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Anhrez

My concerns on the current Social Gathering requirements

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They could simply make an area beside every node include a build-able tile.  Not necessarily directly beside, but somewhere close you could put up a fortification building.

 

They could yes. I lean more towards the free-build system (within reason) so that the players can decide what location best suits their interests rather than be restricted to pre-defined 'build here' tiles. I imagine "supply" outposts built in areas with low tactical/resource value but contribute to a larger strategic push into hostile territory by serving as places to cache much-needed food, equipment, and replacement vessels to support raids.

 

As interested as I am, it's a moot point until ACE develop the systems further. 

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I agree with the OP. The reason sandbox style games appeal to me is that they don't have limiting rule-sets. Whether or not a person needs guards to be successful should be influenced by risk/reward not hard coded requirements. It doesn't make sense to say that I can't chop down a tree alone but, if I have a friend I can. Id rather have the option of harvesting alone and getting half the resources. If I'm traveling between 2 points on the map and I see a motherload node, I then have to stop what I'm doing, contact guild members and wait for them to travel to my location just to get some bonus drops? What if Im playing at 4am and my guild is asleep? I just take my 2 years of harvesting training and use it as a pillow to cry into?

 

Here are some ideas that make the concept more fun:

 

1) When you harvest a motherload mode, it spawns an ore elemental and you have to kill it to get the ore but, its very hard to kill for a harvester.

2) You can harvest a motherload node if you've mastered all the harvesting trees.

3) You can imbue a tool with enough stats to allow solo harvesting.

4) The leadership buff applies to yourself if you have a pet like a pack pig.

5) Allow Thralls to act as second group members while harvesting ore.

6) Allow crafted vehicles which act as expensive harvesting tools (ex: excavators, threshers)

7) Allow vessels to increase the harvesting skill cap above master level.

 

These are ideas I came up with on-the-fly that mostly require specialized gear or team play to achieve but, don't put a hard requirement on access.

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I agree but why so many behind the limiter? if group harvesting is it why not Leather working and Blacksmithing also? right now it feels arbitrary 

 

easy. we need to buy more accounts for twinks-crafters at start. more twinkzzz = more $$$$


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I'm not quite sure why so many people have failed to address the OP's original point, which is that ML nodes being the only source for a particular needed material, forcing any crafter needing that material to either trade for it or enlist the aid of others. I'm not saying this is a problem - it is the case for any crafters who want any high-end material, they will need to rely on others to acquire it - but it is a very valid and obvious point to make.

 

Some crafters will be limited in this way and others won't. That may or may not be fair or an issue, but it is definitely the case.

Edited by Anthrage

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I have spent some time attacking Motherlodes with a partner, and this was before we knew the drops rates where bad/non-existent. It does create a useful game interaction, I do like the social aspect. its just the hard limiter that keeps making me wonder why?

 

is there an Epic Boar that spawns that takes 2 players to skin?

is there some magical talking tree it takes 2 players to chop down? (lol oh and imagine what its saying to us as we chop)

 

From what I see so far Vessels are the best (and only crafted) path to gaining Attributes. We can add stats on our crafted weapons and armor but if you want + strength or + intellect you spec your skills for it and/or craft your Vessels for it. This could be just my limited vision into the mechanics so far, so if anyone has stumbled across something that is to the contrary please let me know.

 

So a very impactful part of the game is now behind a forced social construct. The FAQs state

 

________________________

 

10. WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE TO “BRING BACK” CRAFTING AS A PRIMARY ROLE?

 

In the early days of MMO development, games allowed for a much deeper degree of role specialization. The design of our crafting and economic systems are similar to early MMO titles titles (such as Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Eve Online and Shadowbane).

From a very high altitude, crafters need:

  • To be able to craft unique items, explore new recipes,
  • To be able to create customized items for all different styles of play,
  • To have an audience to buy their goods, and
  • Need the ability generate a profit (or a loss) from these efforts.

This requires an interdependent loop between crafter(s) and combatant(s). Additionally, we want to make sure that crafters can “mark” their product, so that they can build a social reputation and a following

 

___________________________________________

 

This mechanic in its current state (again I realize its my opinion) Social Gathering does not feel like an interdependent loop, but a more like requirement leash.

 

I am supposed to be able to play as a crafter ....

 

if i want to play as a Confessor what if a major part of your game play took 2 or more people to cast? 

