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ClockworkOrange

Knight Vs Legionaire = Bad PVP

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t

 

The real question is have YOU ever played ANY games at all? In competitive games usually you move.to not get shot hence mobility. Same goes for open world games. For having the most posts on the forum it's pretty funny how no one has ever seen you in-game but yet your the most vocal and loudest person on the forums.

In competitive games, characters often do not move at the same speed, that doesn't mean the slowest moving ones automatically lose, they have things called roles, that they fill. 

 

 

Mobility in crowfall = key to survival. You would know this if you actually played the game.

This simply isn't true. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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In competitive games, characters often do not move at the same speed, that doesn't mean the slowest moving ones automatically lose, they have things called roles, that they fill. 

 

 

This simply isn't true. 

 

This is a competitive open world full loot PVP game. Can you name me an example of another game in this type of category that has big differences in mobility and has done well?

 

Games in a similar genre that did well and had the same mobility would be Ultima Online and Darkfall. Ultima Online did in fact had a difference in mobility speed. It was called lag and it meant you couldn't PVP cause anyone would run from you or chase you down.

 

All you talk about is objectives. The majority of the game will be open world PVP encounters, not these objectives you keep talking about. Since 80% of battles (maybe more) are open world engagements that will be highly influenced by mobility, why would anyone choose a class that is significantly slower. By choosing a class that is significantly slower you are much more likely to be chased down by groups larger than you. You are also much more likely to watch the enemy run away. If you are a competitive PVP player, why would you want this?

 

Oh and since you have brought this up multiple times I will address it. You like to state that I just want my class to be the best at everything. This is clearly false as I mentioned in my OP that it is OK if a Legionaire can beat a Knight 1 v 1 every time as long as the Knight has the possibility of running (at an equal speed). This is a lazy counter argument and holds no weight. I have played every class in this game, you on the other hand haven't played the game. I can tell you which ATs are inherently better than others. The Champion is completely awful. This is my first pick for AT and I have tried to make it work, it simply doesn't and MOBILITY is one of the major reasons why. Knight is actually a good class. I don't agree with the many people on this thread who say the Knight desperately needs work, it doesn't. I can win the majority of 1 v 1 encounters as the Knight. The Knight needs a few things fixed in the kit that don't work correctly, but that isn't a flaw in the class. If the Knight had decent mobility he could peel correctly and force people to fight him with his positioning. Since he can be kited hard right now, pull doesn't work (bug, not design flaw) anyone who isn't a moron can easily ignore the Knight. Give him equal mobility to the other classes and his CC will become relevant enough that people will be forced to fight the Knight to get out of it. Right now if a Knight gets to you, your first move should be dash cause the Knight won't catch you.

Edited by Clockwork Orange

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The game will not and should not be balanced around 1v1 encounters.

 

This game isn't intended to be balanced around 1v1.  You should avoid seeking scenarios that your archetype does not excel at.

 

I strongly disagree with these types of arguments. I don't want to play rock paper scissors. Hard counters are not fun in this type of game, e.g. say class X one shots class Y, it's boring for the guy playing class X and frustrating for the guy playing class Y. These issues still stand even in group combat and may make unit composition too important as compared to player combat skill.

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The Knight needs a few things fixed in the kit that don't work correctly, but that isn't a flaw in the class. If the Knight had decent mobility he could peel correctly and force people to fight him with his positioning. Since he can be kited hard right now, pull doesn't work (bug, not design flaw) anyone who isn't a moron can easily ignore the Knight. Give him equal mobility to the other classes and his CC will become relevant enough that people will be forced to fight the Knight to get out of it. Right now if a Knight gets to you, your first move should be dash cause the Knight won't catch you.

 

This is very nearly the sum total of my complaints with the Knight AT as it currently exists. I can tolerate being slower if I'm still relevant once I get to the fight. But as it is right now in-game, I'm an easy target of opportunity that can also be reasonably ignored/kited away from in group fights. I don't enjoy that as a Knight AT player.

