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Anhrez

My concerns on the current Social Gathering requirements

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First let me say I am a fan of group dynamics in crafting and in MMO's in general, but the current format is not incentiv-zing social play its forcing it.

 

Jewelcrafting, Alchemy and Necromancy all require grouping for basic mats? that seems too much. Instead of forcing multiple players into the efforts just give a higher percentage or a higher quality in cooperative efforts.

Motherlodes have 20% chance basic nodes have 5%  

 or 

Motherlodes have green and above mats regualr nodes have chance at grey and white 

 

 

I hate seeing abitrary limiters on gathering and crafting to force social play ... seems like incetiv-zing it would make more sense 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Mother lodes or not, harvesting will be a group activity. Anyone out harvesting solo will risk being killed and looted. They will need protection. Whether you have 1 or more people doing the harvesting is irrelevant because you will need at least a full group so there are people protecting those doing the harvesting.

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Mother lodes or not, harvesting will be a group activity. Anyone out harvesting solo will risk being killed and looted. They will need protection. Whether you have 1 or more people doing the harvesting is irrelevant because you will need at least a full group so there are people protecting those doing the harvesting.

 

Agreed with above, but on a side note mining is just much more fun in groups. :)

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Mother lodes or not, harvesting will be a group activity. Anyone out harvesting solo will risk being killed and looted. They will need protection. Whether you have 1 or more people doing the harvesting is irrelevant because you will need at least a full group so there are people protecting those doing the harvesting.

 

I agree but why so many behind the limiter? if group harvesting is it why not Leather working and Blacksmithing also? right now it feels arbitrary 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I can see your point. You are confused why they require harvesting to be a group activity while crafting would not be a group activity. Push restrictions on one type of player while not putting the same restrictions on another.

 

Its actually a very valid question. However, its important to note that you CAN harvest by yourself, you just assume all risk and harvesting deficiency. 

 

Although, in theory the restrictions exist for a crafting as well. It comes in the form of requiring crafted components that another crafter can produce.

 

Example would be making a 1 handed book. It requires a metal clasp that is made in blacksmithing, also requires chapters that are made in rune crafting. But the last recipe step is in woodcrafting.

 

This sort of creates the dependencies. However, i would argue that these are passive dependencies, not active dependencies that harvesting has. After all, you can always just buy this stuff from a vendor, a harvester does not have the luxury of buying a slave to help them harvest.

 

But i mean, not all game play is supposed to be equal, right?

 

(But lets ignore the elephant in the room that in practice, the crafter will have 2-3 other accounts to make themselves the other components, so the passive dependencies actually dont exist.)

Edited by Vectious

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I can see your point. You are confused why they require harvesting to be a group activity while crafting would not be a group activity. Push restrictions on one type of player while not putting the same restrictions on another.

 

Its actually a very valid question. However, its important to note that you CAN harvest by yourself, you just assume all risk and harvesting deficiency. 

 

Although, in theory the restrictions exist for a crafting as well. It comes in the form of requiring crafted components that another crafter can produce.

 

Example would be making a 1 handed book. It requires a metal clasp that is made in blacksmithing, also requires chapters that are made in rune crafting. But the last recipe step is in woodcrafting.

 

This sort of creates the dependencies. However, i would argue that these are passive dependencies, not active dependencies that harvesting has. After all, you can always just buy this stuff from a vendor, a harvester does not have the luxury of buying a slave to help them harvest.

 

But i mean, not all game play is supposed to be equal, right?

 

(But lets ignore the elephant in the room that in practice, the crafter will have 2-3 other accounts to make themselves the other components, so the passive dependencies actually dont exist.)

 

This.

 

As someone getting into harvesting for the final game, this is going to be a choice I make.

 

Also, harvesting doesn't have be to a group activity, if no group is around.

 

Grab a white, mobile vessel, currently confessor, and race around the map looking for nodes with just the basic book.  It's a bit like a mad dash through zombies, just keep your eyes peeled and expect to run home with your loots frequently.

 

I could probably run for an hour without needing to dump to the spirit bank.

 

If we find that mother load resources are very essential, then it won't just be harvesters that will want to join those groups.  Everyone will want a piece of the rare resource action.

 

Right now, it's not that important, simply because we are just messing around and getting wiped frequently anyway, so there is no huge incentive to even try to make master craft anything, the life expectancy of those items just isn't worth it.  When your in a 6 month campaign, people are going to be more focused on getting the important things as a group.

 

Right now its chickens with heads cut off mostly.

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I agree but why so many behind the limiter? if group harvesting is it why not Leather working and Blacksmithing also? right now it feels arbitrary 

While its true that crafting is currently solo play i belive that will change in the future.

 

There are a few hints to this.

The first and strongest one is the Leadership skill tree. There is an entire line dedicated to crafting in a group.

 

The second hint are the crafting stations. One they are in a game you will no longer be able to craft most stuff without them.  If my memory servs me right i even belive the devs said something along the line of crafting together but im not shure.

