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imortalis

two universal trains

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Absolutely. You should not expect safety unless you are in an EK.

 

See, I put 'measure of safety', which you instantly misinterpret as I think there should be safety.  I mean that combat tree people don't require additional support to do their 'jobs' and you are advocating that gatherers (and crafters) do...then why have Dregs at all?  Why have gatherers and/or crafters at all? I know people keep up the argument that it's not meant to be played alone, but then, again, why have Dregs at all? Especially since it has been repeatedly stated that this cw will have the best and most plentiful of said resources?

 

While i'm going to use the term 'I' here, because of how the system works, I don't intend to do gathering and crafting BECAUSE of how the system currently looks/works/acts, but if I were to play a gatherer, or crafter, why should I do either if I'm at a known disadvantage to another skill tree?  

 

You think running off people who are touted as being 'necessary' and 'essential' to game play is a wise move?  Because many seem to think that's the way to go.  You'll be left with a system where only alts are the gatherers and crafters, and eventually they too will burn out (because you will become increasingly dependent upon them). 

 

But hey, yeah, let's screw them over and be left with a bunch of people who just fight...might as well go play a MOBA or arena game at that point...

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I mean that combat tree people don't require additional support to do their 'jobs' and you are advocating that gatherers (and crafters) do...then why have Dregs at all?  Why have gatherers and/or crafters at all? I know people keep up the argument that it's not meant to be played alone, but then, again, why have Dregs at all? Especially since it has been repeatedly stated that this cw will have the best and most plentiful of said resources?

 

Combat people will need harvested materials and crafted products.

 

That you are asking "why have Dregs at all?" in this context suggests to me that you don't understand what the Dregs ruleset is.


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Your making an assumption, that there is some sort of limit on the number of players that can enter the world.

 

That does not seem to be supported by the developers intent.

 

http://crowfall.com/en/faq/campaign/#7

 

 

 

Since volume of records in a DB is basically a non-issue as a technical limitation, the only real limitation is simultaneous active players.

 

An alt training in the background in an offline state is not going to tax technical resources enough to justify restrictions, given the above statement.

Yes- and I thought that I have stated this as PART of the recommendation. In part, to also help balance the CWs as well. Impose a cap on the number of accounts that can be subscribed to the CWs.

 

Not for a "technical hardward tax" problem but for multiple reasons.

1) Balance

2) it allivates the ISSUE of simultaneous active players

3) deters alts

 

Otherwise Guild A with 500 players plays guild B with 100 players and what will that result look like... 

 

Or what happens with a Tri-faction game where you have a guild of 500 players ALL join a faction in a Cw where its balanced currently with 300-300-300 players and now overloads the hardware. Or, add to that, what happens when only 200 of those were active players but now 300 alts farming in the background creating a tax on the hardware.

 

The comment "An alt training in the background in an offline state is not going to tax technical resources enough to justify restrictions"  has ZERO to do with this topic. The topic is about how to discourage alt accounts and encourage VIP accounts and BIGGER: to encourage new players. - this has been flushed out in other threads so I wont do it here. It has nothing to do with the amount of stress accounts put on hardware while logging in once a day to set skills to train. 

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Combat people will need harvested materials and crafted products.

 

That you are asking "why have Dregs at all?" in this context suggests to me that you don't understand what the Dregs ruleset is.

 

Our definition of 'need' is divergent then. (Mine is the literal definition, yours is abstract, for clarification purposes.)

 

I understand Dregs just fine, what you seem unwilling to contemplate is that the people you want there will stop playing there.  This seems counter-productive to me.

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I understand Dregs just fine, what you seem unwilling to contemplate is that the people you want there will stop playing there.  This seems counter-productive to me.

 

Which players do I want in the Dregs that will stop playing there?


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See, I put 'measure of safety', which you instantly misinterpret as I think there should be safety.  I mean that combat tree people don't require additional support to do their 'jobs' and you are advocating that gatherers (and crafters) do...then why have Dregs at all?  Why have gatherers and/or crafters at all? I know people keep up the argument that it's not meant to be played alone, but then, again, why have Dregs at all? Especially since it has been repeatedly stated that this cw will have the best and most plentiful of said resources?

 

While i'm going to use the term 'I' here, because of how the system works, I don't intend to do gathering and crafting BECAUSE of how the system currently looks/works/acts, but if I were to play a gatherer, or crafter, why should I do either if I'm at a known disadvantage to another skill tree?  

 

You think running off people who are touted as being 'necessary' and 'essential' to game play is a wise move?  Because many seem to think that's the way to go.  You'll be left with a system where only alts are the gatherers and crafters, and eventually they too will burn out (because you will become increasingly dependent upon them). 

 

But hey, yeah, let's screw them over and be left with a bunch of people who just fight...might as well go play a MOBA or arena game at that point...

