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Death, respawning and you - Official discussion thread


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Most players aren't competitive pvpers btw. 

 

Depends on what you mean by "most," "competitive" and what pool of players you are speaking about.

 

If you are talking about players in general, then no, most are definitely competitive PVPers. MOBA, FPS, RTS, CCG numbers clearly show this.

 

If you mean most players aren't top tier, gaming is life, make a living off tournaments, pro gamers, sure. Most aren't that, nor does CF have anything that caters to that specific crowd to where they would design any aspect to please them.

 

Not sure why such folks would find much satisfaction in winning/losing in a game that is very imbalanced where money/time play as much if not more into outcomes than actual skill.

 

Regardless, I'm still curious who these folks are in particular and how you can speak for them.

 


 

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Here's my 5 cents:

 

On one side we've got a zerg. Say, 20 players. On the other side there is a group of skilled players, say, 5 people. Z = zergs, S = skilleds. Therefore one Z's impact to battle is 1/20 and one S' impact = 1/5. When S kill one Z they are 19/20 and can hold some time while waiting for him to come back from the temple almost not noticing his absence. When Z kill one S they are 4/5 and lose much more power, but still have to wait the same amount of time for him to come back.

If S group is not able to kill Z group players rapidly they will lose.  If S group does kill Z group players rapidly, Z group benefits from easy replenishment if the design allows for easy replenishment of forces.  Z groups use numbers to win, so the ability to replenish those numbers supports their primary tactic.

 

S group can not afford to build around such tactics, because even losing 1 member and waiting for that person to get back to their group severely limits their power. 

 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If S group is not able to kill Z group players rapidly they will lose.  If S group does kill Z group players rapidly, Z group benefits from easy replenishment if the design allows for easy replenishment of forces.  Z groups use numbers to win, so the ability to replenish those numbers supports their primary tactic.

 

S group can not afford to build around such tactics, because even losing 1 member and waiting for that person to get back to their group severely limits their power. 

It's not necessarily about killing. Let's assume that S group is just defending their spot against Z group. If S group kills 1 Z member it doesn't matter for Z group - they can continue attacking as before. But if Z group kills S member S group becomes weaker for a bigger period of time. And Z group has more chance to win during this period. S group is just more vulnerable to such change. You know, there is such factor as luck in any fight, Z group can have a lot of critical hits in a row or whatever, and this new design just pushes the balance further in their favor. You see, it's like before this change Z group had a chance to win against S group like 10% and now it's 20%, because it became less forgiving to S mistakes. Something like that.

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It's not necessarily about killing. Let's assume that S group is just defending their spot against Z group. If S group kills 1 Z member it doesn't matter for Z group - they can continue attacking as before. But if Z group kills S member S group becomes weaker for a bigger period of time. And Z group has more chance to win during this period. S group is just more vulnerable to such change. You know, there is such factor as luck in any fight, Z group can have a lot of critical hits in a row or whatever, and this new design just pushes the balance further in their favor. You see, it's like before this change Z group had a chance to win against S group like 10% and now it's 20%, because it became less forgiving to S mistakes. Something like that.

Yep

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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No offense to anyone in particular, but in a situation where 5 skilled players are fighting 20 zerglings, if you're trading deaths at a 1 : 1 ratio, then the 5 "skilled" players are either not that skilled or the 20 zerglings are likely more skilled than you've presented them as or the 20 zerglings also include a handful of skilled players so it's not 5 S vs 20 Z and is more maybe 5 S vs 3 S+17 Z

 

I see this argument all the time (in multiple games) from people who overestimate their own abilities, where they label themselves as skilled players and everybody else as zerglings when the reality is different. And even if the smaller group is genuinely more skilled, at some point overwhelming numbers will still win e.g. 5 vs 30 if each skilled player can kill 4 enemies before they get overwhelmed and die themselves, you will still run out of numbers first.

 

The fantasy you see so often in the media of a lone master swordsman defeating 500 enemies will only happen if it's staged. In games and in real life, there will come a point where that master swordsman runs out of stamina, gets distracted etc and they will lose.

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No offense to anyone in particular, but in a situation where 5 skilled players are fighting 20 zerglings, if you're trading deaths at a 1 : 1 ratio, then the 5 "skilled" players are either not that skilled or the 20 zerglings are likely more skilled than you've presented them as or the 20 zerglings also include a handful of skilled players so it's not 5 S vs 20 Z and is more maybe 5 S vs 3 S+17 Z

 

I see this argument all the time (in multiple games) from people who overestimate their own abilities, where they label themselves as skilled players and everybody else as zerglings when the reality is different. And even if the smaller group is genuinely more skilled, at some point overwhelming numbers will still win e.g. 5 vs 30 if each skilled player can kill 4 enemies before they get overwhelmed and die themselves, you will still run out of numbers first.

 

The fantasy you see so often in the media of a lone master swordsman defeating 500 enemies will only happen if it's staged. In games and in real life, there will come a point where that master swordsman runs out of stamina, gets distracted etc and they will lose.

This is generally correct, and is also why easily getting back to a battle favors a zerg. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I actually don't mind punishing failure, but it doesn't increase my fun in any way. That is, the degree of enjoyment I get out of winning is in no way determined by how painful my enemies loss is.

So, for me, more punishing mechanics don't equal "more fun". But, as I said, punishing mechanics don't tend to bother me (corpse runes an such). Now things like RNG failures and losing all your crafting materials DOES bother me a lot. But that's a different topic.


Regarding feedback to the article, it all sounds good to me. Seems like a good first iteration that can be modified as issues are uncovered.

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