 

If you are a Knight and not in a guild through your hard work you can still beat another Knight one on one. you would have to maybe overcome their better armor but through your skill, your smarts in your skill options/training, effort in understanding your class you could still beat a large guild Knight in one on one combat.

 

I just want a path (regardless how narrow) to succeed without limiters on my class that are not seen on others? 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I have spent some time attacking Motherlodes with a partner, and this was before we knew the drops rates where bad/non-existent. It does create a useful game interaction, I do like the social aspect. its just the hard limiter that keeps making me wonder why?

 

is there an Epic Boar that spawns that takes 2 players to skin?

is there some magical talking tree it takes 2 players to chop down? (lol oh and imagine what its saying to us as we chop)

 

From what I see so far Vessels are the best (and only crafted) path to gaining Attributes. We can add stats on our crafted weapons and armor but if you want + strength or + intellect you spec your skills for it and/or craft your Vessels for it. This could be just my limited vision into the mechanics so far, so if anyone has stumbled across something that is to the contrary please let me know.

 

So a very impactful part of the game is now behind a forced social construct. The FAQs state

 

________________________

 

10. WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE TO “BRING BACK” CRAFTING AS A PRIMARY ROLE?

 

In the early days of MMO development, games allowed for a much deeper degree of role specialization. The design of our crafting and economic systems are similar to early MMO titles titles (such as Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Eve Online and Shadowbane).

From a very high altitude, crafters need:

  • To be able to craft unique items, explore new recipes,
  • To be able to create customized items for all different styles of play,
  • To have an audience to buy their goods, and
  • Need the ability generate a profit (or a loss) from these efforts.

This requires an interdependent loop between crafter(s) and combatant(s). Additionally, we want to make sure that crafters can “mark” their product, so that they can build a social reputation and a following

 

___________________________________________

 

This mechanic in its current state (again I realize its my opinion) Social Gathering does not feel like an interdependent loop, but a more like requirement leash.

 

I am supposed to be able to play as a crafter ....

 

if i want to play as a Confessor what if a major part of your game play took 2 or more people to cast? 

 

If you are a Knight and not in a guild through your hard work you can still beat another Knight one on one. you would have to maybe overcome their better armor but through your skill, your smarts in your skill options/training, effort in understanding your class you could still beat a large guild Knight in one on one combat.

 

I just want a path (regardless how narrow) to succeed without limiters on my class that are not seen on others? 

 

I agree with your underlying position except for one thing:

 

 

This mechanic in its current state (again I realize its my opinion) Social Gathering does not feel like an interdependent loop, but a more like requirement leash.

 

It's more a statement of fact than opinion.  The only other option available for a single individual to acquire ground cinnabar in the current motherlode node system is  to trade or be gifted the item (one will note that option also involves a social requirement).  As such, it is not "fair" (and I personally detest using that word most of the time, but please understand it to mean the more standard definition of fairness in this context - treat like things in like ways) because a leather gatherer has the option to gather leather solo (but will obviously do it better in groups) but a mineral gather is completely unable to gather minerals solo.

 

One might suggest the counter-argument that we are not comparing "like" gathering professions here (making this only an opinion), but my understanding is ACE wishes to avoid tiered systems (like they just removed from the ore harvesting system) and also the minerals function very similar to leather (both are the initial materials in a branch of the crafting system as opposed to additives which enter the crafting system on different levels of the system and are optional).  For these reasons, as well as a few others, that's not really a fair criticism and we are comparing like things when I use the word "fair" here.

 

The part of your post which I think you are couching as "opinion" is if that (the disparity) is necessarily a good or bad thing and you seem to be saying it overall feels like a limitation to your ability to play as you would want at any given time.  That is, of course, harder to judge, but I agree with you.  Despite having other people I play with, they are not always around or they are taking care of something else leaving me time to do something solo (even for a brief amount of time).  As it is currently, I cannot choose to gather cinnabar solo (or, in the past before the fix, try to harvest it to no avail) at all in these situations. 

 

As such, I tend to agree the hard limit on harvesting motherload nodes should be somehow revised or that another source of now motherload-node-exclusive materials be introduced.  As I believe you noted earlier, putting a 5% drop on the small nodes might solve this.  Alternatively, perhaps ACE can keep the Motherload node regen mechanic, but only allow it to regen a portion of the previous strike's damage over time.  While this second solution might be more complicated, it solves the underlying concern and would incentive group gathering over solo gathering of motherload nodes. 

