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Basic Crafting


narsille
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I was hoping to kick off some discussions regarding the basic crafting tree.  From my perspective, the arrangement of the nodes make no sense what-so-ever.

 

First: There doesn't seem to be any logical relationship between the items being crafted and the node chain leading up them.

 

If I want to become a leatherworker then I start by learning a bunch of stuff that makes me craft items quicker.  Conversely, if I want to learn woodworking, I start by getting extra experimentation points.  There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the choices that are being foist on us.

 

Second:  If you inspect the chain of nodes leading up to blacksmithing and the like, each link in the chain provides exactly the same statistic.  As a result, you have a weird saw toothed wave in the rate of speed that that you level.  You start very quickly, then diminishing returns set in and things slow down.  You complete the node and then things are fast again.  If nothing else, why not replace the two tier 1 intermediate nodes with a single Tier 2?  It would take the same total amount of time to complete, but diminishing returns wrt time would be consistent all the way across.

 

Here's an example of a basic crafting layout that I think makes more sense

 

Crafting.png

 

You enter in the Basic Crafting Node in the center (Tier 1 node)

 

Once this node is complete, you can either unlock professions like "Blacksmithing", "Woodworking", and the like OR invest in skills that improve your overall crafting abilities.  Here, I tried to group things into three logical clusters.

 

1.  Skills that impact the quality of the items that you produce

2.  Skills that impact your efficiency in transforming raw materials into finished goods

3.  Abilities that are related to mass production

 

I'm sure that this can be improved upon, however, this scheme feels much more intuitive than what we have today

 

 

 

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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[sNIP]

 

1.  Skills that impact the quality of the items that you produce

2.  Skills that impact your efficiency in transforming raw materials into finished goods

3.  Abilities that are related to mass production

 

I'm sure that this can be improved upon, however, this scheme feels much more intuitive than what we have today

 

I like it. Logical and it does make more sense than what we currently have.

 

Push it over to the suggestion forum?

Edited by Rhast
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100% agree with this. The crafting and harvesting skill trees have bothered me for some time. I like your suggestion and it simplifies it quite a bit. The thing that really irks me about the trees is the fact we have to train in a basic skill tree in the first place. Personally, I would get rid of basic trees completely since they are useless and are just there to take up time, but at least with your template people could choose to train in multiple different crafts without having to wait weeks or months before training something else.

Edited by Mytherceria
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I like this too. Basic crafting tree has no logic atm, imho. And I also don't like the fact that basic crafting tree is only about Basic Crafting recipes (isn't it?). I see no point in upgrading your ability to craft basic items as they are just optional items until you get better. Basic crafting should be focused on improvement crafting as a whole, but less that specific crafting, I think.

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I was hoping to kick off some discussions regarding the basic crafting tree.  From my perspective, the arrangement of the nodes make no sense what-so-ever.

 

First: There doesn't seem to be any logical relationship between the items being crafted and the node chain leading up them.

 

If I want to become a leatherworker then I start by learning a bunch of stuff that makes me craft items quicker.  Conversely, if I want to learn woodworking, I start by getting extra experimentation points.  There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the choices that are being foist on us.

 

Second:  If you inspect the chain of nodes leading up to blacksmithing and the like, each link in the chain provides exactly the same statistic.  As a result, you have a weird saw toothed wave in the rate of speed that that you level.  You start very quickly, then diminishing returns set in and things slow down.  You complete the node and then things are fast again.  If nothing else, why not replace the two tier 1 intermediate nodes with a single Tier 2?  It would take the same total amount of time to complete, but diminishing returns wrt time would be consistent all the way across.

 

Here's an example of a basic crafting layout that I think makes more sense

 

Crafting.png

 

You enter in the Basic Crafting Node in the center (Tier 1 node)

 

Once this node is complete, you can either unlock professions like "Blacksmithing", "Woodworking", and the like OR invest in skills that improve your overall crafting abilities.  Here, I tried to group things into three logical clusters.

 

1.  Skills that impact the quality of the items that you produce

2.  Skills that impact your efficiency in transforming raw materials into finished goods

3.  Abilities that are related to mass production

 

I'm sure that this can be improved upon, however, this scheme feels much more intuitive than what we have today

 

I like where this is going, but I do think that the "Item Quality" line with "Crafting Quality" and "Experimentation points" belong in their respective specialties, not out alone.