This is exactly why I remain an advocate for continued implementation of Combat OR Exploration.   If Harvesters become scarce then the economy reflects that scarcity of materials and the skill becomes highly valued enticing others to dip into that tree.  If everyone can harvest, resources will flood the market and prices will fall making crafting a low yield exercise and harvesting a simply boring thing that everyone does because they have to.  I am 100% on board for scarcity and rarity as I am one that likes the trill of a solo late night gathering run and expect to get tracked and hunted...  that is a big part of the off hours game for me.  I am pretty alert and prepared to both escape or fight depending on the set up and the numbers.  It is a cat and mouse game for the 3 am crowd.

 

Is it boring to escort harvesters as a pure combat build, maybe, there are ways to make it more structured and and exercise in command and control...   area control around the harvesting group will be a solid tactic.  Here we are talking about escorted harvesters in prime time, likely to be interrupted constantly by enemy pats, rival politics, and the carnal need to just plain mix it up with other players.

 

Safety is huge...  we don't know how the pop vs map size will play out in an actual CW but I expect that getting resources to safety/vault/bank will not be an easy task.  Players that specialize in gathering should have pretty tough skin as far as getting discouraged by a gank... play smarter, be sneakier, gathers smaller loads, stay safe, don't get caught...   gatherer types more than accept the risk, they feed on the risk, are addicted to risk.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I'm missing that "depth" too. By the looks of the forums, most of us fail to see depth in a system that literally requires no choices to be made by the player at all.

 

Kind of the opposite of deep, really.

Well since i am a min/max person at heart, going over the skill trees and how they are currently implemented, the statistically differences are so marginally small there is no depth what so ever.

 

If they open up the training restrictions per node and the training restriction for the skill trees then you may start to see deviations across archetypes that "could" be substantial. The training restrictions basicly handicap 90% of all customization.

 

Right now, there is a clear, straight line to be followed as a confessor. 

 

Whats unfortunate, is once you get to weapon basics you actually have to choose between a melee and ranged. Then a TINY bit further you have to choose between magic ranged or physical ranged.

 

So what happens here is i am forced to start training some completely useless physical ranged in order to get to the next tree to start training ranged magic again. (The 50% restriction to progress to the next tree)

 

So the 'general' combat really quickly turns in to extremely specialized for a particular archetype.

 

The armor tree is more glaring of a issue. If you want to focus on plate you have to train half of a second armor type before you can keep progressing on plate.

 

I am basing everything off what we currently have access to, its not a guess or an assumption, its cold hard facts.

 

With that being said, there will be iterations once discipline runes and character runes come in to effect to make those viable but those may be more of increasing past the 100 skill point cap. But i may be wrong, it may come with a fundamental overall of what the nodes are supposed to do, it would be easy to do since the framework of skills is there.

 

You can like the skill tree but please dont say it has depth and allows for customization, its simply not true.

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The skill trees can and will be improved.  This is a first iteration and there will be changes.  I don't think they are at all perfect.  

As far as Armor, you CAN plan the for an account with 3 archetypes needing plate and drive down the plate only tree (armor basics), it will simply take longer to get to 50% completion and unlock armor familiarity.  It all depends on what you are trying to reach... (recover that movement speed wearing plate?)

Several people have noted that the ability to wear leather for mobile ops and skirmish combat while wearing heavier (slower) plate for area control and defensive ops is probably optimal for most archetypes...  

 


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Well since i am a min/max person at heart, going over the skill trees and how they are currently implemented, the statistically differences are so marginally small there is no depth what so ever.

 

If they open up the training restrictions per node and the training restriction for the skill trees then you may start to see deviations across archetypes that "could" be substantial. The training restrictions basicly handicap 90% of all customization.

 

Right now, there is a clear, straight line to be followed as a confessor. 

 

Whats unfortunate, is once you get to weapon basics you actually have to choose between a melee and ranged. Then a TINY bit further you have to choose between magic ranged or physical ranged.

 

So what happens here is i am forced to start training some completely useless physical ranged in order to get to the next tree to start training ranged magic again. (The 50% restriction to progress to the next tree)

 

So the 'general' combat really quickly turns in to extremely specialized for a particular archetype.

 

The armor tree is more glaring of a issue. If you want to focus on plate you have to train half of a second armor type before you can keep progressing on plate.

 

I am basing everything off what we currently have access to, its not a guess or an assumption, its cold hard facts.

 

With that being said, there will be iterations once discipline runes and character runes come in to effect to make those viable but those may be more of increasing past the 100 skill point cap. But i may be wrong, it may come with a fundamental overall of what the nodes are supposed to do, it would be easy to do since the framework of skills is there.

 

You can like the skill tree but please dont say it has depth and allows for customization, its simply not true.

 

Im still pretty salty about the skill trees. For a game that is supposed to be somewhat "revolutionary" it seems this is a very bland, vanilla, archaic way of doing a "skill tree". 