 

Anyway, this is approaching the realm of a dead horse. ACE made mention of it in the stream, and we should be pleased that they're honest in recognizing that because the Knight was the first AT, it has simply been left behind by more recent additions and changes to combat.

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The devs stated that during the livestream that that they can make initially weak characters stronger by giving them more available disciplines, while initially stronger archetypes get fewer, they did the same thing in shadowbane.  So a basic knight will be weaker than other classes, but by the time it levels up it will have a lot more options and could potentially be just as strong as other classes.  If anything it will give him far more options when it comes to builds than other archetypes.

 

but they said the knight is the weakest because he came out first and they've been trying to make more and more interesting concepts each time they develop a new archetype so of course he would be at the bottom of the barrel for now.

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This is a competitive open world full loot PVP game. Can you name me an example of another game in this type of category that has big differences in mobility and has done well?

 

Full loot and open world has nothing to do with this issue.  The fights themselves will not occur across an entire world at once and what you loot afterwards does not impact the actual fighting.  I can tell you that the biggest competitive games as well as esports all make use of differences in mobility as part of the tactical aspect of the game. 

 

Games in a similar genre that did well and had the same mobility would be Ultima Online and Darkfall. Ultima Online did in fact had a difference in mobility speed. It was called lag and it meant you couldn't PVP cause anyone would run from you or chase you down.

 

Crowfall is nothing like ultima online in regards to how the combat plays out, and very different from darkfall as well.  It is closer to games like smite, gw2, etc. 

 

All you talk about is objectives. The majority of the game will be open world PVP encounters, not these objectives you keep talking about. Since 80% of battles (maybe more) are open world engagements that will be highly influenced by mobility, why would anyone choose a class that is significantly slower. By choosing a class that is significantly slower you are much more likely to be chased down by groups larger than you. You are also much more likely to watch the enemy run away. If you are a competitive PVP player, why would you want this?

 

I am sorry but some classes will be better at fixed-point objective fighting and not as good at roaming pvp.  You can refuse to accept that and give feedback, but that won't change the reality of it.  ACE may balance things that they feel are out of whack, but they are not going to lose sleep over 1v1 balance. 

 

Competitive PvPers innovate the meta, I guarantee you that good players would find a way to use the current knight to excel in specific situations.  Just like they have in every competitive pvp game where some people think certain classes are bad or useless and better players often find great ways to use them. 

 

Oh and since you have brought this up multiple times I will address it. You like to state that I just want my class to be the best at everything. This is clearly false as I mentioned in my OP that it is OK if a Legionaire can beat a Knight 1 v 1 every time as long as the Knight has the possibility of running (at an equal speed). This is a lazy counter argument and holds no weight. I have played every class in this game, you on the other hand haven't played the game. I can tell you which ATs are inherently better than others. The Champion is completely awful. This is my first pick for AT and I have tried to make it work, it simply doesn't and MOBILITY is one of the major reasons why. Knight is actually a good class. I don't agree with the many people on this thread who say the Knight desperately needs work, it doesn't. I can win the majority of 1 v 1 encounters as the Knight. The Knight needs a few things fixed in the kit that don't work correctly, but that isn't a flaw in the class. If the Knight had decent mobility he could peel correctly and force people to fight him with his positioning. Since he can be kited hard right now, pull doesn't work (bug, not design flaw) anyone who isn't a moron can easily ignore the Knight. Give him equal mobility to the other classes and his CC will become relevant enough that people will be forced to fight the Knight to get out of it. Right now if a Knight gets to you, your first move should be dash cause the Knight won't catch you.

 

You play knight, you are upset at the way it loses to legio 1v1.  You even have this notion that you are supposed to be able to escape from classes you can't beat 1v1, which kind of makes me think you've never accepted a hard-counter dynamic in a pvp game. 

 

You can say I haven't played the game but I have, and that is a lazy counter-argument. 

 

Also just because you've played a game doesn't mean you know the meta.  There are plenty of people that sink tons of hours into games and they still don't grasp how things are.  Playing a game != knowing the intricacies.

 

I honestly think it is good to give feedback, I just think your motivations for wanting the knight changed aren't necessarily looking at a bigger picture.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't give your feedback though.