 

Experimentation points especially.  Those are the largest factor in item improvement, if they are not within each specialty, what exactly are you putting in those?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Some top level Pillars I tried to follow:

The point of all 3 Basic trees is to teach people how to progress their character. (hence the low tiers for fast training)

The trees are also in bite size chunks not to hit them with massive sticker shock and confusion (ie a Sphere grid PoE style)

Trees start from a single left most node and flow right. (People tend to read from left to right in the Western World)

Players are never given more than 4ish choices at a single junction.

The stats granted in a "basic" tree are useful. (Basic Crafting stats are parent stats to ALL crafting stats at varying ratios. So 10 points in Basic Crafting Experimentation, gets 5 points in EVERY crafting profession. You will want to circle back and get the point available in the basic trees eventually. Apples, CC modifications, and improved crafting anyone?? )

 

 

@narsille I'm not saying yours is bad, but it doesn't follow any of the pillars above. You are also missing the JC, Alchemy, Stonemasonry boxes. (which creates even more choices, especially as I continue to add)

 

Your first point is valid, however I see people coming back to get all the Basic Skills because they offer a huge advantage long term. I could try an experiment with every profession tree off the Assembly line to see how it looks. (Crafting Basics already received some changes this week, you wont see them until the Friday Build after this one)
 

Point 2, valid but the goal was again a teaching one, and we don't want to blow all our stats headroom in single skill nodes. Plus finishing nodes makes people feel like they are progressing. (arguable if your goal is to rush deeper into trees, it all depends on your point of view)

 

Also do you have any repro steps on that bugged Book you crafted over the weekend? We haven't been able to repro it internally.  Material qualities, anything unusual, lag spikes, disconnects?

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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The stats granted in a "basic" tree are useful. (Basic Crafting stats are parent stats to ALL crafting stats at varying ratios. So 10 points in Basic Crafting Experimentation, gets 5 points in EVERY crafting profession. You will want to circle back and get the point available in the basic trees eventually. Apples, CC modifications, and improved crafting anyone?? )

Thanks for this, I didn't know. Is it written in any of the game's tooltips? I didn't log in much this weekend. But on previous tests I haven't noticed any impact on my Blacksmithing Experimentation Points from Basic Crafting skill tree. I had 13 points in Basic Crafting and 9 in Blacksmithing (with first +point skill leveled in Blacksmithing branch).

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Also do you have any repro steps on that bugged Book you crafted over the weekend? We haven't been able to repro it internally.  Material qualities, anything unusual, lag spikes, disconnects?

 

I wish I knew what I did so I could make another 30 or so...  I wasn't recording video or doing anything useful.

 

I am 99% sure that the book was made of nothing but knotwood.

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Thanks for this, I didn't know. Is it written in any of the game's tooltips? I didn't log in much this weekend. But on previous tests I haven't noticed any impact on my Blacksmithing Experimentation Points from Basic Crafting skill tree. I had 13 points in Basic Crafting and 9 in Blacksmithing (with first +point skill leveled in Blacksmithing branch).

I think everyone is getting 8 experimentation points as a base right now for testing purposes, so you may not notice any difference in blacksmithing if you train the basic experimentation points skills. My basic crafting experimentation points are at 10, but based on my skill training, I should only have 2. I have 8 experimentation points in leatherworking, runemaking, necromancy, but I don't have any of those trained. For the professions that haven't been implemented yet, I have 0 points.

 

So, I don't think the basic points are currently set up to add to the advanced professions. I think they turned that off and just gave everyone 8 points as a baseline.

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Some top level Pillars I tried to follow:

 

Hi Thomas

 

Thanks for taking the time for such a thoughtful answers.  I understand that consistency across the UI is a desirable trait.  With that in mind:

 

Take my diagram and strike all of the professions (blacksmithing, etc) from this tree completely.  If a player tries to immediately hop into Blacksmithing, inform them that they (first) need to complete X% of the basic crafting tree.  This maintains your third and fourth pillars.

