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VIKINGNAIL
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This how you train pronunciaiton, you listen and speak. Just like when learning Kanji you read and write. In both cases you spend time and effort. The only difference is that written material for learning Kanji is easier to obtain  then a native speaker for training proper pronunciation and listening skills. Thus learning Kanji is feels like a mundane activity for you, where it actually isn't.

 

If you lived among chinese and talked to them and heard them speak 8 hours a day and could learn the letters only on a relatively rare occation, your impression would reverse.

Sorry Rajah, but there are simply some languages that native English speakers really struggle to speak.  People come from all sorts of walks of life and there may be exceptions, but generally an English speaker can pronounce all of the Japanese sounds whereas a language like Thai has sounds they may never be able to reproduce.

 

Japanese as a language is fairly consistent with its rules, the pronunciation is easy for native English speakers.  Therefore it is not a difficult language, the only real obstacle is memorizing a large number of Kanji.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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whereas a language like Thai has sounds they may never be able to reproduce.

 

 

 

Sorry but what you are saying is plain ridiculous, those are Thai sounds not bloody dolphins or seagulls. With sufficient practice anyone will be able to reproduce them perfectly.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW-du0_HhQs

 

You are trying to tell me that mastering to pronouce 7 new sounds and 5 tones is harder than learning Kanji ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSwLWcTTmz4

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3MRMBjd20

 

 

Japanese as a language is fairly consistent with its rules, the pronunciation is easy for native English speakers.  Therefore it is not a difficult language, the only real obstacle is memorizing a large number of Kanji.

 

 I don't understand how you do not understand that literacy is part of the language. For japanese it is the hard part. In modern times if you are illiterate you do not really the language. 

Edited by rajah
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Sorry but what you are saying is plain ridiculous, those are Thai sounds not bloody dolphins or seagulls. With sufficient practice anyone will be able to reproduce them perfectly.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW-du0_HhQs

 

You are trying to tell me that mastering to pronouce 7 new sounds and 5 tones is harder than learning Kanji ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSwLWcTTmz4

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3MRMBjd20

 

 

 I don't understand how you do not understand that literacy is part of the language. For japanese it is the hard part. In modern times if you are illiterate you do not really the language. 

Sorry but written Japanese is really easy, it's all just memorization, and spoken Japanese is really easy for native English speakers, because none of the syllables are exotic.

 

Anyone can learn Kanji, not everyone that is native English can learn the sounds of the thai language. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I am not talking about clinical cases here, with sufficient practice anyone can learn to spell.

Yea, but not everyone can learn to speak certain languages.  Japanese is a language that is easy to speak, it's one of the easiest languages for a native English speaker to learn.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I am starting to think you are probably right, there are some exceptions where people have certain issues with processing information.

Edited by rajah
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I am starting to think you are probably right

I used to tutor Japanese at university and it's pretty easy for people.  The only people that seemed to really struggle with it are the ones that for whatever reason would build the language up as some exotic and super difficult thing to figure out.  Once you help them see past that they pick it up fairly easily. 

 

Some languages are simply objectively harder to learn but there is also a psychological and cultural factor at play.  People psyche themselves out about certain languages fairly frequently. 

 

Japanese is probably the easiest east asian language to learn tbh, unlike many of the other ones it does not have a tonal element and certain syllables that would be too hard for most native English speakers to emulate. 

 

Anyway learning Kanji is easy, the strokes are easy to execute, it is simply a matter of memorization.  Speaking it is easy, the syllables are all commonly pronounced in various English words. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Sounds and tones are really easy to learn and pronounce if explained and controlled well, and then fine tuned to perfection. It,s a matter of weeks or maybe a couple months, where learning Kanji, according to most, will take years.

 

The only real problem is that sometimes teachers do not really know thmeselves (or do not bother explaining) what does it take to pronounce sounds properly, if you are lucky to find one competent and persistent enough enough to explain the nuances of pronunciation and continously monitor you and point at your mistakes learning to spell will probably be the easiest part for you.

Edited by rajah
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Sounds and tones are really easy to learn and pronounce if explained and controlled well, and then fine tuned to perfection. It,s a matter of weeks or maybe a couple months, where learning Kanji, according to most, will take years.

 

The only real problem is that sometimes teachers do not really know thmeselves what does it take to pronounce sounds properly, if you are lucky to find one competent and persistent enough enough to explain the nuances of pronunciation and continously monitor you and point at your mistakes learning to spell will probably be the easiest part for you.

Some languages are simply very difficult to speak if your mouth is used to speaking certain other languages.  Speaking often has more physical limitations than writing will ever have. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Some languages are simply very difficult to speak if your mouth is used to speaking certain other languages. Speaking often has more physical limitations than writing will ever have.

 

Well if you have some basic control over your motor skills it shouldn't be terribly hard. It's not like you have to lift kettlebells with your tongue or anything like that.

 

The only thing that comes to my mind when speaking of impassable physical obstacles to proper spelling is this.

Keanu-losing-mouth1.jpg

 

I HOPE THIS IS NOT THE CASE !

Edited by rajah
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Well if you have some basic control over your motor skills it shouldn't be terribly hard. It's not like you have to lift kettlebells with your tongue or anything like that.

It is often very hard for native English speakers to speak certain languages.  Harder than lifting kettlebells. 

 

Writing is just writing, and japanese in particular has easy strokes.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Writing is just writing, and japanese in particular has easy strokes.

How can it have particularly easy strokes if it was copied from the chinese one to one and has some new added elements. Moreso it was copied from thentraditional Mandarin, not from the modern simplified Mandarin that is used in China nowadays. It is harder by default, maybe on part with the traditional writing used in Taiwan.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdwb_9sEuRnY-Uk87I5apV1pU6DALag5YcjpssYHCV8VMyMOnD

 

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/52847000/gif/_52847917_china_taiwan-thesaurus_304.gif

 

At least that's how it was when I tutored japanese in Univercity !

Edited by rajah
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How can it have particularly easy strokes if it was copied from the chinese one to one and has some new added elements. Moreso it was copied from thentraditional Mandarin, not from the modern simplified Mandarin that is used in China nowadays. It is harder by default, maybe on part with the traditional writing used in Taiwan.

 

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/52847000/gif/_52847917_china_taiwan-thesaurus_304.gif

None of those strokes in those characters are difficult?

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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None of those strokes in those characters are difficult?

Well, according to you, japanese strokes (straight lines) for some reason are easier than chinese strokes of the same length and direction.

 

It's just the japanese characters themselves that are actually more complex.

 

When I was tutoring Japanese in the University, me and my students always contemplated at that paradox. Half the group was lifting kettlwbells though

Edited by rajah
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Well, according to you, japanese strokes (straight lines) for some reason are easier than chinese strokes of the same length and direction.

 

It's just the japanese characters themselves that are actually more complex.

 

When I was tutoring Japanese in the University, me and my students always contemplated at that paradox. Half the group was lifting kettlwbells though

No, it's spoken cantonese and mandarin that are harder than japanese.  The written languages are easy for both, strokes are just strokes, it's just memorization, and none of the strokes are particularly difficult to emulate. 

 

Japanese is an easy language, it isn't tonal at all, it is very consistent and logical, and the strokes are easy.  All it requires is memorization, unlike other languages that are literally physically difficult for native English speakers to speak.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The written languages are easy for both, strokes are just strokes

 

 

Writing is just writing, and japanese in particular has easy strokes.

Edited by rajah
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The written languages are easy for both, strokes are just strokes

 

 

Writing is just writing, and japanese in particular has easy strokes.

 

This is correct.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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