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imortalis

two universal trains

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I can see I hurt your feelings. That was not my intent.

Interesting, you can gauge my feelings but not gauge my clear intent on a point in a arguement.

 

Very impressive, Jah.

 

However, my feelings are quite intact. 

 

I was just trying to be helpful. <3

Edited by Vectious

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Look. The PROBLEM I see, is two fold.

1) Universal Skills are MEANT to be bland/boring/vanilla. I am 100% fine with this. Where I have an ISSUE, is your telling ALL harvesters, "before you can do XXX profession, you need to get better at harvesting apples from trees." This makes no sense. I dont give a damn about trees or apples, I want to be an Iron Miner! Let me work on mining Iron without these "FAKE" choices, in which there is 1 direct path I can take to gt better at mining Iron... When I pop into a Universal Skill tree System the FIRST node I train, should be related to my chosen "specialty".

Or look at combat. If I want to use a 2H Axe. My FIRST node should be "increases XXX with 2H weapons" Down the 2H weapon tree. Not some garbage where I get min/max damage increased. Then 3 days later, I upgrade armor DR/AC or w.e and then 3 days later blah blah. Thats FAKE choice. 

These trees need to be MUCH less linear. Like I linked above, I think the best thing they could do for Universal trees is just make ONE damn skill tree for any given "specialty" they want to have in the game, They want various "Miners" for each ore... create an "Iron Mining" tree and a "Gold Mining" tree and a "Silver Mining tree". They want all the weapons? Create a "1 handed weapon" tree and a "2 handed" weapon tree and an "archery" tree and a "magic" tree etc. You get my drift.

So now a player joins crowfall and says "I want to be a bad ass 2H Champion" Well guess what, they go to 2H tree, select that node to train and their AT tree would be the Champion - which they start to train. Simple. Sweet. To the point. NOONE would complain about this system. It doesnt advertise itself or try and camouflage itself as having "choices" in a complex skill tree, it is what it is. I think people would love it.


Which brings me to AT trees. THESE I think, should have interesting AT-changing mechanics. For instance, having nodes for the Myrm that increase his bleed damage, bleed duration, maybe a % chance to proc an "intense bleed" for any bleed application - basically entire "skill line" of nodes all surrounding Bleeding mechanics. So now a Myrm gets to his AT tree and has some interesting choices surrounding his abilities and how he wants to play.  Does he focus on control? Does he focus on bleed damage? Or maybe just pure upfront damage, or maybe HP/stamina regen? Maybe defensive nodes... Etc etc.

I would also make these things "synergize" so for instance, having the bleed tree, that would look like:

Increases bleed damage -> increases bleed duration -> % chance to "deep bleed" debuffing target making heals % less effective during bleed -> While bleeding increases damage target takes from all sources by X% etc etc.

So if a player starts down this "road" each additional thing is "stacking" with the other, so it WOULDNT necessarily make sense to start down another road, because of the cumulative benefit.

This idea isnt fully flushed out, but (again) how I envisioned it was more like the witcher 2 skill tree where you start in the "middle" and work your way outwards and the outter nodes SHOULD be much stronger than the inner ones (like a big capstone) so your trying to get outside as fast as you can, to get some of the AT defining skill nodes - rather than doing all the tier 1 skills, then all the tier 2, etc etc. Even if not as efficint, getting those outside nodes should be a GOOD reward - especially because everyone can train them with no "cost" of universal skills.

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Interesting, you can gauge my feelings but not gauge my clear intent on a point in a arguement.

Help me out, then. I can't be good at everything. What is your intent?


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Help me out, then. I can't be good at everything. What is your intent?

 

 

The Archetype skills are not there as a means to customize a character

 

I still find it amusing that you're hanging your metaphorical hat on the distinction between these repeated statements by Blair (confirmed by Todd).

 

The AT training doesn't involve any meaningful choices in my opinion beyond the order you train them and it's super clear that they intended that in my opinion.

