making it SEEM like Crowfall is a purchase price PLUS mandatory either VIP or an alt account.

 

This will only end up hurting all of us.

Edited by th3gatekeeper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read on sub based revenue model vs. F2P and it's variations:

 

http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/

 

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea.

 

You blew my mind there. That's definitely an interesting idea. I really like this idea. Like mctan said, this would make EKs the 'free' aka non-subbed version of the game.

 
By running free CWs, Artcraft could promote and give the free players something to look forward to. I'm gonna think some more about this idea.

Killjoy - najorin, officer

An ironically unironic Killjoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

F2P would be horrible for a game like crowfall for very obvious reasons.

 

1.  They need reliable revenue.

2.  They don't have the funding to support a bunch of players who pay nothing.

3.  They don't have the funding/resources to deal with all of the hacking + goldselling spam that comes from f2p no barrier of entry. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem I have with the Pay to enter CW issue is this is going to be a big barrier to new players. Thats really the lense I think we should be making sure to view things from. As I detailed in a previous page (in a wall of text) there are many ways to make VIP "fair" in relation to alt accounts. This is not the main issue I see though.

 

 

There would be bush league CWs for new players to cut their teeth.

 

They'd get eaten alive in the higher tiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read on sub based revenue model vs. F2P and it's variations:

 

http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/

 

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea. 

That would be interesting, like CW tickets you spend to get in them. And VIP gets a set number of free tickets a month.

 

This would sort of fix the multiple account issue, it would be alot more expensive to get access for all of those accounts.

 

Provide worth for VIP while not completely requiring it.

 

Alot of thought could be put in to this to make it really good

 

 

..oh and of course winners get a free ticket. ;)

Edited by Vectious

CfWBSig.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read on sub based revenue model vs. F2P and it's variations:

 

http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/

 

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea. 

Excellent article.  One line jumped out at me.

 

"The issue I see with subscription-based titles is the feeling of being forced to play something. If I don't use it, why would I pay for it?"

 

With the very long suggestion I gave above about subscription giving you tokens, it sort of answers this question.  

 

If I have been subbing for VIP, and not playing, at least when I come back I will have all the tokens I bought, and can immediately use them to try out the new archetype at mid "level", or further my specialization, or try something new.  If I can trade/sell them to other players, I may even be able to sell them at cost and no be out anything.

 

It is Interesting that the Crowfall model was not in the list.  B2P and sub and cash shop.  

 

I wonder if that many options is too many options.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if there has ever been a revenue model for an MMO that wasn't based on any of this, but rather used an entry fee? Like for each campaign you want to play. Seems that would take care of the feeling that "you have to play" because of the subscription. Pay for the CW you want and then take a break if you lika. Come back and play another.

 

They could be priced based on content and demand as well. I'm kind of attracted to the idea. 

 

I would easily P2P this way. Offer 1 "entry fee" for $5 or something relatively small and then larger bundles to save a buck or two per CW. Pretty much like buying more subs at a time.

 

Could still launch with $50 to get initial revenue, but dropping down to $15-25 wouldn't be the worst idea.

 

The ONLY way a "pay to enter CWs" system will work, is if the $50 box price comes with like 12 "tokens" (not to steal Krakken's thunder) in which it costs toekns to enter CWs. So if each CW is 1 month long. The player essentially gets a year of gaming for that $50 - if all he wants is to enter 1 CW at a time. If he wants to enter CWs with 2 ATs, now he gets 6 months of gaming etc. 

 

The $50 price to enter the game at all is likely to turn people way as any further ongoing costs. If CW entry was $5 ish, would make more money monthly than their estimated 25% VIP. If a decent amount went further for 2-3 CWs, this would bring the profit up even more. Although I like the suggested idea of VIP providing "entry tokens" as well so it would be better to drop $15 to get some extra perks instead of just paying per CW. The $50 price won't last long imo, but including tokens would be good.

 

That would be interesting, like CW tickets you spend to get in them. And VIP gets a set number of free tickets a month.

 

This would sort of fix the multiple account issue, it would be alot more expensive to get access for all of those accounts.

 

Provide worth for VIP while not completely requiring it.

 

Alot of thought could be put in to this to make it really good

 

..oh and of course winners get a free ticket. ;)

 

Yes please.

 

B2P and sub and cash shop is exactly what WoW has. The WoW cash shop is mainly account services and character transfers etc. but it works.

 

As the article pointed out, that model only appears to work for WoW/FFXIV due to self publishing and not having the overhead that most games have, on top of being giant IPs and outliers in general.

 

Why ACE believes CF can follow this model is beyond me when every other major AAA mmo with a lot more resources has gone F2P/Sub. Only reason I can see is to get initial game sales and then go F2P as well. Or they really believe there will be enough new players paying full price, plus their estimated 25% subs, plus whales buying vanity castles forever.

Edited by APE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The majority of ideas on this thread are so ridiculously Pay to Win I'd rather have a required sub.

Extra AT training is only even a consideration because ATs are mutually exclusive, however the universal skills are not. Universal skills stack and apply all the time. There are exploration skills that notably benefit combat for example. Those things stack and if VIP players can train both at the same time... they are basicly gaining power twice as fast as all non-vip memebers.

Additionally one of the main points of this game is to make people rely on each other, if you allow people to train combat and crafting at the same time a lot of that goes out the window.

Any VIP effect that allows you to train universal skills faster is Pay to Win.