 

Anyway you've shared your thoughts on what it needs, I've shared my thoughts on why it shouldn't be balanced right now.  We will see where ACE goes with the knight.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

Well understood, physiological phenomenon and behavior.  

 

Frankly, NOBODY has played enough, in a stable enough environment without hitching, lag spikes, stuttered powers, etc, to even have a clue about what is and isn't really unbalanced.

 

We are all just kiddies trying on a pair of skates for the first time, and complaining that the nets too small.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaj2Kq5ggGw

I think feedback is good but I'd like to change the conversation a bit about how people often deliver it.

 

If someone wants to say, "In this iteration of testing the knight seems weak in situation X Y and Z for reasons 1 2 and 3", that is fine.  But I think it is rather inefficient when people come with the whole "omg this class is broken useless and impossible and needs saving or the sky will fall on it".

 

I personally think the knight is actually quite strong, just not quite so useful in the current setting.  He's tough as nails with his RMB up and if you get a few knights coordinating and cycling such things with proper support on top of it they are going to make cracking certain fixed point objects quite difficult.  His grip also provides a great opportunity for him to displace people and really pull them out of position.

 

You can't really ignore a displacer in large scale pvp because if they position correctly and displace you in the right spot you might just get immediately focus fired and instagibbed.

 

It's weird because it feels like some people in this thread assume that people can just bypass the knight and go for other targets, but in fixed-point objective you can't really ignore a class that can displace you and cc you and mitigate so much of your damage, especially in a game with actual projectiles and such. 

 

They think he will be easy to bypass because they run around as solo knights in an open world pre-alpha test with disorganized groups in general. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It's weird because it feels like some people in this thread assume that people can just bypass the knight and go for other targets, but in fixed-point objective you can't really ignore a class that can displace you and cc you and mitigate so much of your damage, especially in a game with actual projectiles and such. 

 

 

 

Why would I as a faster class engage at the fixed point objective when I could just as easily cut you off before you get to the objective. Speed equals choice. While I can think of games that have balanced slower classes (mechwarrior comes to mind) they did so by making the slower classes much stronger than the fast classes. In group combat the problems of slow speed actually become compounded not diminished, the faster my group is as a whole the easier it is to pick off stragglers or engage part of a formation then retreat.  

Edited by Sutr

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Why would I as a faster class engage at the fixed point objective when I could just as easily cut you off before you get to the objective. Speed equals choice. While I can think of games that have balanced slower classes (mechwarrior comes to mind) they did so by making the slower classes much stronger than the fast classes. In group combat the problems of slow speed actually become compounded not diminished, the faster my group is as a whole the easier it is to pick off stragglers or engage part of a formation then retreat.  

Fixed point guard at a harvesting site caravan.

 

Front line defender at a castle wall/entrance.

 

Tell me again how your cutting that off?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Fixed point guard at a harvesting site caravan.

 

Front line defender at a castle wall/entrance.

 

Tell me again how your cutting that off?

 

So they spawn at the caravan site?

 

They plan on never leaving the caste wall/entrance?

 

Wow so the knight is a class that is only viable when they never enter the open part of the open world, sounds like bad class design.  

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So they spawn at the caravan site?

 

They plan on never leaving the caste wall/entrance?

 

Wow so the knight is a class that is only viable when they never enter the open part of the open world, sounds like bad class design.  

 

Could change that to say.

 

"Wow, so assassin are most viable when they operate alone and can sneak up and deal with a character 1v1"

 

OR

 

"Wow, so crafters spend most of their time at a crafting table, sounds like bad role design".

 

Just because the Knight excels at "defend a specific" point role, does not make it any less valid option for a class design.

 

It's up to you if you happen to like that role or not, not that every class is good in every situation.

 

They also mentioned in the live stream that one of the balancing options was to give specific archetypes more disciplines.  So maybe the base knight kit is lack luster, but it may have 4 or more dicipline slots making it more versatile, while an already solid Leggo may only get 1 or 2.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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 Speed equals choice. 