 

The third hint is the crafting time: The devs said that the current crafting time is but a very small potion of what it is in the final game. I belive in on of the older vids they put around that it would take hours a singel item later on.

The Experimitation 1 sec per try will also get longer.

Just like harvesting will be done in groups to be effective time wise its natural to think for crafting the same.

 

I mean in theory 1 player just needs to start the crafting proess and others that join would speed up the prozess depending on the crafting skill level they have.

It is entirely possible that the devs planned crafting to be a group activity from the beginning but are unsure whenever they can pull it of until release. That leaves us with waiting for news on this part.


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I sorta discussed this with Ahnrez on the side, but basically it boils down to doing things differently in Crowfall.

 

In literally every other MMO, Crafting and Gathering is basically a solo experience. There is almost no need for any players to speak to another person, even more so if an auction house of some kind exists.

 

They want to bring back that social aspect to the Massively Multiplayer genre, and are doing so by requiring EVEN the crafters to work together to make final products. I personally think right now in the pre-alpha this is more cumbersome then they intend, but thats simply because we don't have useful things like guild banks to store intermediary components and we absolutely don't have blueprints/factories yet.

 

Introduce those and you'll still need to talk with guild mates to produce things, but it won't always be necessary if you plan things out in your organization/guild/faction/etc.


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.....

I hate seeing abitrary limiters on gathering and crafting to force social play ... seems like incetiv-zing it would make more sense 

 

The nodes that require you to be a group to harvest aren't a limit that force you to do anything.

Just don't harvest them.  Harvest nodes which don't require a grp.

​If you don't want to grp, don't do it.

​There is nothing about either which force you to do anything.

 

​It's not your limitation...  It's your choice.

 

These nodes are providing content for the players who wish to grp.  Who want the grp play.  They are POI and vital for the game to get players to embrace the PvP aspect. 

Edited by Soulreaver

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The nodes that require you to be a group to harvest aren't a limit that force you to do anything.

Just don't harvest them.  Harvest nodes which don't require a grp.

​If you don't want to grp, don't do it.

​There is nothing about either which force you to do anything.

 

​It's not your limitation...  It's your choice.

 

These nodes are providing content for the players who wish to grp.  Who want the grp play.  They are POI and vital for the game to get players to embrace the PvP aspect. 

the limit is the materials that come out of them, so they do force you do do something?

POI makes sense for group play but no way every Motherlode is a POI.... They are just nodes holding materials only multiple players can get and solo players cannot .


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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the limit is the materials that come out of them, so they do force you do do something?

POI makes sense for group play but no way every Motherlode is a POI.... They are just nodes holding materials only multiple players can get and solo players cannot .

Why not?

 

That's a pretty bold assumption you got going there.

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In literally every other MMO, Crafting and Gathering is basically a solo experience. There is almost no need for any players to speak to another person, even more so if an auction house of some kind exists.

Not entirely correct. It was solo only to grind the early levels.

 

At the higher level crafting to make the good items you not only need components from other crafting disciplines but you would sometimes need rare material that you could only get in a dungeon with a group with you.

 

Of course you could always make a alt to bypass the component restriction, or just buy the material.

 

In this aspect, crowfall with be no different.

 

However, the  group harvesting replaces the dungeon raiding. In this way its a little different, even though the end result is sorta the same. 


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It's just the nature of the beast. While there were times I would farm items/gold from NPCs in Shadowbane the majority of farming was done in large groups, preferably with multiple groups around one camp. Safety in numbers, remember, this is war!


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Why not?

 

That's a pretty bold assumption you got going there.

I'll stick buy it till proven wrong .... Motherlodes may be combat points ... but if we go over what has been shared about POI's 

 

per the FAQ 

POINTS of INTEREST are the resources of strategic importance, which are scattered all over the map. Some of these have direct game impart (like a Quarry that produces Stone, which you need to build structures), others have indirect influence (like a giant lake or a mountain range that hinders travel.)

 

Is every node formation that has a motherlode a Quarry ? seems like these would be the buildings like the Lumber Mill and the Quarry style building we see scattered around the map or specfically designed features on the map not random node locations. If a team clears all of the nodes in a Silver spawn the POI disappears? Seems unlikely to me versus more structured locations on the map. 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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Not entirely correct. It was solo only to grind the early levels.

 

At the higher level crafting to make the good items you not only need components from other crafting disciplines but you would sometimes need rare material that you could only get in a dungeon with a group with you.

 

Of course you could always make a alt to bypass the component restriction, or just buy the material.

 

In this aspect, crowfall with be no different.

 

However, the  group harvesting replaces the dungeon raiding. In this way its a little different, even though the end result is sorta the same. 

your point is solid about the team aspect similar dungeons ... I guess my point is that in its current iterations only certain players can be useful in certain crafting options right now. 

