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imortalis

two universal trains

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so it's been 2 months i think since i star.ted training non stop and so far i got 1% in combat principles, 5% in weapon basics, 32% in crafting basics, 17% in blacksmithing, 4% in harvesting basics and 2% in vessels. so i've touched 6 trees out of maybe 40 trees once all the universal ones become available for a combined 61%. if i wanna concentrate on combat from looking at the skill trees, to fully train i need combat principles to 100 , weapon basics, weapon familiarity and weapon competency to around 40 since i'm not gonna train both ranged and melee and either one handed or ambidex. 35% weapon styles 17 % maybe melee weapon styles, 33% armor basics 33% armor familiarity and 33 % armor competency tree if i go with only plate which i havent so far. 370 training points or so. so if it's taken me around 2 months to train 60% of mostly tier 1 and maybe a couple of tier 2 skills, it will take me at least a few years, propably more to finish training universal combat skills, since training a tier 6 skill will take so much longer. this is if i don't change my mind and start training ranged or whatever. all this to say can we make it so we train 2 universal skills at the same time? as it is it takes way too long to have just one.


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all this to say can we make it so we train 2 universal skills at the same time? as it is it takes way too long to have just one.

No thanks, fine as is.


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so it's been 2 months i think since i star.ted training non stop and so far i got 1% in combat principles, 5% in weapon basics, 32% in crafting basics, 17% in blacksmithing, 4% in harvesting basics and 2% in vessels. so i've touched 6 trees out of maybe 40 trees once all the universal ones become available for a combined 61%. if i wanna concentrate on combat from looking at the skill trees, to fully train i need combat principles to 100 , weapon basics, weapon familiarity and weapon competency to around 40 since i'm not gonna train both ranged and melee and either one handed or ambidex. 35% weapon styles 17 % maybe melee weapon styles, 33% armor basics 33% armor familiarity and 33 % armor competency tree if i go with only plate which i havent so far. 370 training points or so. so if it's taken me around 2 months to train 60% of mostly tier 1 and maybe a couple of tier 2 skills, it will take me at least a few years, propably more to finish training universal combat skills, since training a tier 6 skill will take so much longer. this is if i don't change my mind and start training ranged or whatever. all this to say can we make it so we train 2 universal skills at the same time? as it is it takes way too long to have just one.

 

How many times this has to be stated - "don't read too much into the numbers!". 

 

They are a first pass to get things working - the training duration may change, the stats increases may change, the node relationships may change. The devs have put something together to get the skill trees working.


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I think part of your concern would be curbed if they did things like:

- Allow us to train at 50% completion, rather than 100%. This would cut the time to MOVE through the tree by about 60%. (yes 60% - meaning itll take 1/3rd the time roughly).

What I would still LOVE to see happen is this system is clearly taken from EVE (or inspired by) and instead of levels 1-100 id rather just have levels 1-5.

Right now I get a level in my AT tree for "crit chance" and it gives me like .05% more crit... Frankly, this means jack crap to me. Id RATHER have levels 1-5 in which each level gave me one FULL crit chance.

Then after training levels 1-3 (of 5) I could progress to the next node and move on, netting myself 3% crit knowing the next 1% crit would mimic the current "Levels 61-80" meaning itll likely take a good chunk of time.

THIS way, each level FEELS better, is more meaningful and we can progress through the tree at a faster rate, again making us FEEL better.

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- Allow us to train at 50% completion, rather than 100%. This would cut the time to MOVE through the tree by about 60%. (yes 60% - meaning itll take 1/3rd the time roughly).

 

I have always thought this was a goal, 50% unlocks the next node.  However your assumption that it cuts the time to move through the tree is incorrect as the "time to train" goes up significantly with each tier further down a tree.  That next node must be limited to train no higher than the tier below so this has built in limitations.  You have also failed to gain the maximum out of the early tiers by not going to 100% which ties into...

Right now I get a level in my AT tree for "crit chance" and it gives me like .05% more crit... Frankly, this means jack crap to me. Id RATHER have levels 1-5 in which each level gave me one FULL crit chance.

This makes no sense, why complain about getting .05 crit in 20 min (1 tick) vs gaining .5 crit in 400 min (10 ticks), it's the same.  The reason why it is broken into 100 rather than 10 is that it gives you more chance to jump around in various trees which becomes an obvious strategy knowing the time invested is compounded (parabolic).  Crit chance is spread out in various trees and to min/max this stat you would get (example/not accurate) 2% from your AT skill, 2% from your promotion skills, 2% from combat basics, 2% from weapon basics, 2% from weapon familiarity, 2% from weapon competency = 12% maxed.   It is just SLOW and a long process to get there but players who invest in going down that road will gain that significant advantage.  Not to mention that skills WILL allow training beyond 100% for use in higher quality vessels allowing even more crit chance to be had.  

