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Is Crafting too much RNG?


Dirkoff

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This is a reply to Angelhearth about my crafting system feedback: (I didn't want to reply in the testing feedback thread)

 

This is my feedback on the Crafting System:
I realise we haven't got factories and POIs yet but from my experience so far in Big World these are the main issues.
1) There is too much RNG in the system which causes a big frustration factor. I realise you can increase skill in areas to help the dice rolls in your favour but at the end of the day its still a dice roll.
2) When the dice fail it is crushing, you loose everything the resources and time. There is no partial recovery of resources.
3) The number of steps seems too many. It adds unnecessary complexity.
These are my comments after several test sessions using the Crafting System that has been present so far. I realise it is subjective but I am increasingly becoming disappointed with the Crafting.
 

Angelhearth  said "Are you among those who believe you can be a good fighter AND a good crafter? Won't work, either you specialize in fighting, and probably fighting alone, or you specialize in crafting, with enough fighting skill to kill animals for hide and food. Thank god, because I am one of those who wants to be an exceptional crafter and have no interest in fighting. The possibilities for a crafter, in this game, is, or at least will be, amazing, making weapons and armor the fighters would pay all their gold, and more, for."

 

Crowfall will certainly have dedicated Crafters and dedicated PvP players. If you look at some of my post you will see this is what I firmly believe will be the case.  However, to be an amazing crafter why should you have to put up with a crafting system that incorporates so much RNG. If you have trained the crafting skills you are still subject to the outcome of the roll of the dice, even if you biased the rolls in your favour (by the skills you have). If those dice rolls fail you currently loose everything. I can't believe a Master Blacksmith would have such a bad day to 'loose' all his materials and components. Its just poorly made socks. 

 

The point about "Won't work, either you specialize in fighting, and probably fighting alone, or you specialize in crafting, with enough fighting skill to kill animals for hide and food."  just doesn't make sense. 

 

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Maybe.

 

I think the better question is, does RNG add depth?

 

I think its sort of a crutch to replace depth then to actually add to it.

 

But thats just a personal opinion really, when i see items randomly generated i just feel like its sort of a cop out, and crafting is supposed to counter random generated drops, right?

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But thats just a personal opinion really, when i see items randomly generated i just feel like its sort of a cop out, and crafting is supposed to counter random generated drops, right?

 

Thats a good point. When you compare the randomization in the crafting system to totally random gear drops, CF crafting doesn't look as random. Crafters can actually decide exactly which gear to make, exactly which materials to use, and target specific stats and bonuses. The RNG is just to determine how successful they are. Random gear drops from mobs are far more random.

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Thats a good point. When you compare the randomization in the crafting system to totally random gear drops, CF crafting doesn't look as random. Crafters can actually decide exactly which gear to make, exactly which materials to use, and target specific stats and bonuses. The RNG is just to determine how successful they are. Random gear drops from mobs are far more random.

Well then you just sort of pick which stat you randomly generate then, with enough materials you just reroll until its perfect. Its extremely similar to PoE(Path of exile) crafting, except PoE has more depth, different items change things in different ways, some even add modifiers or remove them but its all just rolling the dice. 

 

Also, while theres 3-4 good modifiers (over the 6-7 max) you aim for to be maxed in PoE, in this you basically just have one and thats weapon damage or resists. Also while in PoE it could be random between lets say a number between 1-140, its Crowfall theres crit fail, fail, success, moderate success, good success, great success, and finally amazing success. But at least its weighted and effected by the skill tree so its not just a random 1-7 roll. 

 

I guess its a step forward in that aspect that the item is not completely randomly generated, but a step back when you compare to other crafting systems. 

 

I think the jist of it is this. In SWG the crafting was great at the time, since then there have been huge advances in crafting system so just a direct port from SWG will not do.

 

Same thing with skill tree, in EVE it was great at the time, since then theres been huge advances in that type of progression. But its not a direct port, apparently EVE's skill tree is greatly enhanced from what we have now.

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Also, while theres 3-4 good modifiers (over the 6-7 max) you aim for to be maxed in PoE, in this you basically just have one and thats weapon damage or resists. 

 

I think that is mostly because the actual numbers haven't received much attention yet.

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I think that is mostly because the actual numbers haven't received much attention yet.

Agreed, nob turning will help.