 

(skip this paragraph if you don't like math) So, for example, say a motherload node has 1000 "HP" to start with (I don't have the actual numbers to work with, but this idea can be scaled accordingly).  Say a hit of a gathering tool does 100 "HP" of damage (so 10 hits destroys the node as normal).  However, after each hit from a player, the node regenerates 90% of the damage it just took over the time of a harvesting animation (such that it regenerates 90 "HP" and stops regenerating just before the same player's harvest tool hits it again).  This means it will actually take a single player roughly 91 hits of the tool to destroy the node.  That's enough to disincentive it, but make it possible.  However, with two people over the same period of time, the amount of regen is roughly cut in half per strike so roughly 50 damage per hit (on average - actually 55 but rounding helps the example).  Therefore with two people, it will only take a little less than 20 hits or about 10 per player which is what we have now.  If we add more people, it lowers the effective regen even further, but you get the idea (it takes 1 stamina bar from two people in this example instead of roughly 10 stamina bars from the solo person).

 

Personally, I am not a fan of the "regenerating rock" idea in the first place, but if it's something ACE or the community likes, I think this is a much less confining way of using the mechanic.  Moreover, it overcomes the idea one "can't" do something - which is a huge mental barrier.  Instead, it makes it far less optimal to do it solo - which is not as concerning.

 

TL;DR Making it possible to acquire minerals or similar materials solo is probably better and more fair to gatherers and my personal feeling is I don't like "regenerating rocks."

 

Also, I apologize for the parentheticals.  I would add them as footnotes if I could.

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Well.. thing is.. When you need more players to do one task you start multi-boxing. In EVE Online I had 5 accounts, 1 Rorqual handing out bonusses, sitting inside a big POS shield.. 1 hauler flying from and to the mining Hulks.. 1 tanking Hulk to mitigate the damage from the NPC's and 2 maxed out mining hulks.. This was basically the limit what I was able to handle as a human :)

 

The problem with EVE was the monthly costs of 5 accounts but I was able to buy plexes and played for free.. In Crowfall there isn't a monthly cost unless you want VIP bonuses. 

 

So I really want to advice the Crowfall team to consider other mechanics then, the 2-person needed to mine mechanic for example, or else everybody starts to multi-box. And when campaigns have a playerlimit those multiboxers will use up valuable spots.

 

And lets be honest, with a competitive game like Crowfall, players will look for the fastest and cheapest way to achive their goals. 

 

oh and.. maybe you know this guy from Crowfall videos (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUb2nJ_RbQ ) but he shows how he multibox the mining in EVE (link:

). Oh I hear people saying "But EVE is in space, you just hang there and press buttons.. Crowfall you actually have to move around" .. well.. Check this out
Edited by Daddie

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Well.. thing is.. When you need more players to do one task you start multi-boxing. In EVE Online I had 5 accounts, 1 Rorqual handing out bonusses, sitting inside a big POS shield.. 1 hauler flying from and to the mining Hulks.. 1 tanking Hulk to mitigate the damage from the NPC's and 2 maxed out mining hulks.. This was basically the limit what I was able to handle as a human :)

 

The problem with EVE was the monthly costs of 5 accounts but I was able to buy plexes and played for free.. In Crowfall there isn't a monthly cost unless you want VIP bonuses. 

 

So I really want to advice the Crowfall team to consider other mechanics then, the 2-person needed to mine mechanic for example, or else everybody starts to multi-box. And when campaigns have a playerlimit those multiboxers will use up valuable spots.

 

And lets be honest, with a competitive game like Crowfall, players will look for the fastest and cheapest way to achive their goals. 

 

oh and.. maybe you know this guy from Crowfall videos (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUb2nJ_RbQ ) but he shows how he multibox the mining in EVE (link:

). Oh I hear people saying "But EVE is in space, you just hang there and press buttons.. Crowfall you actually have to move around" .. well.. Check this out

So you handled 5 pretty well against predictable NPC's in a game model where reflexes were not the be all and end all.

 

That video only showed me what looked like tab targeting combat, with zero anti team strategy being used.

 

Sorry, but that has not convinced me you could multi box effectively in CF, any more than multibox, or even macros, are a big problem in League of Legends.

 

Show me someone doing a multibox in that game in a ranked match and lasting more than 30 minutes, and maybe ill buy your argument.

 

But by all means, prove me wrong.  Big world will be up next week.  Go sort a multibox out, and come a play with my friends.  

 

We will be more than happy to loot your dead bodies.