 

I think assuming the skills deeper into the tree give more is wrong, they give the same per tick as earlier skills but cost much more time which is how players coming in later can quickly gain on veterans.  All tier 1 skills are more efficient use of training than t2 and so on...   this is my understanding of the shallow skill gains, t1 gives the most for the least time invested.  There is little reason to skip T1 skills to move deeper unless it is a skill you are min/maxing or so useful to ignore (like CC duration in the combat basics tree)

 

 

Edited by Frykka

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so it's been 2 months i think since i star.ted training non stop and so far i got 1% in combat principles, 5% in weapon basics, 32% in crafting basics, 17% in blacksmithing, 4% in harvesting basics and 2% in vessels. so i've touched 6 trees out of maybe 40 trees once all the universal ones become available for a combined 61%. if i wanna concentrate on combat from looking at the skill trees, to fully train i need combat principles to 100 , weapon basics, weapon familiarity and weapon competency to around 40 since i'm not gonna train both ranged and melee and either one handed or ambidex. 35% weapon styles 17 % maybe melee weapon styles, 33% armor basics 33% armor familiarity and 33 % armor competency tree if i go with only plate which i havent so far. 370 training points or so. so if it's taken me around 2 months to train 60% of mostly tier 1 and maybe a couple of tier 2 skills, it will take me at least a few years, propably more to finish training universal combat skills, since training a tier 6 skill will take so much longer. this is if i don't change my mind and start training ranged or whatever. all this to say can we make it so we train 2 universal skills at the same time? as it is it takes way too long to have just one.

How fast do you want to reach the end of the tree? how long do you want the game to last?  A year is NOT that long in game terms...   seeing trees that take 2 years to complete makes me VERY happy.  A game where everyone reaches maxed out skills, gear, etc in 6 months is self defeating...   the Devs cannot produce new supplemental trees and new things to fight over in that short of time.   IT needs to be this slow, it is passive and produces very small gains.  

 

Think more about your individual fighting skills, you ability to play Archetypes far outweighs the passive gains or the gear...   the focus is on player skill and not on the illusion of "levels" and "gear".   Change your perspective, a paradigm shift from level progression, gear progression. 

 

Let them finish building the systems as conceptualized and then start adjusting the training times before you ask for 2 general skills.

 

In Archeage we were at end game in 2 months after launch and the game went flatline.   In Albion final beta It took 1 month to get main PvP teams into T7 gear...   these are WAY to fast progressions for my taste.  Instant gratification is for children, adults want long drawn out progression.  This means painfully slow passive skill leveling (YES!).  This follows with painfully slow access to quality materials (YES!) and a very slow gear progression dependent on those few dedicated harvesters (YES! YES!).  The game is fun to play in crap gear with minimal skills leveled as long as everyone is in crap gear with minimal skills leveled.  IF you give all those combat focused players access to harvesting skills as well, you flood the market with materials and gear progression takes off like a rocket quickly separating player stats.

Edited by Frykka

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How fast do you want to reach the end of the tree? how long do you want the game to last?  A year is NOT that long in game terms...   seeing trees that take 2 years to complete makes me VERY happy.  A game where everyone reaches maxed out skills, gear, etc in 6 months is self defeating...   the Devs cannot produce new supplemental trees and new things to fight over in that short of time.   IT needs to be this slow, it is passive and produces very small gains.  

 

Think more about your individual fighting skills, you ability to play Archetypes far outweighs the passive gains or the gear...   the focus is on player skill and not on the illusion of "levels" and "gear".   Change your perspective, a paradigm shift from level progression, gear progression. 

I mean, the game doesn't end when you hit the end of the skill tree.

 

And you sort of screw yourself out of a nice dynamic system if you make something take 2 years. You put your back up against a wall if you ever want to change anything. Talk about a wave of angry players if they spent 2 years training a tree line and it changes to something they would of never trained.

 

A person is not going to wait years to experience a part of the game. 

 

Put it in to context of harvesting, what if based on the duration and mapping of the skill tree it took 2 years before anyone could mine gold? How much garbage would that be?

 

And then we get to more content. How can you add more content if whats there already takes years to get to? And lets not pretend, new content is the only way games survive.