 

In another thread it was touched on, regardless of what the other stats are, the 'all in' on weapon damage is still the no brainer. 

 

And this comes down to experimentation points and quality. 

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Agreed, nob turning will help.

 

In another thread it was touched on, regardless of what the other stats are, the 'all in' on weapon damage is still the no brainer. 

 

And this comes down to experimentation points and quality. 

 

Would "all in" on weapon damage be a no brainer if the other options provided much bigger boosts? Like, if they turned some knobs?

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Failing adds absolutely nothing to the system other than annoyance and irritation. It is not necessary in a game where gear is already guaranteed to be impermanent and I would like to see it removed.

 

I am okay with the experimentation system. It isn't fun and is a little generic but I think it is reasonable. It is designed to be wasteful and tedious in order to drive the need for resources, which will in turn drive competition over the resources needed for better experimentation rolls and blueprints. This alone should be enough to keep the loop moving but it also might end up working too well. If the higher end resources do not come from factories they might end up being too scarce, which could stop the loop from functioning as intended.

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Would "all in" on weapon damage be a no brainer if the other options provided much bigger boosts? Like, if they turned some knobs?

Thats sort of exactly what i was supposing in that other thread.

 

Even if they turned the nobs on attack power and the other stats that have the same base line by 10X, it would still equal out to 28% advantage, compare that to the 96/2 = 48% damage increase from weapons. They could go 20X and then attack power would be the thing to go 'all in' on. Or crit chance, or fire% damage. But not all three at the same time.

 

The issue is not which 'all in' to choose jah, its that 'all in' is the best choice. The crafting works by multiplier past 'all in' if you stop going 'all in' on a single something in a stage then the worth of that stat drops dramatically to the point it wasn't worth it. The issue is the experimentation points and quality material.

 

But Myth may have a point, its not CrowCraft, maybe it IS good enough.

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In order for training to be meaningful, there has to be a significant difference between those who have training and those who don't. Take out RNG and it's too easy for untrained people to make gear. You could lower the quality for them by a significant amount, but I feel they are already doing that by having the basic gear.

 

If you train in crafting, the RNG isn't a big deal at all. If you haven't trained, it should be punishing to get you to depend on the people who have trained it.

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In order for training to be meaningful, there has to be a significant difference between those who have training and those who don't. Take out RNG and it's too easy for untrained people to make gear. You could lower the quality for them by a significant amount, but I feel they are already doing that by having the basic gear.

 

If you train in crafting, the RNG isn't a big deal at all. If you haven't trained, it should be punishing to get you to depend on the people who have trained it.

 

Untrained crafters might not even be able to make all of the basic recipes since basic recipes for each individual craft aren't unlocked until you've trained pretty far into the basic skill tree. They definitely won't be making anything beyond basic since you need to train the entire basic skill tree for each craft in order to get access to the higher tier recipes. Even then, they won't be able to improve anything until they have enough experimentation points trained to do so.

 

The skills needed to separate a skilled from an unskilled crafter is already exceedingly harsh and becomes absolutely brutal when you do start to train crafting. The crafting system has a lot of problems but making it too easy is not one of them.

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Untrained crafters might not even be able to make all of the basic recipes since basic recipes for each individual craft aren't unlocked until you've trained pretty far into the basic skill tree. They definitely won't be making anything beyond basic since you need to train the entire basic skill tree for each craft in order to get access to the higher tier recipes. Even then, they won't be able to improve anything until they have enough experimentation points trained to do so.

 

The skills needed to separate a skilled from an unskilled crafter is already exceedingly harsh and becomes absolutely brutal when you do start to train crafting. The crafting system has a lot of problems but making it too easy is not one of them.

The very first skill in the crafting basics tree gives basic crafting recipes. It doesn't say it has to be trained to 100, so I'm assuming you get the recipes when you train it to 1. There are skills later in tree that say they give basic blacksmithing recipes, basic woodworking recipes, etc., but I have a really hard time believing that people won't be able to craft basic weapons until they train in the basic blacksmithing skill. Even if you assume you get the recipes as soon as you hit 1 in the skill, it would still take 12 days to reach that skill. They aren't going to have everyone running around for 12 days without being able to craft any kind of weapon.

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Would "all in" on weapon damage be a no brainer if the other options provided much bigger boosts? Like, if they turned some knobs?