 

edit: A recruit asked me how much autonomy he would expect in -W- the other day. The one thing about these ridiculous back and forths is making it clear that we all definitely have our own thoughts and opinions.

 

Also: nanna nanna bo bo Jah.

Edited by coolwaters

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Look. The PROBLEM I see, is two fold.

 

1) Universal Skills are MEANT to be bland/boring/vanilla. I am 100% fine with this. Where I have an ISSUE, is your telling ALL harvesters, "before you can do XXX profession, you need to get better at harvesting apples from trees." This makes no sense. I dont give a damn about trees or apples, I want to be an Iron Miner! Let me work on mining Iron without these "FAKE" choices, in which there is 1 direct path I can take to gt better at mining Iron... When I pop into a Universal Skill tree System the FIRST node I train, should be related to my chosen "specialty".

I wouldnt say its completely needed, just heavily implied that it should be the priority.

 

I mean, to fight, you dont NEED to put on a weapon, just very difficult to fight with out one.

 

However, i agree with you completely, its pretty frustrating. 

 

 

Or look at combat. If I want to use a 2H Axe. My FIRST node should be "increases XXX with 2H weapons" Down the 2H weapon tree. Not some garbage where I get min/max damage increased. Then 3 days later, I upgrade armor DR/AC or w.e and then 3 days later blah blah. Thats FAKE choice. 

Another thing i agree with.

 

I am hoping we are missing something that allows a archetype to change his weapons. Blair has TEASED that there will may be unarmed discipline rune.

 

This further hints that a champion may not be stuck between 2H mace and 2H axe. Or a Myrm be stuck between axes and maces. The skills support this polarization but, again, the nodes themselves may change. (Hopefully in this case)

 

 

 

 

 

I think alot of our worries could be cured with additional information.

 

However, the fact may be that the reason it hasn't been given is because they haven't actually decided yet.

Edited by Vectious

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I still find it amusing that you're hanging your metaphorical hat on the distinction between these repeated statements by Blair (confirmed by Todd).

 

The AT training doesn't involve any meaningful choices in my opinion beyond the order you train them and it's super clear that they intended that in my opinion.

 

If you want to distort what I am saying to amuse yourself I can't stop you.

 

edit: A recruit asked me how much autonomy he would expect in -W- the other day. The one thing about these ridiculous back and forths is making it clear that we all definitely have our own thoughts and opinions.

 

Also: nanna nanna bo bo Jah.

I already reported you to the guild enforcement officer.

Edited by Jah

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Look. The PROBLEM I see, is two fold.

 

1) Universal Skills are MEANT to be bland/boring/vanilla. I am 100% fine with this. Where I have an ISSUE, is your telling ALL harvesters, "before you can do XXX profession, you need to get better at harvesting apples from trees." This makes no sense. I dont give a damn about trees or apples, I want to be an Iron Miner! Let me work on mining Iron without these "FAKE" choices, in which there is 1 direct path I can take to gt better at mining Iron... When I pop into a Universal Skill tree System the FIRST node I train, should be related to my chosen "specialty".

 

Or look at combat. If I want to use a 2H Axe. My FIRST node should be "increases XXX with 2H weapons" Down the 2H weapon tree. Not some garbage where I get min/max damage increased. Then 3 days later, I upgrade armor DR/AC or w.e and then 3 days later blah blah. Thats FAKE choice. 

 

 

 

 

If they do feel the need to add these sorts of things, instead of gating them behind "basics" or as prerequisites, they should throw them in as "advanced", the things you take AFTER you fully specialized along a line, or as a sub selection and do away with the whole central training node altogether. 

 

Would not work well with the current graphical layout, but I think that is the better design. If people trying to focus on ore mining have to bother with filling out 50% of the harvesting basics, including nearly half of the lines they are not interested in, it's going to be a very long time before we get into any real specialty. Ore is especially egregious, in that you have to run completely through copper and some storage size stuff that isn't even implemented, before being able to even look at other metals.

