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EK will be the main producer of "low end stuff" (stone, wood et tal) - vital to the Crowfall Economy


Ironmike
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I have seen some discussion that EK will be devoid of meaningful harvesting and production. This is fundamentally impossible for a functional economy.It is a classic misinterpretation of rarity as demand or scarcity.

For an example, let's look at Eve online, it has a very similar resource structure and design as Crowfall. Hi-sec (no/nil PvP) has lots of "low value" rocks and ores. Low and null-sec (open PvP) has this also with the rarest ores and rocks.

Does anyone export the low-grade ores and rocks from null or low-sec (an open PvP area) to a non-pvp area? Hell no. In some cases the low grade stuff is imported to the open PvP area!

This happened SWG as well. In SWG low grade ore was in high demand not because of how rare it was or easy to get, or even how plentiful, but because to build houses and stuff so much was needed. Those who figured out how to get the most in the least amount of time with zero PvP risk were rewarded.

If you need alot (which is usually the case in building) of low grade stuff, and you spend time and effort harvesting it in a hi risk open PvP area, you are not only using your harvesting capital (time, people and caravans getting something low grade when it could have been spent on high grade), you are also pulling folks to unnecessarily defend when they could be raiding others harvesting hi-value stuff. A double shot in the foot.

Heck, if it's possible, groups will import low grade bulk materials to build fortifications in the campaign world's. Setting up quickly when you land in a hostile environment is essential.

Meanwhile, back in EK, harvesting, production and trading of bulk "common" commodities will be the economic engine. Housing and building is the thing of value in EK, which will require lots of low-grade stuff.

So the name of the game in EK is bulk. How fast can you extract, trade and distribute. What are the respawn rates of harvesting areas. How many peeps, alts, 2nd accounts can you farm 24/7.

And if this does not happen, the cost of goods sold will be so astronomical that 75℅ of the player base will leave, with the rest of the 25℅ leaving shortly thereafter (fundamental MMORPG - interdependence of players and player style).

So I am looking forwaed to robust trade in EK where all will participate, with the only restriction of the amount of time, (not where) play occurs.

 

EDIT - Here is a Video!

 

Video%20splash%20page_zpsjn6lw1gl.jpg

Edited by Ironmike
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Maybe grey and white quality mats are good for other EK buildings, but down in the campaign worlds if someone is going to be chucking rocks at my fortifications then I think I would prefer improved durability from better mats / experimentation / blueprints.  Also, trying to squeeze a big building component into a limited CW import box may not make as much sense as bringing a bunch of perfect blueprints.

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EKs won't have any POIs, so they won't have ways to get large amounts of materials. You'd probably be far better off to harvest inside outer band campaigns and export as much as you can. Even if you don't win, you will still get a percentage of your export.

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I love this post; it shows how the EKs can and should be an integral part of the world/universe and not just a housing experimentation.  I have always thought of the EKs as the hi-sec of Crowfall.  To that end, the EKs and CWs should have a way for trade to flow freely between them.  Yes the embargoes need to be kept, but maybe there can be an embargo period for all campaigns on a monthly basis.

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EKs won't have any POIs, so they won't have ways to get large amounts of materials. You'd probably be far better off to harvest inside outer band campaigns and export as much as you can. Even if you don't win, you will still get a percentage of your export.

Production on lots of little 100℅ safe 24/7 mats independently and not tied up in a vault for long periods will always be larger per unit time than,

 

trying to extract the same mats while dealing with PvP, coordinating with other players, (not only from a social standpoint, also theft and betrayal or just plain being unavailable when you are) through a pipe that is only on once in a blue moon .

 

I would agree if there is a system that would help get more folks to the campaign areareas, this would be it, ninja looting is certainly viable, (but again, you aren't going to ninja loot grey mats!)

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Only flaw in the argument is the limited amount of stuff you can take with you to the CW worlds. Taking low quality material for building castles will just get them tore down by people heavily outfitted with very nice gear and weapons.

 

The import rules basically breaks this loop. It will be interesting to see what changes to fix the break.

 

Or they make the import not a ratio of weight and more of a ratio of something like quality points, but that sort of seems entirely counter productive to targeting good resources and how crafting works.

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To that end, the EKs and CWs should have a way for trade to flow freely between them.

I would go so far to say a input pipe from EK to groups or someone you care about in the campaign not only adds value to all playstyles, but is essential for the economy.

 

Think care package at the least, a strategic pipeline option at its grandest. Of course there would be an embargo time.

 

Could even RP it, the temple and followers of a diety make offerings of (low rarity, but needed commodities like a bunch of apples). They sacrifice it on an alter for their braves in the campaign, and via divine intervention, the temple's target recieve a bunch of apples somehow, making that player's (or group/army) day, knowing there are all these folks "back home" who are thinking about them and helping their effort in a real way.