 

Realistically they should have a goal in mind to reach before they start creating new content, the skill training should basically parallel that goal.

 

Also, gear progression is not a thing. Progression indicates permanence of which gear, vessels, runes, etc are not permanent thus they are not progression. You COULD measure a EK as your progression....but i think those will go toward a community/guild approach.

 

I mean i guess you could look at it from a hording perceptive, person who horde the most materials wins.....i guess theres a few people take that measure of their success. But replacing a chest piece from a vendor every 2-3 days and then having enough money to opt to the purple one every 2-3 is hardly progression by any standard.

 

But honestly, the biggest issues with the skill tree are hardly the duration, its the content. I wont hammer that again, its placeholder and they still need to flush it out.

Edited by Vectious

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Obviously changing any existing skill tree post launch is inherently dangerous.  Sure, the time to train can and will be adjusted and I think the 1 to 1.3 year mark for most trees is right...   the skill trees are NOT going to change from soft launch to year 2 and will be done with skill refunds in mind if that is how the trees change.  That is not so much a worry as the forces of instant gratification driving changes to the progression speed.  I am personally in this for the long haul.  Gear progression certainly IS a thing if access to materials is something every player has and quality materials hit the market (or the GvG PvP) sooner rather than after a long wait.  Your assumption that full loot and durability removes gear progression is wrong.  If people are wearing legendary gear 2 months after soft launch we are moving way too fast.  I'd like to see people in crap common for 3 months before the first rare or better gear starts coming out of guild crafters, longer before it is for sale in EK markets because then its value is much much higher.


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Obviously changing any existing skill tree post launch is inherently dangerous.  Sure, the time to train can and will be adjusted and I think the 1 to 1.3 year mark for most trees is right...   the skill trees are NOT going to change from soft launch to year 2 and will be done with skill refunds in mind if that is how the trees change.  That is not so much a worry as the forces of instant gratification driving changes to the progression speed.  I am personally in this for the long haul.  Gear progression certainly IS a thing if access to materials is something every player has and quality materials hit the market (or the GvG PvP) sooner rather than after a long wait.  Your assumption that full loot and durability removes gear progression is wrong.  If people are wearing legendary gear 2 months after soft launch we are moving way too fast.  I'd like to see people in crap common for 3 months before the first rare or better gear starts coming out of guild crafters, longer before it is for sale in EK markets because then its value is much much higher.

You speak about a economy progression.

 

And why wouldn't someone have access to legendary materials quickly? What restriction are you seeing? Its directly linked to skills.

 

Normally it would be filter down economics as the market fills up with better and better stuff but this wont be the case. There will literally be stages when the next material exists. And it all has to do with the skill tree, the more of the plentiful resource nodes are accessed the direct result of having a chance of the next quality material.

 

All this information is readily available, i think you are missing gaps of the information.

 

And there is a count down until the next available resource quality. Its a straight, efficent line to getting all the needed plentiful resource nodes.

 

Its a skill progression, not a gear progression that causes this.

 

 

But like i said, even if it wasn't based on the skills and people had crap commons for 3 months from some weird mechanic you are envisioning, you are STILL referencing a economy progression, nothing to do with a single person. There is absolutely nothing stopping a person from starting the game 5 months in, joining a guild, and them giving him legendary items. His entire 'gear progression' that you think exists is over, he may as well quit the game.


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I have always thought this was a goal, 50% unlocks the next node.  However your assumption that it cuts the time to move through the tree is incorrect as the "time to train" goes up significantly with each tier further down a tree.  That next node must be limited to train no higher than the tier below so this has built in limitations.  You have also failed to gain the maximum out of the early tiers by not going to 100% which ties into...

 

 

This makes no sense, why complain about getting .05 crit in 20 min (1 tick) vs gaining .5 crit in 400 min (10 ticks), it's the same.  The reason why it is broken into 100 rather than 10 is that it gives you more chance to jump around in various trees which becomes an obvious strategy knowing the time invested is compounded (parabolic).  Crit chance is spread out in various trees and to min/max this stat you would get (example/not accurate) 2% from your AT skill, 2% from your promotion skills, 2% from combat basics, 2% from weapon basics, 2% from weapon familiarity, 2% from weapon competency = 12% maxed.   It is just SLOW and a long process to get there but players who invest in going down that road will gain that significant advantage.  Not to mention that skills WILL allow training beyond 100% for use in higher quality vessels allowing even more crit chance to be had.  