 

Very little choice, or I should say meaningful choice, very little diversity, If you want to do "X" there is a fairly clear cut path that in the SHORT run you can find little optimizations by training X node to X level first then Y node to Y level second, then back to X node etc etc. But within a matter of DAYS those minor "optimizations" become moot, and if player wants to play "Z" Archtype, its very probable his tree will look nearly identical to every other player who plays that AT. While they might have different "levels" of node, ie, Player A has node "X" trained to 87, while Player B has X node trained to only 80 for "optimization". Those differences are so marginal, there really is no difference.

 

People claim "well there will be customization and 'builds'" In OTHER systems. That's fine and dandy and all... But players dont want TEMPORARY item-based "customization". 

 

If thats where unique-ness comes from. You might as well ditch the skill tree and figure out another better way of awarding progression for professions.... 

 

What I feel its like, is a parent taking a kid to a candy shop and pretending they can have any flavor they want, and then they get the icecream and its vanilla... Id rather have it LOOK and be advertised as vanilla and BE vanilla. Atleast I doesnt feel like a let down. In its current form its pretending to be, or seems to try to be, "flavor of your choice" and then all we really get is vanilla.

 

Whats worse, is each day I am reminded of it with my interactions. I wake up, think "Oh, Ill check my skill tree!" then I remember "Nah Im training a tier 6 ability I just started 3 days ago, its got a long way to go" and dont even bother checking.

 

To add to that, when I DO decide to check, I log in and am disappointed with how long its taking. I have OCD, and start looking at other nodes to train, then come back to the realization that I really dont have other options and close the game out.

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To add to that, when I DO decide to check, I log in and am disappointed with how long its taking. I have OCD, and start looking at other nodes to train, then come back to the realization that I really dont have other options and close the game out.

 

Expecting passive training to keep you entertained while the game servers are down is asking a lot.


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Expecting passive training to keep you entertained while the game servers are down is asking a lot.

I dont think it asking much to ask for a skill tree to involve theory crafting and the concept of "builds" at all.

 

Many players like intellectual stimulation from "build creation" and "theory crafting" revolving around their Skill Tree.

 

Like I posted above. Even adopting a more "vanilla" Universal skill line, like elder scrolls would be more fun. Or atleast not "try" to be something else. Its vanilla. Want to train 2H weapons. Cool. There is a tree for that.

 

Want to train X "profession". Cool. There is a tree for that. Its all simple. Its not pretending to be flavor.

 

 

Then, as I posted as well. Offering "Builds" in the AT trees seems an easy way to go there. Like Witcher. Start in the middle, pick a path, and move outwards. Once you train X% you can do the promotion stuff. That all seems reasonable. But atleast you start having "builds" which require theory crafting and thought and intellectual stimulation.... 

 

 

It just seems like very minor adjustments, could make a LARGE difference in perception here.

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I feel like we will be able to do a lot more theory crafting when we have better information about what the kills actually do and when the pre-requisites are more fleshed out.

 

Right now its all guess work because there is little information available, and we know this stuff is unfinished and changing.


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I feel like we will be able to do a lot more theory crafting when we have better information about what the kills actually do and when the pre-requisites are more fleshed out.

 

Right now its all guess work because there is little information available, and we know this stuff is unfinished and changing.

Agreed! 

 

Perfect time for suggestions, before its set in stone!


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Agreed! 

 

Perfect time for suggestions, before its set in stone!

 

Yep, and the suggestions would be more helpful if they didn't try to position themselves as "fixes" for things that are simply not finished.


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Yep, and the suggestions would be more helpful if they didn't try to position themselves as "fixes" for things that are simply not finished.

 

Jah, we don't have to guess as to the point being addressed. They have told us the answer already. Lots of players don't like that answer.

 

Waiting to discuss the reasons we don't like it will change nothing about that issue.

Exactly, we dont know the 'fix'. All we have is the 'broke', so focusing on the 'broke' is the only position to have.

 

But perhaps it would be better said as the 'unfinished'?

 

I could do a better job of reference to 'current implementation', that should give a reasonable enough reference that i expect there to be a change anyway?


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Jah, we don't have to guess as to the point being addressed. They have told us the answer already. Lots of players don't like that answer.

 

Waiting to discuss the reasons we don't like it will change nothing about that issue.

 

I disagree. When we know more about what the skills actually do, and when we know more about what the pre-requisites will be for each node, the theory crafting will be more interesting.

 

Right now the skills seem to do very little, and if they do something we have to guess what it is. And right now the pre-reqs seem to be barely implemented, so we don't know how what kinds of build choices will even be possible.

 

Most skills seem required 100% of the prior node to be filled at minimum. That makes it look like you can't make many choices. I expect that will change, and that will do something about the issue.


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