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Dirkoff

Is Crafting too much RNG?

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Crafting complete without RNG is counterproductive also a Crafting with too much RNG.

The Reason that i quit playing AA after 2 Years was beside the Pay2Win that crazy RNG System.

But its not comparable, respectively i cant estimate it.....in AA you wasted tons of Gold and time in your Gear and if the Upgrade fails(after you was Lucky to get the right Item in the first craft and the following steps) it was wasted.

 

In Crowfall the Gear would be destroyed by use it, so you need all around new Gear.

It is not so, that you work for the one Weapon that you will have over Months or Years.

So i don't know in the actually state of the game, how much frustrated the crafting will be in the Endgame.

 

But if its to hard and the crafter loose the motivation, it is a Problem..... we will see.

Hope and think that Artcraft will have that in mind.

 

Sry about my bad English hope you can get what i want ^^ ;)

Edited by Tommey

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Should have auto-rerolls somewhere in the advanced crafting trees so that crafters get the benefit of failing once or twice and still getting a chance to complete the item over someone who is untrained.

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I just spent an hour and a half gathering materials, refining, making components then assembling to make a staff.

 

Failure.

 

 

I want to create my first wappon (Paired Axes) . Try it three times until yet. To the failures on the crafting Material i hat every Time a Failure on Creating the wappon.

So i have nothing until wasted Time.

The Sucess Chance with 50% ist to low. And Three Times a Failure ist not 50%

Ist really Frustating to loose all the material that need Hours to Gather.

At Relase und Time behind we need a lot of Wappons, Armor and other Stuff. The Players have to feel the Sucess not the Failure.

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I just want to say the first 4 real weapons I have tried to craft this weekend (my first real weekend) were final combine failures. I had a couple failures on the way, maybe 9-10. But 4 completely crafted druid staffs, with all potential additives, completely gone. Literally my entire play session yesterday accomplished -NOTHING-. That was multiple hours.

 

I know this is alpha, and I know how RNG crafting works, so I'm not too insulted about it. But your average gamer of today experiencing that? They'd be gone that night. Simple as.

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I just want to say the first 4 real weapons I have tried to craft this weekend (my first real weekend) were final combine failures. I had a couple failures on the way, maybe 9-10. But 4 completely crafted druid staffs, with all potential additives, completely gone. Literally my entire play session yesterday accomplished -NOTHING-. That was multiple hours.

 

I know this is alpha, and I know how RNG crafting works, so I'm not too insulted about it. But your average gamer of today experiencing that? They'd be gone that night. Simple as.

That sounds like a lot of failures. Were you using crafting potions?


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That sounds like a lot of failures. Were you using crafting potions?

Sure was, for the final combines at least. Some of those 9-10 failures were on planks without the pots though. RNGeesus and I tend to not be on good terms though, so I generally don't take my experience as fact in such cases. This is probably a good example of the system using real RNG versus weighted RNG, strings like this can and will happen using real RNG.

 

That said, even totally skill-less I don't think 4 failures on the first tier above basic (still using basic materials) is appropriate. I wasn't even crafting for amazings or with good materials, just to test.

Edited by Real Salt

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Should have auto-rerolls somewhere in the advanced crafting trees so that crafters get the benefit of failing once or twice and still getting a chance to complete the item over someone who is untrained.

This system is in the works, Blueprints and crafting factories.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Sure was, for the final combines at least. Some of those 9-10 failures were on planks without the pots though. RNGeesus and I tend to not be on good terms though, so I generally don't take my experience as fact in such cases. This is probably a good example of the system using real RNG versus weighted RNG, strings like this can and will happen using real RNG.

 

That said, even totally skill-less I don't think 4 failures on the first tier above basic (still using basic materials) is appropriate. I wasn't even crafting for amazings or with good materials, just to test.

We have noticed a tendency for failures to trigger in a series...   when I get a fail I make something else simple that i will need like sinew and then go back to the real crafting to break the fail train...  the fail train is real...  and has been reported.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Final assembly fail is tough, heartbreaking, deal with it if you do not have 80% chance or more you know the saying, a fool and his mats...