This is all dependent on odds.

 

The current best math I have is that adding in 4 pips gives you a 40% (Roughly 20% final chance) better chance to get an Amazing success vs 8 pips (roughly 8% from the numbers but error and gut feel tells me it's closer to 5%).

 

That is not enough to compensate for the fact that 2 * 20% chance hits in a row will happen only 4% of the time, so you are basically 100% better off odds wise to always go for the 8 pips.

 

Since anything below 4 pips produces a degraded results as 50% or higher risk is the cut off for some sort of difficulty bonus, there is literally only one reason to try anything else. You can't spend either the time or resources to make the best effort chance.  If that is the case, you are even better off eating the loss of bonus and simply going 1 pip at a time, which has a 60%+ chance to produce "great success" or better every time, depending on material quality.

 

Yes they could turn some nobs, but the first one would be to change the odds of success table so that each choice was within 5% of obtaining the same end result.

 

Then all sorts of nobs become interesting.

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Untrained crafters might not even be able to make all of the basic recipes since basic recipes for each individual craft aren't unlocked until you've trained pretty far into the basic skill tree. They definitely won't be making anything beyond basic since you need to train the entire basic skill tree for each craft in order to get access to the higher tier recipes. Even then, they won't be able to improve anything until they have enough experimentation points trained to do so.

 

The skills needed to separate a skilled from an unskilled crafter is already exceedingly harsh and becomes absolutely brutal when you do start to train crafting. The crafting system has a lot of problems but making it too easy is not one of them.

 

This is an excellent point.

 

If the recipes are staged so that all those optional green items are only available as part of the skill training process, that would definitely add all sorts of base line value to an item, with or without success rate changes.

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They aren't going to have everyone running around for 12 days without being able to craft any kind of weapon.

 

You sound very sure of that while Blair is over there cackling maniacally. :P Truthfully we have no idea what they are going to do. Fisting is actually pretty OP though, so it might work out.

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I really dislike the RNG nature of crafting; brings back too many bad memories of archeage. If they want to separate the "chaff" (those that don't invest in crafting) from the "wheat" (those that do invest in crafting), I'd rather them just grant recipes and the ability to craft better quality gear through the skill lines.

 

I'd lower the components required to craft white "advanced armor" and remove basic armor / weapons entirely. Basic armor / weapons right now seem entirely like a stop-gap measure.

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I really dislike the RNG nature of crafting; brings back too many bad memories of archeage. If they want to separate the "chaff" (those that don't invest in crafting) from the "wheat" (those that do invest in crafting), I'd rather them just grant recipes and the ability to craft better quality gear through the skill lines.

 

I'd lower the components required to craft white "advanced armor" and remove basic armor / weapons entirely. Basic armor / weapons right now seem entirely like a stop-gap measure right now.

They could gate by several things.

 

Resource quality.  If you don't have the skill, any resource above your skill is simply treated as your highest possible.

Added components.  As said above, the green boxes , both access and quantity, like how many metal sheets you could add to armor, could be things you open as you get better.

Specialty seals.  Adding a whole variety of specialty seals with unique recipes, as a separate line of upgrades to gear, could further distinguish things.

 

I don't agree with total removal of RNG, but right now I have 9 pips per blue item, that's up to nine separate chance events on just experimentation.  

 

That is a bit overboard. 

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First, the current system desperately needs salvaging implemented, being able to get back between 60-80% of the base mats to make an item would be huge allowing crafters to mitigate much of the RNG.

 

Second Experimenting adds a huge level of failure into the current crafting system mainly because amazing success is significantly better than the other variants. 

 

 

So even if you are just going for an amazing/great success on the last stage of a weapon right there you only have I think a 10% chance to get one of those. So your whole chance of making the weapon starts at 10%. Then put like a 5% chance of failing the craft itself into that and your a 9.5%, then lets say you want a green one but you only have 2 out of 3 pieces green so there is like a 60% chance to get green. Now we are a 5.7% chance to make your green weapon. Now you have 12 crafts to make that weapon from raw mats. There is a 54% chance of having 0 failures.