 

Or another way to spin it for the younger crowd, like those gifts from "sponsors" in Hunger Games. While it may have little game currency, it has high social currency and thus valuable.

Edited by Ironmike
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Production on lots of little 100℅ safe 24/7 mats independently and not tied up in a vault for long periods will always be larger per unit time than,

 

That looks like an assumption disguised as a statement of fact.

 

It may be true, but I don't think you can say it will "always" be true.

Edited by Jah

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I have seen some discussion that EK will be devoid of meaningful harvesting and production. This is fundamentally impossible for a functional economy.It is a classic misinterpretation of rarity as demand or scarcity.

 

For an example, let's look at Eve online, it has a very similar resource structure and design as Crowfall. Hi-sec (no/nil PvP) has lots of "low value" rocks and ores. Low and null-sec (open PvP) has this also with the rarest ores and rocks.

 

Does anyone export the low-grade ores and rocks from null or low-sec (an open PvP area) to a non-pvp area? Hell no. In some cases the low grade stuff is imported to the open PvP area!

 

This happened SWG as well. In SWG low grade ore was in high demand not because of how rare it was or easy to get, or even how plentiful, but because to build houses and stuff so much was needed. Those who figured out how to get the most in the least amount of time with zero PvP risk were rewarded.

 

If you need alot (which is usually the case in building) of low grade stuff, and you spend time and effort harvesting it in a hi risk open PvP area, you are not only using your harvesting capital (time, people and caravans getting something low grade when it could have been spent on high grade), you are also pulling folks to unnecessarily defend when they could be raiding others harvesting hi-value stuff. A double shot in the foot.

 

Heck, if it's possible, groups will import low grade bulk materials to build fortifications in the campaign world's. Setting up quickly when you land in a hostile environment is essential.

 

Meanwhile, back in EK, harvesting, production and trading of bulk "common" commodities will be the economic engine. Housing and building is the thing of value in EK, which will require lots of low-grade stuff.

 

So the name of the game in EK is bulk. How fast can you extract, trade and distribute. What are the respawn rates of harvesting areas. How many peeps, alts, 2nd accounts can you farm 24/7.

 

And if this does not happen, the cost of goods sold will be so astronomical that 75℅ of the player base will leave, with the rest of the 25℅ leaving shortly thereafter (fundamental MMORPG - interdependence of players and player style).

 

So I am looking forwaed to robust trade in EK where all will participate, with the only restriction of the amount of time, (not where) play occurs.

 

You made many assumptions without taking into account the content of this video.

 

https://youtu.be/4RT90Vb5m7o?t=172

 

"Factories only live in the campaign worlds."

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You made many assumptions without taking into account the content of this video.

 

 

"Factories only live in the campaign worlds."

You made many assumptions without taking into account the content of this video.

 

 

"Factories only live in the campaign worlds."

It's the SWG craft system, factories just automates the crafting process, (and has some neat things for duplicating amazing a via blueprints).

 

So it's just a time compressor, it does not prohibit crafting. EK players can and will crank out more building parts and buildings, tables etc in 100℅ security than any factory elsewhere.

 

Do not underestimate a bunch of furries who need buildings, decor and props for an in game wedding a week away lol.

 

And all the commodities they consume will come from EK. Think of EK as China. Huge human capital.

Edited by Ironmike
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It's the SWG craft system, factories just automates the crafting process, (and has some neat things for duplicating amazing a via blueprints).

 

So it's just a time compressor, it does not prohibit crafting. EK players can and will crank out more building parts and buildings, tables etc in 100℅ security than any factory elsewhere.

 

Do not underestimate a bunch of furries who need buildings, decor and props for an in game wedding a week away lol.

 

Did you watch the video?

 

Factories produce thousands of raw resources in one shot. Crafting stations are probably what you think of as "factories", which is not correct.

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It's the SWG craft system, factories just automates the crafting process, (and has some neat things for duplicating amazing a via blueprints).

 

So it's just a time compressor, it does not prohibit crafting. EK players can and will crank out more building parts and buildings, tables etc in 100℅ security than any factory elsewhere.

 

 

The overwhelming benefit of factories is decreasing the variance in final products

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Did you watch the video?

 

Factories produce thousands of raw resources in one shot. Crafting stations are probably what you think of as "factories", which is not correct.

I watched the video. "Factories" are a bit of a misnomer. Really just a harvester in steroids.

 

So some definitions - what we are talking about right now is raw resources, (Before I was talking about not just raw resources). K?

 

At any rate, the key word if you notice is scale. The other very key point brought up was distribution. 1 tree chop 3 wood, one "raw material factory" chop 3000 wood.