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First let me say I am a fan of group dynamics in crafting and in MMO's in general, but the current format is not incentiv-zing social play its forcing it.

 

Jewelcrafting, Alchemy and Necromancy all require grouping for basic mats? that seems too much. Instead of forcing multiple players into the efforts just give a higher percentage or a higher quality in cooperative efforts.

Motherlodes have 20% chance basic nodes have 5%  

 or 

Motherlodes have green and above mats regualr nodes have chance at grey and white 

 

 

I hate seeing abitrary limiters on gathering and crafting to force social play ... seems like incetiv-zing it would make more sense 

 

I agree, forced social activity for gathering resources seems troublesome.

Incentives that benefit social activity seems way more pleasing.

 

Well.. thing is.. When you need more players to do one task you start multi-boxing. In EVE Online I had 5 accounts, 1 Rorqual handing out bonusses, sitting inside a big POS shield.. 1 hauler flying from and to the mining Hulks.. 1 tanking Hulk to mitigate the damage from the NPC's and 2 maxed out mining hulks.. This was basically the limit what I was able to handle as a human :)

 

The problem with EVE was the monthly costs of 5 accounts but I was able to buy plexes and played for free.. In Crowfall there isn't a monthly cost unless you want VIP bonuses. 

 

So I really want to advice the Crowfall team to consider other mechanics then, the 2-person needed to mine mechanic for example, or else everybody starts to multi-box. And when campaigns have a playerlimit those multiboxers will use up valuable spots.

 

And lets be honest, with a competitive game like Crowfall, players will look for the fastest and cheapest way to achive their goals. 

 

oh and.. maybe you know this guy from Crowfall videos (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUb2nJ_RbQ ) but he shows how he multibox the mining in EVE (link:

). Oh I hear people saying "But EVE is in space, you just hang there and press buttons.. Crowfall you actually have to move around" .. well.. Check this out

 

I remember Eve online and the multi-boxing fiasco.

So many did this, including me.

Because this was the only way to conduct some activities, as corporation members were not always online to assist.

It was more a headache to manage than anything remotely fun.

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I agree with OP's basic premise. I'd prefer it if:

 

  1. solo node = ore/stone + small chance to get mineral/gem

 

  2. mother lode =  3x amount of ore/stone + greater chance to get mineral/gem

 

And yes, I do think there should be something equivalent to a "mother lode" for leather, wood, and body parts  :lol:


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And yes, I do think there should be something equivalent to a "mother lode" for leather, wood, and body parts  :lol:

 

As long as our underlying concern is solved, I would also agree with this.  It would not be too hard to justify either: leather = large/special animal variants that also may drop the special additives ACE has mentioned in passing (or potentially different creatures entirely - wyvern for example); wood = large trees (some of the trees are already pretty large, but this would also add some aesthetic benefit to the world by having different sized trees of the same kind - trees of the same kind being exactly the same can get a little boring); body parts = mass graves or special crypts (maybe even protected/patrolled by Risen) (this is perhaps the easiest variant to introduce because it can be placed in the center of the current graveyards although placing it elsewhere might be more interesting - my overarching thought is the more variance in the POIs, the better).

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Harvesters will just use alts for the MLs, mainly to get minerals and gems. 

 

Guilds will have a platoon of miner / harvester alts from their core player/fighter types. It is a necessity because no one can count 100% on random harvesters they do not know, so alt harvesters are needed to make walls and etc. 

 

Sure the outer circle of guilds or factions will have some harvesting capability, but ya just can't count on it, (unless a trade system is established). Yhis is the reason why "group" harvesting is really a mirage, (was in SWG, is in Eve, will be in CF) - its alts you see, not a group of different players!

 

Most harvesting will be done solo, or in the case of a pro harvester, their main and alt. So yeah, I think the limit of ML to 2+ people is non-sensical. One can say a player "should" be doing this or that, but a harvester will always maximize efficiency of their time for highest profit and one can easily do it solo/with mule alt. 

 

The issue with group dependency of harvesting is time and return. Every other real person not only reduces yield/profit but also is a mega time waster, when by the time things get organized one may need to logoff (complete loss) or could have harvested more solo / withalt. Harvesting should be modeled after the crafter, individual action, collective dependencies.