 

So, we can say that roughly the chance to get a weapon crafted without failing and getting at least a great or amazing success is 3%. If there is no Salvaging then you need something like 20x the mats(hard to figure out because you aren't using everything ever craft) to make one of these decent weapons, This is also why I put the salvaging amount so high at 60-80%. With ~ 20 crafts to get a "decent" weapon at 80% salvage rate you still need 4x the amount of mats to make the item.  ((((EDIT: I want to make a note on the 20x number of mats I really didn't put much effort into this number and somewhat pulled it out of the 3% success chance's ass,  but failing more at the end would use multiple times more materials than just failing the ingots))))

 

So right now with no salvaging you need VERY roughly 20x the mats to make a decent item. Even with a Large 80% return rate on salvaging it's still 4x the mats.

 

Now that is what I would call an acceptable weapon, No secondary stat focus only the base damage at the end. Now if we wanted the Secondary stats to pull all the way up through all the crafts before the final damage at a great/amazing rate, even giving the Experiment chance something like 50% to get a great success through 11 crafts It's still a .04% chance to get it all done in 1 craft. Putting in a real rate the number just drops to tons of zeros.

 

 

So I can agree that the system in place is not very good, failing is very punishing because of no salvaging and failing is common because of the significant advantage of Amazing success. 

Now the system itself is actually Awesome, the problem is that the values put in are values you would use in OLD BAD CRAFTING SYSTMS. This system then exponentially amplifies the numbers and that results in an large over emphasis on failure.

 

So they need to add much more forgiving numbers with decreased gain on experiment tiers to keep everything from expanding out of bounds.

Jezvin

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First, the current system desperately needs salvaging implemented, being able to get back between 60-80% of the base mats to make an item would be huge allowing crafters to mitigate much of the RNG.

 

Second Experimenting adds a huge level of failure into the current crafting system mainly because amazing success is significantly better than the other variants. 

 

 

So even if you are just going for an amazing/great success on the last stage of a weapon right there you only have I think a 10% chance to get one of those. So your whole chance of making the weapon starts at 10%. Then put like a 5% chance of failing the craft itself into that and your a 9.5%, then lets say you want a green one but you only have 2 out of 3 pieces green so there is like a 60% chance to get green. Now we are a 5.7% chance to make your green weapon. Now you have 12 crafts to make that weapon from raw mats. There is a 54% chance of having 0 failures.

 

So, we can say that roughly the chance to get a weapon crafted without failing and getting at least a great or amazing success is 3%. If there is no Salvaging then you need something like 20x the mats(hard to figure out because you aren't using everything ever craft) to make one of these decent weapons, This is also why I put the salvaging amount so high at 60-80%. With ~ 20 crafts to get a "decent" weapon at 80% salvage rate you still need 4x the amount of mats to make the item.  ((((EDIT: I want to make a note on the 20x number of mats I really didn't put much effort into this number and somewhat pulled it out of the 3% success chance's ass,  but failing more at the end would use multiple times more materials than just failing the ingots))))

 

So right now with no salvaging you need VERY roughly 20x the mats to make a decent item. Even with a Large 80% return rate on salvaging it's still 4x the mats.

 

Now that is what I would call an acceptable weapon, No secondary stat focus only the base damage at the end. Now if we wanted the Secondary stats to pull all the way up through all the crafts before the final damage at a great/amazing rate, even giving the Experiment chance something like 50% to get a great success through 11 crafts It's still a .04% chance to get it all done in 1 craft. Putting in a real rate the number just drops to tons of zeros.

 

 

So I can agree that the system in place is not very good, failing is very punishing because of no salvaging and failing is common because of the significant advantage of Amazing success. 

Now the system itself is actually Awesome, the problem is that the values put in are values you would use in OLD BAD CRAFTING SYSTMS. This system then exponentially amplifies the numbers and that results in an large over emphasis on failure.

 

So they need to add much more forgiving numbers with decreased gain on experiment tiers to keep everything from expanding out of bounds.

 

Your not considering the impact blueprints have on the process.

 

I have done the math, and if a BP can produce 100 components, each "level" deep an item has will reduce the final production limit by 20 items assuming a 5% success rate.

 

For example

 

100 Iron bars =>  80 pistol triggers => 60 Pistol handles => 40 Finished pistols.

 

You have to consider that each piece in the pistol Pistol handles combines will have the same chance of failure as the triggers.

 

So with BP's the actual cost ends up being much better than these one off's we are stuck making currently.

 

That said, I do think what we are seeing now is a bit too much RNG.

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