 

That first campaign is going to be a bunch of near naked people running around waggling their private bits at each other for the first few months.

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Look. The PROBLEM I see, is two fold.

 

1) Universal Skills are MEANT to be bland/boring/vanilla. I am 100% fine with this. Where I have an ISSUE, is your telling ALL harvesters, "before you can do XXX profession, you need to get better at harvesting apples from trees." This makes no sense. I dont give a damn about trees or apples, I want to be an Iron Miner! Let me work on mining Iron without these "FAKE" choices, in which there is 1 direct path I can take to gt better at mining Iron... When I pop into a Universal Skill tree System the FIRST node I train, should be related to my chosen "specialty".

 

Or look at combat. If I want to use a 2H Axe. My FIRST node should be "increases XXX with 2H weapons" Down the 2H weapon tree. Not some garbage where I get min/max damage increased. Then 3 days later, I upgrade armor DR/AC or w.e and then 3 days later blah blah. Thats FAKE choice. 

 

These trees need to be MUCH less linear. Like I linked above, I think the best thing they could do for Universal trees is just make ONE damn skill tree for any given "specialty" they want to have in the game, They want various "Miners" for each ore... create an "Iron Mining" tree and a "Gold Mining" tree and a "Silver Mining tree". They want all the weapons? Create a "1 handed weapon" tree and a "2 handed" weapon tree and an "archery" tree and a "magic" tree etc. You get my drift.

 

I agree on this point. If CF adopted a more Eve Online approach to passive skill training CF would have a much broader choice for skill training, rather that a tree progression you use skill books which have fewer dependencies then you can easily build more choice. If you want to train ore harvesting then you don't have to train apple harvesting. Selection of which skills to train adds more depth and choice. 

 

Also it then becomes easier (from a UI perspective) to add additional skill books without re-designng entire skill trees.


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I am hoping we are missing something that allows a archetype to change his weapons. Blair has TEASED that there will may be unarmed discipline rune.

 

This further hints that a champion may not be stuck between 2H mace and 2H axe. Or a Myrm be stuck between axes and maces. The skills support this polarization but, again, the nodes themselves may change. (Hopefully in this case)

 

 

 

There was something about this on a Q&A, where the deciding factor would probably revolve around animation requirements.

 

Some models will be able to have items/weapon options build more easily than others, so they would get more variety.

 

Artificer would be an interesting archetype that was able to equip any weapon set available, and have a slightly different power tray dependent on the weapons selected.

I agree on this point. If CF adopted a more Eve Online approach to passive skill training CF would have a much broader choice for skill training, rather that a tree progression you use skill books which have fewer dependencies then you can easily build more choice. If you want to train ore harvesting then you don't have to train apple harvesting. Selection of which skills to train adds more depth and choice. 

 

Also it then becomes easier (from a UI perspective) to add additional skill books without re-designng entire skill trees.

This is a much better suggestion than mine.

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I am hoping we are missing something that allows a archetype to change his weapons. Blair has TEASED that there will may be unarmed discipline rune.

 

This further hints that a champion may not be stuck between 2H mace and 2H axe. Or a Myrm be stuck between axes and maces. The skills support this polarization but, again, the nodes themselves may change. (Hopefully in this case)

 

I think they’d love to add that but won’t be able to justify spending money on animations for it until more of the core game is finished. Earlier in development there were clues they intended to add more weapon options, but they have become more cautious about expectation setting. They are more comfortable hinting at unarmed disciplines because they have created animations for unarmed combat.


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There was something about this on a Q&A, where the deciding factor would probably revolve around animation requirements.

 

Some models will be able to have items/weapon options build more easily than others, so they would get more variety.

 

Artificer would be an interesting archetype that was able to equip any weapon set available, and have a slightly different power tray dependent on the weapons selected.

This is a much better suggestion than mine.

Indeed, it makes sense from animation point of view.