 

I think assuming the skills deeper into the tree give more is wrong, they give the same per tick as earlier skills but cost much more time which is how players coming in later can quickly gain on veterans.  All tier 1 skills are more efficient use of training than t2 and so on...   this is my understanding of the shallow skill gains, t1 gives the most for the least time invested.  There is little reason to skip T1 skills to move deeper unless it is a skill you are min/maxing or so useful to ignore (like CC duration in the combat basics tree)

 

 

Right now we cant progress at 50%, they have talked about allowing it, but have also talked about leaving it as is. Why it cuts the time to move through the tree is you can progress through things you dont want much faster. The time it takes to level something to 80, is the "halfway" point. So 50% I GUESSED is about 1/3rd of the time (if 80 is 50% of the time).

So sure there is some "tradeoff" in which a tier 2 level 1 is faster trained than a tier 1 level X level. If you REALLY wanted there is some formula you could run to min/max your time, but its not necessary as the benefits are moot. 

 

Yes, its the same, but youve now made it meaningless to gain a "level up" in anything. Its too small to matter. Leveling up COULD be a good feeling "Yes I leveled!" But now it means nothing since the benefits are so small. 

 

Also, please dont say you can "hop around" and thats why its 1-100. You even just admitted earlier the tier 1 skills take less and provide more bang for buck, Nobody "hops around" thats a joke.. You click 1 thing, and level it. If you are training blacksmithing, your working on that tree. Not hoping over to combat, then necro, then leatherworking etc, the entire premise of this game is "specialization" so thats generally what people do. Focus on achiving one thing in one tree.

 

The current iteration of the tree has MANY problems and its evidenced by the multiple threads that pop up daily about it. You train something and even the LOW tier skills like 2-4 take 6 days to 12 days to level to 100. So its not like people really need to be "nimble" when it comes to planning. You click a node and come back 8 days later and sure, train something else if you want.... The way your talking about it, you make it seem so much more "active" than it is... Ive been playing the alpha for a while, the passive tree has lost its luster when I started training my tier 6 abilities... takes forever. Its very bland, boring, linear and in all honesty, has very little "diversity and player choice" involved.

 

If you play a Myrm, after 6 months your tree will look 90% the same as all the other Myrms, the only "choice" you have is in terms of promotion. If you are a "blacksmith" your tree will look 90% the same as other blacksmiths, etc. Its really not very fun.

 

making it a 1-5 system makes leveling up relevant, and allows you to actually plan out "ok I want this one to level 3, this one to level 4, etc" Again, its just like EVE. I think EVE was smart to do the 1-5 system and allow people to progress what they wanted where they wanted, etc.

 

My REAL suggestions about the passive tree, I have written elsewhere so ill save this thread from that, but if you want to see them, I started a thread in General called redesinging the skill tree or something.

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You and I simply do not think the same, feel anywhere near the same about what is rewarding, or even play Crowfall for the same reasons evidently.   You miss the entire depth of the skill trees and pass it off as bland without seemingly understanding why it is as it is...   NO, your Myrm will not be the same as any other Myrm after 6 months, that is a mythstaken premise...  I won't give you details because it is yours to discern, figure out.   I get absolutely nothing, zip, nada out of "leveling up", that is the mainstay of the amusement park mmo mindset.  I get all the satisfaction out of playing to crush, dominating the field...

​Of course I switch skills as soon as I unlock a node I move each branch a small chunk at a time so I get the most for time invested...   who lets a skill tick to 100% unless it is a damn important skill (bramblecoat).  We will be fighting from the get go and getting the most skill ticks over time means jumping skill choices a lot.  Nobody in their right mind is going to specialize like you are describing...  every player will need to be jumping between at least 3 general skills trees on their main account as I see it.  If you don't see it, again I cannot help you.   Why you think you have to stick with a skill all the way to 100 is ridiculous and very short sighted.  The design is meant to make diminishing returns over time be a factor in your decisions, ignoring the low returns is your folly.  I am talking about main accounts with VIP, not alt crafting bots...   It is a planned build able to inhabit better quality vessels, have some important combat abilities and have a useful economic skill.   I will absolutely sacrifice some specialization in order to have more use and have more fun while you go log another account, and then another...  none of which can survive worth a damn in a CW (except a combat specialized main).

Edited by Frykka

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You and I simply do not think the same, feel anywhere near the same about what is rewarding, or even play Crowfall for the same reasons evidently.   

...

every player will need to be jumping between at least 3 general skills trees on their main account as I see it.

 

That's to be expected, and desired, and a scientific theory that works, called Bartle's taxonomy.  Not everyone can be happy with every system. If you expect every system you build to work for everyone as a developer, and strive for that as a goal, your game is going to fall over.