 

this is a huge advantage. Especially with a ruleset that allows player looting and people will try every possible way to game the risk vs reward concept. If it gets live like this i expect it to be like darkfall with classes where there were like 3 typs of players:

 

1. solo and small group players which play the fastest class ingame.

2. zerglings in a zerg clan using every class.

3. people who are not part of a big clan and grinded a class which is not suitable for solo pvp and most likely will quit the game soon.

 

dying without a chance while your only mistake was to leave your safezone/city or whatever is frustrating as hell. 

 

the solution? maybe streamline every movement skill ingame but this probably won't work to 100%. They could do something with mounts which allows you to flee from fights you haven't committed to but this needs some very detailed balance to prevent people from running everytime they start to lose a fight.


 

Crowfall Wiki

 

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I too like to have a 5 page discussion about balance in pre-alpha....lol. Guess this is what happens when people get bored inbetween play tests. 

Edited by bsbllclown

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So they spawn at the caravan site?

 

They plan on never leaving the caste wall/entrance?

 

Wow so the knight is a class that is only viable when they never enter the open part of the open world, sounds like bad class design.  

 

The knight needs more mobility. I just don't think his mobility should be as good or free range against enemy classes because it would be too strong of a counter to confessors (and maybe druids). I think the shield lunge is fine for going after enemies. It's annoying, clunky to use and has a long cool down but I see these as necessary drawbacks when it comes to offense. What the knight needs to do better at is defense. He needs to be able to watch who is attacking his allies and be able to step in and do something about it. The problem currently is not so much that he can't keep up with his enemies, it's that he is unable to keep up with his allies because either he can't get to them in time, or they just use their own mobility to get even farther away.

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I just for the first time read through the entirety of this thread, and all I could really see from it was some of the best knight players in CF being told they don't know what they're talking about by a guy nobody has ever seen play the game. Did I miss anything?

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At the moment with 'Big World' mobility is a key attribute to chase down opponents and win encounters. That doesn't mean to say that it will always stay that way. However, saying that - with all 'Open World' encounters mobility will still be a key attribute but there will be many objectives in the campaigns, choke points, POIs, sieges etc that mobility will not be as important.

 

So its not as 'black and white; to say that mobility is the best or it isn't. It will depend on the situation.

 

Also the ATs will never be perfectly balanced 1v1 given the same skill level of the players. To all those player who think it will that is not the design aim and I believe it will be impossible to achieve.

 

At the moment the ATs are broken and very unbalanced - that will change when ACE get round to all the other ATs that are not implemented. The ATs will be better balanced but you will not get perfectly balanced 1v1 fights.

 

Each AT will have their roles in group fights and that is where the skill will be. Choosing the right AT mix for a certain situation.


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Mobility is just one issue and, by itself, isn't really a problem. Every archetype should be bad at something. It's when you combine it with low damage and a lack of utility that the design needs to be rethought a bit. I mean, if a knight could make someone pay when they catch them, that would be something, but right now we can unload everything, get the target to half health, and then watch while they dash away and get healed to full.

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I just for the first time read through the entirety of this thread, and all I could really see from it was some of the best knight players in CF being told they don't know what they're talking about by a guy nobody has ever seen play the game. Did I miss anything?

Who would you say are the best knight players in CF?  IMO the best knight players in CF have not posted here.  

 

Mobility is just one issue and, by itself, isn't really a problem. Every archetype should be bad at something. It's when you combine it with low damage and a lack of utility that the design needs to be rethought a bit. I mean, if a knight could make someone pay when they catch them, that would be something, but right now we can unload everything, get the target to half health, and then watch while they dash away and get healed to full.

And what exactly is the issue?  You want your tanky front-line disrupter to be able to kill someone 1v1?  This isn't a 1v1 game.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Who would you say are the best knight players in CF?  IMO the best knight players in CF have not posted here.  

 

And what exactly is the issue?  You want your tanky front-line disrupter to be able to kill someone 1v1?  This isn't a 1v1 game.

I never said it was, but I'm not going to argue with someone who doesn't actually play the game.

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