 

But at least his(Blair) implications mean that they are at least looking at alternatives, since they went ahead and built in unarmed animations for every archetype. 

 

And anything gated by a cost factor could be a future add.

 

Either way it would be nice to have it addressed either way.

 

 

I agree on this point. If CF adopted a more Eve Online approach to passive skill training CF would have a much broader choice for skill training, rather that a tree progression you use skill books which have fewer dependencies then you can easily build more choice. If you want to train ore harvesting then you don't have to train apple harvesting. Selection of which skills to train adds more depth and choice. 

 

Also it then becomes easier (from a UI perspective) to add additional skill books without re-designng entire skill trees.

Very interesting, i like this as well.

Edited by Vectious

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I agree on this point. If CF adopted a more Eve Online approach to passive skill training CF would have a much broader choice for skill training, rather that a tree progression you use skill books which have fewer dependencies then you can easily build more choice. If you want to train ore harvesting then you don't have to train apple harvesting. Selection of which skills to train adds more depth and choice. 

 

Also it then becomes easier (from a UI perspective) to add additional skill books without re-designng entire skill trees.

Just going to throw a suggestion in here, based on an assumption.

 

It could be that they also have the idea that certain skills don't just have a tier value, but an additive value so that players who have not trained X amount of hours should not be qualified to even start the smaller sections, thus the "Basics" lines.

 

If that is the case, I think it would be a much better approach to add another prerequisite format than the % trained in a group tree.  Make a "total hours trained" in ANY universal skills prerequisite instead.

 

That way they could allow for people to dive into some more basic but necessary items, like survival, and then skip straight into the specific lines they are looking for.  That would also better match the descriptions given of people having to diversify a bit at the start, just to survive, before picking their primary profession.

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I agree on this point. If CF adopted a more Eve Online approach to passive skill training CF would have a much broader choice for skill training, rather that a tree progression you use skill books which have fewer dependencies then you can easily build more choice. If you want to train ore harvesting then you don't have to train apple harvesting. Selection of which skills to train adds more depth and choice. 

 

Also it then becomes easier (from a UI perspective) to add additional skill books without re-designng entire skill trees.

I dont even think you need a skill book system. This is why I had suggested a layout similar to elder scrolls:

skyrim-skillz.jpg

I mean they can "insert" each of the nodes into these trees so you select a tree and still have "nodes" to train. They can still keep basic nodes at the bottom and work the way up, increasing "tier" each time, etc. Just separate them out, give each "job" its own tree. 

 

Just going to throw a suggestion in here, based on an assumption.

 

It could be that they also have the idea that certain skills don't just have a tier value, but an additive value so that players who have not trained X amount of hours should not be qualified to even start the smaller sections, thus the "Basics" lines.

 

If that is the case, I think it would be a much better approach to add another prerequisite format than the % trained in a group tree.  Make a "total hours trained" in ANY universal skills prerequisite instead.

 

That way they could allow for people to dive into some more basic but necessary items, like survival, and then skip straight into the specific lines they are looking for.  That would also better match the descriptions given of people having to diversify a bit at the start, just to survive, before picking their primary profession.

This kinda goes against some of the theme of the game IMO... Having no leveling system. I mean at that point your starting to dip into a leveling system.

 

IF they wanted to go this route, they would have to create the "basic" trees provide all the little stuff. So as an example. I would start every character with 0% chance to find apples from trees (down from 20%) and then use the node to increase that to provide SOME chance to find it. 

 

Then they need to re-do the training time for tier 1 abilities so its MUCH quicker. But frankly... I dont see the "need" for this at all... Just give everyone the "basic" trees and then open it up to whatever you want after that.

 

I dont see a need for the basic trees. It should just be a list of all the trees under the basic trees that you start to train. 

 

I also dont see liability in allowing someone to instantly start on the profession of their choice from day 1. 

 

I just think they are stumbling over themselves in how its done right now, and they might as well just make it MUCH more simple. Get rid of basic trees, and let people start wherever they want.

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