 

The trick is to make people happy with the systems that target their play style.  You don't build the killer features to make the social people happy, and you don't build the explorer features to make the achievers happy.  

 

Skill training is very much an achiever focused feature, with a bit of cross into killer because it makes them better at it.

 

Which is exactly why I am so vocal about my position in this regard, because I am highly motivated by both,  (Achiever 67% (99th%), Killer 80% (90th%)) and the feature that is supposed to be designed for people exactly like me, only serves to make me pick one or the other of my dual play styles.

 

The very feature that should appeal to me most, forces a choice that it shouldn't and makes me find a way to work against it, rather than enjoy it for what it is.

 

If you think, and you have said it in the past, that we just want our cake and to eat it too, your missing the most important part of the big picture.  That everyone, yourself included, play these games for multiple reasons, and forcing a binary choice between two combined play styles at such a restrictive and time consuming level, is just a bad plan.

 

The second statement is basically an admission that the system requires you to diversify as well as specialize.  I'm not sure what you consider reasonable, but the current time frames of training times means if you go about it that way, it will take you more than 6 months at least to have any sort of effectiveness in a trade.  Just trying to get to gold picks in the current tree, heading strait there, will take more than 3 months by my estimation.

 

Just how long do you think the average player will put up with having that kind of content well out of reach? Please answer that question.

 

How many months do you think is reasonable for a player to wait before they reach profession end content?

What % of players do you expect to drop off before they reach that time,

and how many players do you actually want to be playing the game?

 

Because it looks like to me all you want is to be the king of an empty castle, after all the "cake and eat it too" average paying players have given up waiting to find the fun achiever content.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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so we got 3 main trees in universal training; combat, crafting, harvesting. i agree to some degree that as a char i shouldn't be able to be an expert in all 3 trees. however within these trees there are lots of other skills like siege in the combat tree or animal husbandry, vessel, farming in the harvesting tree. crafting haas tons from blacksmithing to building to jewelry. i hope and pray that the game will be a huge success and will keep people entertained and glued for years, but that's not realistic. say my guild is totally organizedwe assign jobs and we have 2 stonemasons who end up not playin much or quitting altogether. (that's never happened b4)it will be annoying to try to fill that gap.  personally i'd like to train a combat and a non combat skill at the same time


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Find friends to play with. 

​This isn't meant to be 'you' completing all the trees.  If you need something you search'n'find the person(s) which are capable.  All these suggestions leading towards a faster completion of the skill-trees - Maybe this just isn't the game for you.  It's not a game in which "completion" is class related, it's campaign related. 

​These proposals to "speed" up access and completion of a tree, is imo something that would greatly ruin the whole idea of the game.  Why need others when you can be self sufficient?!?  The game revolves around -not- being alone.  Not doing everything alone.  Not being -able- to do it alone.  So while there is a great personal achivement to finishing a tree and making it look all pretty, there isn't a gamewise one.

​This shouldn't even be a VIP.
​It just shouldn't be in the game.

​These constant reappearing requests to change the skill system borders in one thing : Ppl want to be able to do it on their own and expecting skills to have a huge impact on the game.  They want these skills to buff their player to a level where newly arriving players can't kill them.
​Well ARTCraft has never said skills would have a big impact on the characters, they have in fact said the opposite.  They have stated that skills are nice to have but not so game changing that newly entering players won't be able to catch up.

​So all these posts which are started... please make them in one thread. 


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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@soulreaver, dude i realize i cant train everything. i agree with it. i shouldnt be able to. i am also not playin alone, so i get the relying on peeps to move forward in game. now can u accept the fact that for 1 reason or another 6 months down the road when u're not even 50% trained in your chosen profession of leatherworking your guild may lose half the force and u may be left without a decent runecrafter, stonemason or harvesters. and of course skills will have a pretty decent impact on the game. u're telling me crafting an amazing successful weapon forged with top tier ore with full experimentation points by a trained blacksmith will be just a tiny bit better than some generic crap a novice conjured with some crafting pots?


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If you loose an important guild member, maybe another guild made him a better offer.  Maybe that other guild you are in the campaign with sabotaged you.

​Oh yeah I can imagine it alright.  It's gonna be all important how you socialize/treat those around you.  It's not about completing a tree or having said skills.  It's about you and how you can make things work to your/guild advantage over others...

​Improvise - adapt. 

​Gonna be an awesome challenge.  Unless they gimp it cause of ppl want easy-mode.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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