 

With respect to "bite sized chunks":  I (personally) think that having people do one tier 2 node is more elegant than chaining a pair of T1 nodes.  

 

1.  Total training time to complete the two nodes is identical

2.  You have a less clutter on the screen

3.  The function mapping training time --> skill is much simpler

 

On balance, I would value this more than a false set of completion from checking off a node.  (De gustibus non est disputandum)

 

I think that it would be interesting if there were synergy between crafting and combat skills.  For example, a blacksmith who had skills in using a weapon might be better at crafting such a weapon (especially with experimentation).  A character that wears leather armor, might be better at crafting leather armor.  (Might not be worth the complexity that this would add, however, I think that it would add to the immersive quality of the game)

Edited by narsille

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Agree on your first point entirely. Whilst I understand the need for linear progression I do feel you should not be tied into training one particular line of crafting in order to unlock the next tier line for the profession you actually want to do.

 

For example I would have liked the choice to train experimentation or crafting speed to unlock rune making rather than being bulldozed into crafting assembly instead. 

uGlR0Ph.png

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I think everyone is getting 8 experimentation points as a base right now for testing purposes, so you may not notice any difference in blacksmithing if you train the basic experimentation points skills. My basic crafting experimentation points are at 10, but based on my skill training, I should only have 2. I have 8 experimentation points in leatherworking, runemaking, necromancy, but I don't have any of those trained. For the professions that haven't been implemented yet, I have 0 points.

 

So, I don't think the basic points are currently set up to add to the advanced professions. I think they turned that off and just gave everyone 8 points as a baseline.

Perhaps I was unclear, I will try to explain once more.

1. 8 points is base atm in every craft.

2. I leveled Basic Crafting points - I got 13 in Basic Crafting, still 8 in all other crafts (except for Blacksmithing, read below)

3. I had one skill from Blacksmithing leveled which gives +1 point - I had 9 points in Blacksmithing, 13 in Basic and 8 in other.

4. Now I've got all +points from Blacksmithing leveled and I've got 13 points in Blacksmithing as well.

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I think anything that gets away from the linear trajectory would be great.

 

The mind set of this narrows the ability for a person to choose what and how they want to go.

CfWBSig.png

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I know my problem with the crafting stats are they are listed as basic crafting which made me feel like those didn't benefit any of the advanced trees. I also haven't noticed a change in my success rates on the recipes as I train things that increase success rates.

 

While the stats are very diverse in the attributes trees its not really clear what impact they have on what you are doing.

 

REQT

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Perhaps I was unclear, I will try to explain once more.

1. 8 points is base atm in every craft.

2. I leveled Basic Crafting points - I got 13 in Basic Crafting, still 8 in all other crafts (except for Blacksmithing, read below)

3. I had one skill from Blacksmithing leveled which gives +1 point - I had 9 points in Blacksmithing, 13 in Basic and 8 in other.

4. Now I've got all +points from Blacksmithing leveled and I've got 13 points in Blacksmithing as well.

Right, what I'm saying is that I don't think the Basic Crafting Experimentation Points are adding to your Blacksmithing Experimentation Points at all. It may be the intention for it to work that way in the future, but I think for testing they have disabled that and just given us 8 points as a baseline.

I know my problem with the crafting stats are they are listed as basic crafting which made me feel like those didn't benefit any of the advanced trees. I also haven't noticed a change in my success rates on the recipes as I train things that increase success rates.

 

While the stats are very diverse in the attributes trees its not really clear what impact they have on what you are doing.

Tooltips on each of the paper doll stats would help immensely.

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Right, what I'm saying is that I don't think the Basic Crafting Experimentation Points are adding to your Blacksmithing Experimentation Points at all. It may be the intention for it to work that way in the future, but I think for testing they have disabled that and just given us 8 points as a baseline.

Mr. Blair said here: "Basic Crafting stats are parent stats to ALL crafting stats at varying ratios. So 10 points in Basic Crafting Experimentation, gets 5 points in EVERY crafting profession."

 

I thought it works for exp. points as well.