I'd rather just pay a monthly sub, then at least I'd know everyone was on the same playing field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

VIP only campaigns would work. Not with greater rewards or anything... but perhaps a greater chance of cosmetic rewards perhaps such campaigns have new or beta rulesets / parcels.

For example a campaign with a lot of magical floating islands. You don't gain anything special for playing in it... but you'd sure as hell pay the $15 bucks to be in it, that map would be awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additionally one of the main points of this game is to make people rely on each other, if you allow people to train combat and crafting at the same time a lot of that goes out the window.

 

 

That is emotional hyperbole and not factually correct.

 

The definition of "a lot" is "a large number or amount; a great deal."  

 

There are currently 20 different specialization lines in universal, any one of which will take over six months to complete.

 

1/20 vs 2/20 is by no definition "a large number or amount".

 

Especially if combat is moved to it's own line rather than shared in universal.  Then if you finished combat you still would not be able to double dip into the economy focused specialties.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The $50 price to enter the game at all is likely to turn people way as any further ongoing costs. If CW entry was $5 ish, would make more money monthly than their estimated 25% VIP. If a decent amount went further for 2-3 CWs, this would bring the profit up even more. Although I like the suggested idea of VIP providing "entry tokens" as well so it would be better to drop $15 to get some extra perks instead of just paying per CW. The $50 price won't last long imo, but including tokens would be good.

 

 

Yes please.

 

 

 

 

There is the option to build the worlds with no entry fee, but to charge it if you want to progress past a certain point.

 

So for example you could enter any world, but if you wanted to use the crafting stations you would have to pay.  Players not using the crafting stations could get in free, but at least a few from every guild would need to spend a couple of bucks.

 

BTW, has anyone got actual number on the assumption that people who pay 50$ up front will in fact be turned off by having to pay periodically a 5$ world entry fee?  

 

I think it's an assumption that is not necessarily founded in reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The majority of ideas on this thread are so ridiculously Pay to Win I'd rather have a required sub.

 

Extra AT training is only even a consideration because ATs are mutually exclusive, however the universal skills are not. Universal skills stack and apply all the time. There are exploration skills that notably benefit combat for example. Those things stack and if VIP players can train both at the same time... they are basicly gaining power twice as fast as all non-vip memebers.

 

Additionally one of the main points of this game is to make people rely on each other, if you allow people to train combat and crafting at the same time a lot of that goes out the window.

 

Any VIP effect that allows you to train universal skills faster is Pay to Win.

 

I'd rather just pay a monthly sub, then at least I'd know everyone was on the same playing field.

 

You can quite literally already acquire far, far more of the benefits you describe as "pay to win", for far, far less money by simply buying alternate accounts and ignoring VIP (as most players will under the current system).

 

Its a thing. Its real. You can ignore it, but it's still there.

 

So what you're saying in truth is something like:

 

 

 

The majority of ideas on this thread are so ridiculously Pay [MORE] to Win [LESS THAN UNDER THE CURRENT MODEL THAT] I'd rather have a required sub.

 

With the inadvertent kicker that there is FAR, FAR less sustained revenue from VIP to fund ongoing development of the game based on the idea you are advocating.

 

I do agree with you on the subscription. I'd rather see that too. Hey, why don't we call the subscription "VIP" and just allow players who don't want to pay the sub to play for free, but restrict their training to only 1 AT and 1 general skill?  :P Once they get a taste, maybe they'll get with the program and buy some VIP with in-game items or cash, just like those who subscribe.

Edited by coolwaters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked the phone app idea i saw somewhere. The idea i saw was making a app to manage skills but i thought that was too little. Reading this thread i had a few ideas that could also be implemented in that VIP app like including the ingame chat and PMs, EK management and whateverthesocksyoucanthinkof that could be useful to have acess while doing real life stuff.

 

For me it is a nice VIP perk that doesnt impact gameplay. Talking with guildies/friends while in the job/college by itself would make me sub VIP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any VIP effect that allows you to train universal skills faster is Pay to Win.

 

I'd rather just pay a monthly sub, then at least I'd know everyone was on the same playing field.

 

Too late, people already spending thousands on items that can potentially be traded in/out of game for whatever.

 

For me, training Blacksmithing and Farming at the same time or faster doesn't directly impact "winning" as much as buying a full set(s) of good gear, vessels, mounts, 500 apples. Obviously just my opinion as it all impacts gameplay one way or another allowing someone to pay more for more.

 

There is the option to build the worlds with no entry fee, but to charge it if you want to progress past a certain point.

 

So for example you could enter any world, but if you wanted to use the crafting stations you would have to pay.  Players not using the crafting stations could get in free, but at least a few from every guild would need to spend a couple of bucks.

 

BTW, has anyone got actual number on the assumption that people who pay 50$ up front will in fact be turned off by having to pay periodically a 5$ world entry fee?  

 

I think it's an assumption that is not necessarily founded in reality.

 

Even offering a few CWs that had entry fees might potentially change things a lot, interested if the devs see this idea and what they think.

 

My assumption is that simply having a $50 game price will deter some from playing when so many other games are F2P or offer cheap entry these days, along with trials.

 

Even with EA, betas, no NDA, etc and lots of visibility for those looking, it can still be a barrier. I'd at least drop it to $20-25 at "launch" to attempt to draw those that haven't already backed, invested, played during "soft launch" and paid full price.

 

If the game price included some CW "entry tokens," to compensate (5?), probably look better than $50 for entrance to game, then $5 per CW. To me that seems greedy. I know I like to think I'm getting a "deal."

Edited by APE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...