 

Time compressor. I agree it is needed in a temp world with open PvP, (exactly what we had in Cataclysm in Shadowbane), But even with local production of raw resources at 1:3000, EK production will still be more in EK, because there are 10000 axes swinging 24/7 with no interruptions or risk, and free unlimited distribution pipeline. The distribution pipe from CW is limited (among other things), and time is limited in CW.

Edited by Ironmike
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Different fly on the wall video.

 

 

Perfect thanks! Raph brought this up and the value of the surplus harvesting materials. Heres the video!

 

Video%20splash%20page_zpsjn6lw1gl.jpg

Edited by Ironmike
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The overwhelming benefit of factories is decreasing the variance in final products

 

True, what I am talking about is the stuff that goes into the factories!

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That looks like an assumption disguised as a statement of fact.

 

It may be true, but I don't think you can say it will "always" be true.

 

Well would you say any of these things are not true?

 

Production on lots in EK are100℅ safe

Players in EK can mine/farm/etc 24/7 without needing a group

Stuff from harvesting in EK is not tied up in a vault for long periods 

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Yeah the EK will maybe be the major source of Low end mats but not because you can harverst freely but because the CW will focus on the better stuff. There is no point joining a full PvP game if all you can bring home is low end stuff. If anything the low end stuff will be used during the campaign and the good stuff will be exported.

 

Also i dont think EK harvesting would beat the volume gained from a POI, i mean like said above a tree gives 5 mats but a POI gives 3000 while the tree takes 20 secs to harvest and the POI will probably takes 6 hours MAX  so if you do the math you can see that POIs are worth waaaay more if you dont plan to make a party and harvest trees for hours to end in the EK.

 

The point is unless Botting makes it to the game (hope not) or a lot of people have waaay too much free time EK harversting wont be nothing big like have fun not playing the game...

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Perfect thanks! Raph brought this up and the value of the surplus harvesting materials. Heres the video!

 

Video%20splash%20page_zpsjn6lw1gl.jpg

How did you watch that and come to the conclusion that the majority of low quality resources will be obtained in the EK?

 

At no point does either Blair or Raph say where the resources are coming from. All they are talking about is how they will be used.

Edited by Arkade
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How did you watch that and come to the conclusion that the majority of low quality resources will be obtained in the EK?

 

At no point does either Blair or Raph say where the resources are coming from. All they are talking about is how they will be used.

Confirmation bias?

 

I also watched that video and came to the exact opposite conclusion. EK resources are for two things.  

 

To build the most basic of weapons out of slag so you can enter CW's with something. This probably includes a starting amount of food in many campaign worlds.

To provide slow resources through standard harvesting so you can pay EK upkeep, and create building blocks for your kingdom buildings if you don't mind doing it the long way, instead of waiting for embargo to come in.

 

It's not meant to be any kind of economic engine, except for those who are entirely content to whack at cobblestone and trees in kingdom and play leggo kingdoms. I have no doubt there are a sub set of players (Achiever/Socializers) that fall into that category, so more power to them if that's what they enjoy.

 

The idea that entrance rules for CW will allow players to gain any kind of advantage based on EK production, well that is the single biggest assumption being made here, that the EK productivity will back a CW.  That totally goes against the stated objectives of the game in the FAQ.

 

DOESN’T THAT CREATE BALANCE ISSUES? USING THE ANALOGY ABOVE, ISN’T THIS LIKE UNCLE BOB BRINGING A BUNCH OF TANKS INTO THE NEXT GAME OF RISK, AFTER THE BOARD RESET?

  • It could, except that everyone coming into a Campaign is dealing with the same Import rules. The key to the reset mechanic isn’t “the board must be clean,” the goal is “everyone needs to start on roughly equal footing, to make the game fun.”
  •  If everyone is allowed to bring the same number of assets into a Campaign (i.e. if we can ALL bring in a few tanks) then the starting condition is still balanced.

 

This entire thread seems to be a mental construct about how the above statement simply isn't true.Notice the emphasis on the word "starting" in this FAQ.

 

That implies that once you enter a world, you are not allowed to re-import materials from the EK.  I would also think for balance sake, that NO import will allow basic materials in, otherwise an army of ATL's could simply start the game with enough materials to build fortifications instantly, working around the goal of a balanced starting position. Of course with factories producing thousands of building materials in one go, specifically more than any one can carry, the amount needed for even the simplest structure could be so prohibitively large as to prevent that tactic from being economical.

 

Heck, if it's possible, groups will import low grade bulk materials to build fortifications in the campaign world's. Setting up quickly when you land in a hostile environment is essential.

The above hope/dream/claim is in direct contradiction with the FAQ, and the intent that CW's are isolated game events.  OP wants to open a second risk game and start pulling cards for himself from two piles every turn instead of one.  

 

That just ain't gonna happen.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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