Edited by sedside
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Some top level Pillars I tried to follow:

The point of all 3 Basic trees is to teach people how to progress their character. (hence the low tiers for fast training)

The trees are also in bite size chunks not to hit them with massive sticker shock and confusion (ie a Sphere grid PoE style)

Trees start from a single left most node and flow right. (People tend to read from left to right in the Western World)

Players are never given more than 4ish choices at a single junction.

The stats granted in a "basic" tree are useful. (Basic Crafting stats are parent stats to ALL crafting stats at varying ratios. So 10 points in Basic Crafting Experimentation, gets 5 points in EVERY crafting profession. You will want to circle back and get the point available in the basic trees eventually. Apples, CC modifications, and improved crafting anyone?? )

 

You're right. The advanced trees are probably fine. I do think the basic trees need work though, since they don't seem to follow your pillar for not creating confusion.

 

What does experimentation have to do with blacksmithing, specifically, or speed and leatherworking, etc?

 

I would like to see the basic skill trees simplified. Maybe basic crafting can cover all basic crafts without the need for the individual basic skills? This would solve the problem of where to put them, as well as ensure that basic gear is plentiful at the start of the campaigns when it is most needed. It will also allow crafters who want to specialize to do so without the unnecessary delay of the current tree. If basic gear is designed primarily to be an introduction to crafting it will probably become obsolete fairly quickly, so I see no reason to prolong that inevitability. Time isn't one of your pillars, so why make us waste so much of it training basic skills?

 

The basic skill tree could still fulfill your pillar of providing a tutorial without being too excessive. You could instead focus on allowing people to choose what "extras" they want to learn (experimentation, speed, assembly, thralls) and once they reach a certain threshold for these skills, can then choose to train in and specialize as a novice of a specific craft.

 

I would also do the same for the basic excavation and harvesting trees. They need to be simplified even more than the crafting one. 

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You're right. The advanced trees are probably fine. I do think the basic trees need work though, since they don't seem to follow your pillar for not creating confusion.

 

What does experimentation have to do with blacksmithing, specifically, or speed and leatherworking, etc?

 

I would like to see the basic skill trees simplified. Maybe basic crafting can cover all basic crafts without the need for the individual basic skills? This would solve the problem of where to put them, as well as ensure that basic gear is plentiful at the start of the campaigns when it is most needed. It will also allow crafters who want to specialize to do so without the unnecessary delay of the current tree. If basic gear is designed primarily to be an introduction to crafting it will probably become obsolete fairly quickly, so I see no reason to prolong that inevitability. Time isn't one of your pillars, so why make us waste so much of it training basic skills?

 

The basic skill tree could still fulfill your pillar of providing a tutorial without being too excessive. You could instead focus on allowing people to choose what "extras" they want to learn (experimentation, speed, assembly, thralls) and once they reach a certain threshold for these skills, can then choose to train in and specialize as a novice of a specific craft.

 

I would also do the same for the basic excavation and harvesting trees. They need to be simplified even more than the crafting one. 

 

I think this is the point that a lot of us potential crafters don't like about the current layout of the basic crafting tree. The tree 'railroads' you into having to learn preset skills just to access the basic skill sets of a particular crafting type

 

I for one would prefer that the basic skill sets would unlock after training any three of the assembly, speed or experimentation lines. For example I could train 1 each of assembly, speed and experimentation or 2 in assembly and 1 in experimentation or just do 3 in any line to unlock ALL of the basic crafting skills (runemaking, woodwork, blacksmithing, etc)

 

This method would give crafters more choice in what they wished to train in whilst still teaching them the basics of crafting and skill trees at the same time. 

 

As it currently stands the basic crafting skill tree has no real logic towards teaching players the fundamentals of crafting or skill trees and is in fact rather misleading by giving people the impression that, for example, crafting assembly is the most important aspect of rune making as this is the skill line that unlocks the basic rune making skill

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Maybe it's not for this topic, but I had a suggestion for skill trees as well to make them a little bit more "PoE-like". In PoE there are thematically connected clusters, which you are not obliged to learn as they are dead-end secondary branches. It's like you move to, say, Blacksmithing through 2-3 literally basic nodes, but some of this nodes give you an opportunity to level crafting speed or experimentation or whatever for 3-4 more nodes. I think, such structure would be nice for Crowfall.

Edited by sedside
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