I just would rather see an incentive to be social that encourages and rewards social and strategic game play then an arbitrary decision that this crafting option can be done solo but this one cannot 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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Perhaps in a specific World of Warcraft sense, but typically by the end game point crafting is relegated to early progression and quickly replaced by actual dropped gear from said bosses.

 

It seems to differ in almost every tier of WoW, but for the most part crafters are only useful right at the outset of a new dungeon progression tier, and then not again until the next tier.

 

This is a stretch of the social implementation they are planning on right now, where one must actually have conversations with other players about the stats you'd want on a component, as well as simply finding the right person to make the component. Its an order of magnitude higher in terms of social interactions, than the games you are referencing.


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I'll stick buy it till proven wrong .... Motherlodes may be combat points ... but if we go over what has been shared about POI's 

 

per the FAQ 

POINTS of INTEREST are the resources of strategic importance, which are scattered all over the map. Some of these have direct game impart (like a Quarry that produces Stone, which you need to build structures), others have indirect influence (like a giant lake or a mountain range that hinders travel.)

 

Is every node formation that has a motherlode a Quarry ? seems like these would be the buildings like the Lumber Mill and the Quarry style building we see scattered around the map or specfically designed features on the map not random node locations. If a team clears all of the nodes in a Silver spawn the POI disappears? Seems unlikely to me versus more structured locations on the map.

 

 

Depends on how they define this (from the same FAQ)

 

(i.e. the Campaign will last 3 months, and the victor is “whichever team holds the most terrain at the end.” Other Campaigns can have a triggering event, “the first team to capture all twelve flags.”)

Its a question of how one would "hold the most terrain".

 

What does it take to consider terrain "held".  Do you set up fortifications around resource nodes, trying to make mini forts and tower complexes with thralls on KOS to enemies until they siege them down? Maybe the more you mine the resource node, the more it becomes "yours".

 

If it's designed so that owning a mother load stone turns that node into your factions, and the game is like go, where you try to connect nodes to mark your "territory",  then yes I can see individual nodes be POI's.  

 

Every node a potential and constant battle for control.  Sounds like a war simulator to me.

 

Every play Company of Hero's?  They did something like that.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-spdu2UZ9P8

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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My only problem with this method is that certain certain crafters get completely gimped by this limitation. With minerals and gems only coming from motherlodes, those crafters get potentially more limited (mainly looking at jewelcrafters and necromancers). Any other crafter can do their basic crafts from regular nodes and thus could even do limited harvesting on a character untrained in gathering and still have the potential to create something.

 

I dont mind making minerals and gems have an increased rarity on normal nodes but to hide these behind motherlodes just adds an increased barrier for these professions that doesn't exist for any of the others. Making them more likely to drop from motherlodes still adds purpose and value to these due to the increased reward of quantity and potentially the quality of the materials.

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Depends on how they define this (from the same FAQ)

 

Its a question of how one would "hold the most terrain".

 

What does it take to consider terrain "held".  Do you set up fortifications around resource nodes, trying to make mini forts and tower complexes with thralls on KOS to enemies until they siege them down? Maybe the more you mine the resource node, the more it becomes "yours".

 

If it's designed so that owning a mother load stone turns that node into your factions, and the game is like go, where you try to connect nodes to mark your "territory",  then yes I can see individual nodes be POI's.  

 

Every node a potential and constant battle for control.  Sounds like a war simulator to me.

 

Every play Company of Hero's?  They did something like that.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-spdu2UZ9P8

 

A good suggestion and definitely workable with the way they're talking about POIs.

 

Something a bit more dynamic would be akin to the game The Settlers 3 where the player (or guild in Crowfall) would build a structure and it would then claim territory in a set radius around that building. Might be harder to code and then have to make the server calculate the amount of controlled territory at the end of a CW. 

 

Would make crafters much more relevant if they're out in the field setting up basic fortifications on hilltops or other strategically valuable places and vulnerable while they're doing so.

 

But I recall the last live stream they mentioned that they were as-yet uncertain if player-building was going to be free-form as in games like Rust, or restricted to pre-set tiles. So we need to wait until they work out the details a little more.

Edited by Rhast

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A good suggestion and definitely workable with the way they're talking about POIs.

 

Something a bit more dynamic would be akin to the game The Settlers 3 where the player (or guild in Crowfall) would build a structure and it would then claim territory in a set radius around that building. Might be harder to code and then have to make the server calculate the amount of controlled territory at the end of a CW. 

 

Would make crafters much more relevant if they're out in the field setting up basic fortifications on hilltops or other strategically valuable places and vulnerable while they're doing so.

 

But I recall the last live stream they mentioned that they were as-yet uncertain if player-building was going to be free-form as in games like Rust, or restricted to pre-set tiles. So we need to wait until they work out the details a little more.

They could simply make an area beside every node include a build-able tile.  Not necessarily directly beside, but somewhere close you could put up a fortification building.

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