Experimentation fail is a matter of making good choices...  right now we have no blueprints so singly attempting perfect blue-purple level (4-6-8 pips at once) is more foolish because even a great or amazing result is using up your RNGeezus kharma.   Settling for a 30-40% increase in stats, min/max dmg, or dura by going one pip at a time just seems like common sense...   two pips or even 3 if you are feeling it...  this is not truely "fail"  this is lower quality than you hoped for but is still; probably better than what most are wearing in the current BW4.  As far as scrapping, it will probably be in but not with returns you would like, more likely sell the thing on the open market may get better returns...   suckers are born every day that want blues or purples just for show but have inferior stats due to fail or low gains from experiments.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Failures do seem to happen more often than I would expect with a 98% success chance, but you never know with RNG.

Edited by Jah

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We have noticed a tendency for failures to trigger in a series...   when I get a fail I make something else simple that i will need like sinew and then go back to the real crafting to break the fail train...  the fail train is real...  and has been reported.

 

This is the most important observation about crafting failures.

 

If there is autocorrelation in crafting failures it strongly implies that there is some kind of underlying bug...


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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I know if I try to make harvesting potions without first quaffing a crafting boost, I will almost always fail the first try and if I do, I seem to continue to fail at 100% certainty until I give up.  Success rate is somewhere in the 90s but it's not really.  On a boosted final combine on a spell book, which I think was either 60% or a bit higher, I succeeded once in two tries so that at least seems to be not completely messed up.

 

Definitely some outcome chains that defy the laws of probability as stated by the tooltips.  I assume this is still work-in-progress and not their highest priority at the moment so all we can/should do is document and provide feedback for now I guess.

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It's pretty simple, and it's been said multiple times already : failures fail.

They add nothing to the game experience but frustration, disappointment and anger. There is NO challenge in successfully passing a RNG test. This adds nothing to the pleasure of successfully crafting an item. Failures are just a dull gameplay mechanic when it comes to crafting. Besides when crafted items have a set durability.

Instead of failures, just look the other way around. If you absolutely want to see RNG in your crafting mechanics, then think of POSITIVE RNG tests. Replace your failure % by a critical success % which would make the crafted item better than what it was supposed to be. THIS is rewarding, THIS is positive, THIS is an incentive. 

No, you are not making your game hardcore with those failures, there are better ways to achieve that goal.


Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.

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There are a million MMOs out there with crafting systems that have 0 chance of failure.  These systems are all eventually pushed by the wayside and ignored except as maybe side quests because if there's 0 risk, there's 0 reward.  I am so tired of games that hold your hand through the crafting process.  I've been through enough of them since SWG shut down.  I just want ONE game where the whiners don't turn crafting into a cute little hobby that everyone can do when they're bored because theres no risk and the items suck.

 

This conversation is like raiders complaining that the bosses have a chance to kill them and take away all their expensive potion/food/doctor/whatever buffs without a guaranteed loot drop.  Its just absolutely silly that we have this expectation that because we're crafting something it should never fail.  Do you go into PvP and expect to win every battle?  I mean sure, you want to, but you're not going to.  Without the chance of losing the wins are meaningless.

 

I know some of you aren't arguing to get rid of the failures, and the above wasn't for you.  Honestly though, can we wait till all of the crafting systems like blueprints and mass production are in the game, and they've had time to run the numbers before we bring out the pitchforks and torches?

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This conversation is like raiders complaining that the bosses have a chance to kill them and take away all their expensive potion/food/doctor/whatever buffs without a guaranteed loot drop. Its just absolutely silly that we have this expectation that because we're crafting something it should never fail. Do you go into PvP and expect to win every battle? I mean sure, you want to, but you're not going to. Without the chance of losing the wins are meaningless.

This is a horrible analogy. Having the game RANDOMLY decide you fail at something is quite a bit different than screwing up and getting killed at a boss raid. The chance of succeeding at something should be based on skill (in this case, how much you have invested in the skill lines) not luck. Anyone that's played any korean mmo (specifically Archeage) can tell you how backbreaking and mind numbing RNG infested crafting systems are.

Edited by helix

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because if there's 0 risk, there's 0 reward.  I am so tired of games that hold your hand through the crafting process.

 

If you call "risk" a lottery system, then we clearly don't have the same definition of risk.