Edited by Ironmike

The%20Crowfall%20Economist%20Official%20

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Not seeing that Mike... It only takes one trained harvester and x others with higher quality tool, they do not even have to be grouped.   Harvesters often make good scouts, avoidance and awareness skill sets align...   for mother lode harvests have a few of your roving combat group move in to help the main harvester...   then move off to the next fight.  Not Alts because harvesters have to be active in game pretty much all the time to keep the supply coming in...


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Not seeing that Mike... It only takes one trained harvester and x others with higher quality tool, they do not even have to be grouped.   Harvesters often make good scouts, avoidance and awareness skill sets align...   for mother lode harvests have a few of your roving combat group move in to help the main harvester...   then move off to the next fight.  Not Alts because harvesters have to be active in game pretty much all the time to keep the supply coming in...

 

Exactly this.  Since the max reward for the node is done on the final hit the guild or group just need to be coordinated enough to let the harvester get the "killing blow" on the node.


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Exactly this.  Since the max reward for the node is done on the final hit the guild or group just need to be coordinated enough to let the harvester get the "killing blow" on the node.

 

Actually minerals/gems have a chance to proc at 25, 50, 75% damage .... the high end stone or ore procs at the end

so the 'max reward' is stuff you can get solo

 

its the gems and minerals that are the limiters


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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The issue with group dependency of harvesting is time and return. Every other real person not only reduces yield/profit but also is a mega time waster, when by the time things get organized one may need to logoff (complete loss) or could have harvested more solo / withalt. Harvesting should be modeled after the crafter, individual action, collective dependencies.

 

I tend to agree with the points made by Ironmike with some reservations.  The multiple account discussion is probably a realistic discussion, but should probably not be the intended solution (just to be clear on that). 

 

I most agree with Mike's statement above.  It takes extra time to coordinate groups.  How much time varies, but there is almost always some time wasted.  This is, however, usually offset by the added productivity in harvesting. 

 

Not seeing that Mike... It only takes one trained harvester and x others with higher quality tool, they do not even have to be grouped.   Harvesters often make good scouts, avoidance and awareness skill sets align...   for mother lode harvests have a few of your roving combat group move in to help the main harvester...   then move off to the next fight.  Not Alts because harvesters have to be active in game pretty much all the time to keep the supply coming in...

 

The most important criticism I see here from Mike is what I quoted above.  It will take time to get those PvP individuals to come over to help with the motherlode node - hopefully just travel time but it might also include getting out of the prior fight.  In that time, the harvester could move to another group of nodes and begin harvesting, but he or she cannot while waiting for the PvP group.  Boredom and lag time is a huge fun killer in my opinion.

 

If one is willing to admit a time loss when coordinating an activity among a group of people doing the same activity, try it with people who do completely different activities and who only come together a few times each hour.  The travel time alone will become annoying for both groups.

 

Moreover, none of this addresses the underlying concern in the OP.  Why are we artificially gating this exclusive source of some important resources (including the basic building block for any vessel crafting - essential the same function as paper in the rune making process)?  ACE stepped back an re-evaluated the "skills requiring pieces of armor" idea and I see this as a similar idea in need of re-evaluation.  Even if harvesting the motherlode nodes is more difficult solo (hedging on unproductive as I have suggested above), it should still be possible.  Therefore, our discussion should probably be more focused on if there is a reason for this kind of artificial gate and not on ways we can get around it.  I am sure we can all come up with many logistical ways to solve the problem, but I do not think that's the thrust of the OP and I do not think it should be a problem to begin with.

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Not seeing that Mike... It only takes one trained harvester and x others with higher quality tool, they do not even have to be grouped.   Harvesters often make good scouts, avoidance and awareness skill sets align...   for mother lode harvests have a few of your roving combat group move in to help the main harvester...   then move off to the next fight.  Not Alts because harvesters have to be active in game pretty much all the time to keep the supply coming in...

 

In two years after launch, yea that works.

 

To reach the same level of harvesting in ore the four pots give us now, will take 760 days on the ore line.

 

27 days basic harvesting, (including 9 days in the food line so you don't starve)

42 day basic exploration, (not finished, just all the current "harvest" bonus items)

432 days for all the ore lines,

 

Total 501 Days

 

Then 259 days

 

130 days for full vessel, in order to get into leadership,  

129 days to fill out the harvesting lines in leadership.

 

Total 760 days

 

25 months to get what we are essentially getting for free.  Two years to reach the pinnacle of a single profession, with no side lines, no diversions, just pure dedication to a single goal of being the best ore harvester in the game.  

 

So tell me when such a person would have time to train scouting skills exactly?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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