And again, I'm talking about enjoyment versus frustration. And I don't know about you, but I get no excitment in beating an RNG test.

Maybe you could keep the failure system for higher levels of crafting, but clearly I don't think it would be wise to keep it for the "mandatory" levels of crafting i.e. basic gears.


Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.

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I think this is untrue for a couple of reasons. Crafting isn't as much rng as you think. Once you get higher crafting or use a experiment/assembly potion It literally removes almost all RNG it boost things up to 90-98% assembly rate and i haven't failed an experiment while using the potions. The potions are cheap and easy to make 2 of any ore at the moment which is probably going to change in the future with a 75% success rate.

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There are a million MMOs out there with crafting systems that have 0 chance of failure.  These systems are all eventually pushed by the wayside and ignored except as maybe side quests because if there's 0 risk, there's 0 reward.  I am so tired of games that hold your hand through the crafting process.  I've been through enough of them since SWG shut down.  I just want ONE game where the whiners don't turn crafting into a cute little hobby that everyone can do when they're bored because theres no risk and the items suck.

 

This conversation is like raiders complaining that the bosses have a chance to kill them and take away all their expensive potion/food/doctor/whatever buffs without a guaranteed loot drop.  Its just absolutely silly that we have this expectation that because we're crafting something it should never fail.  Do you go into PvP and expect to win every battle?  I mean sure, you want to, but you're not going to.  Without the chance of losing the wins are meaningless.

 

I know some of you aren't arguing to get rid of the failures, and the above wasn't for you.  Honestly though, can we wait till all of the crafting systems like blueprints and mass production are in the game, and they've had time to run the numbers before we bring out the pitchforks and torches?

Sorry, but scientific research and study disagree with your assessment of people not liking it simply being "whiners".

 

Unless of course you have counter scientific studies and principles you would care to point out that explain away the near universal revulsion to the experience.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I think this is untrue for a couple of reasons. Crafting isn't as much rng as you think. Once you get higher crafting or use a experiment/assembly potion It literally removes almost all RNG it boost things up to 90-98% assembly rate and i haven't failed an experiment while using the potions. The potions are cheap and easy to make 2 of any ore at the moment which is probably going to change in the future with a 75% success rate.

 

It's 100% RNG, its just that with training your allowed to fix the slots to give you better odds.  

 

That is EXACTLY how T,Blair and Raph described it.

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If you call "risk" a lottery system, then we clearly don't have the same definition of risk.

And again, I'm talking about enjoyment versus frustration. And I don't know about you, but I get no excitment in beating an RNG test.

Maybe you could keep the failure system for higher levels of crafting, but clearly I don't think it would be wise to keep it for the "mandatory" levels of crafting i.e. basic gears.

 

Its only a lottery system because we can see the numbers. If they'd hide the numbers from us it would feel more realistic to people.  I'll give a real life example.  This guy I grew up with makes custom blades.  He does all kinds of stuff, from using Mammoth ivory on handles, to carbon fiber.  His blades have ranged from the finest carbon steel to taking railroad spikes, twisting them, and forging the spikes into some rather unique knives.  Sometimes when he does this, they just break.  The ivory cracks and is made useless because of an unseen flaw.  The metal he was using in the blade had too a weakness he didn't see and it snaps in half when its almost done after hours of work.

 

Yes, it sucks but its part of it.  Even master craftsmen have things go wrong.  Now am I saying he doesn't get materials back, sometimes yes, sometimes no, and  I think it would be a good idea for us to get some of the materials back we used in game crafting.  But the people yelling to completely obliterate the RNG are pushing the wrong way in my mind.  Bad things happen, it makes the good things all the much better. 

 

Sorry, but scientific research and study disagree with your assessment of people not liking it simply being "whiners".

 

Unless of course you have counter scientific studies and principles you would care to point out that explain away the near universal revulsion to the experience.

 

This is just as bad as the current year argument.   Lets try something fun with this statement!

 

Sorry, but scientific research and study that I'm not going to reference when I say this disagree with your assessment of people not having an alien creature from another planet attached to their spinal column controlling their thoughts!

 

Unless of course you have counter scientific studies and principles you would care to point out that explain how they don't!

 

Show me yours I'll show you mine.

Edited by Dreaming_Warrior

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