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Grey advanced weapons on par with Blue weapons?


Kith
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I'd love to share a screenshot, but I had a take bug and I'm done for the day.

 

Rapiers:

Blue weapon damage range:  736-995

Grey weapon damage range:  680-960

 

Time invested in gathering blue mats:  idk, 2-3 hours of pooled guild time, possibly as much as 8 man-hours.

Time invested in gathering slag and knotwood in Sanctuary:  10 minutes solo (one set of harvesting pots, with some leftovers)

 

Rough damage difference: 865.5 average vs 820, just over a 5% difference for three grades of difference (gray, white, green, blue)

 

 

Is this functioning as intended?

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Is this without experimentation?

 

If you did experiment, how did the experimentation results compare between the weapons?

 

A blue weapon gets a small boost simply for being blue, but the real potential comes from the ability to spend more experiment points. You would see a fairly significant difference with "amazing" experimentation rolls.

Edited by Jah

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Is this without experimentation?

 

If you did experiment, how did the experimentation results compare between the weapons?

Also don't forget mats used/ore combinations.

Experimentation is a big one though, as I've had ~30% increases on a piece by blowing all my points on one stat. Doing that over the course of building the weapon should yield more than just 5% difference

231e101d88.jpg

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Flattened power curve is a design goal for CF. I'm sure the exact numbers will get adjusted as testing goes on.

 

In the ideal situation, you get an Amazing Success using the blue resources, make a blueprint, then outfit a bunch of people in your guild with +x% advantage. If you can't get enough of those blue resources, you might be better off experimenting on white instead.

 

What I like about this type of system is the continual need to calculate:

 - cost to create vs

 - risk to lose vs

 - advantage gained 

 

In a gear progression game like WoW, you never even have to think about all these variables. You have a straight linear upgrade to the next tier item (seems so boring to me).

tiPrpwh.png

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I think people are stuck on a color being indicative of quality on a finished product. Currently you can end up with a grey weapon that used mostly rare mats and vice versa. An amazing rolled green is far better than mediocre rolled blue final product. The color scheme is just a poor implementation of an industry standard. I'm all for removing the color scheme on final builds.

 

Colored text is a way of rewarding entitled players. I'd rather compare stats and never hear the phrase, "is that a legendary weapon?"

Edited by facerip
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It's all about the full pip amazing result.

 

Way more important than the color of the item.

 

I agree with that and have seen green weapons with better stats than purple weapons before because of experimentation results. However the OP said he made a grey weapon entirely out of slag. Slag, which can be obtained from EKs. That would have given him what, 2 pips to experiment on damage? Versus how many for a blue, 6 was it? If the damage difference between a weapon you can craft in EK and one you need to obtain in mid tier CWs (not even low ones) is 30-50 damage on average, I see that as a problem. As much as I'm all for a flattened curve in gear progression, the entire drive for the game revolves around fighting for these higher tier resources in CWs. They need to be somewhat desirable. But like Jah, I would also be curious to see the experimentation results on both. I might just test this myself this weekend. 

 

 

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<TLDR>

 

1. This is a feature not a bug

2. The primary issue is that folks are constrained by number of experimentation points, not experimentation slots

3. This should all change once specialized crafters emerge in the campaigns

4. Once we have factories, it all changes once again

 

</TLDR>

 

<BORING THEORYCRAFT>

 

I generated the following chart a couple back, so it might be out of date, but this does a good job illustrating the relationship between experimentation points, crafting success, and product statistics.  (Numbers were generated crafting iron bars.  I think that failures might be working differently now)

 

Iron.png

 

The key issues to focus on

 

1. The quality of your raw materials gates the number of experimentation points that you can spent.  (Grey gets you two slots, Green three, Blue gets you four)

2. Item stats (typically) go up as you move up and to the right.  A "good" success with three experimentation points is worth more than a moderate success with four experimentation points.

3. The relationship between crafting success and item statistics appears be governed by a polynomial

 

Personally, all this makes sense to me.  In particular, the devs want low quality items to continue to hold value.  Which probably explains why an amazing success grey is better than a good success blue.

 

Next:  From what I can tell, how well you roll for your final item matters a lot more than the sum of the stats of the components that you are using.  I am guessing that the same basic relationship applies here:  An amazing success with white/grey quality items will be slightly better than a Good success with blue.

 

There's a few different points that further confound all this

 

1.  I have seen statements if you craft items with all purple or all blue mats you get additional bonuses

2.  In many cases - even running full crafting potions - you're going to get gated by the number of experimentation points that you have available rather than the number of experimentation slots that you have

3.  Based on my experience, if you mix and match the quality of raw materials if feels like you drag the quality of the good stuff down more than you bring the bad stuff up.  <Running actual experiments here would be good>

 

What conclusions do I draw from all this?

 

1.  For now, quantity trumps quality.  Its better to craft as many pieces as possible hoping for a really good role on final assembly rather than focusing on making a perfect all purple or or all blue

 

2.  I personally stockpile all of my purple and blue raw mats.  Every once and a while I stockpile enough to make an optimized piece of advanced armor.  When I do so, I try to make this piece "perfect" using nothing but blues (and necessary green stone and wood).  I also make sure to use the "right" mats.  Book chapters that give fire damage.  Maces with + to crushing and/or attack power.  (You want to have recipes for what mats go into a well designed piece or armor or weapon)

 

One concern:  The single best piece that I ever crafted was a basic book that did 1900 --> 2600 damage.  I'm secretly wondering whether the best option might be to craft 100 or so basic books and hoping to get really lucky again...

 

</BORING THEORYCRAFT>

Edited by narsille

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Slag Weapon parts were 52-53 (blade) and 52-52 (hilt)  (for those who aren't testing, zero successes give 50 min damage - 50 max damage, and a good success and above gives a +1; there are some fractions, a great and an amazing success together give a +3), I think I got a moderate success and a great success on the damage portion during the final combine.  All in all, pretty good rolls.  I have no recollection of the rolls for the blue- but I did put as many points as possible in damage.

 

However, this seems hardly relevant!  Blues have far more slots for experimentation.

 

 

It seems like experimentation doesn't have a meaningful impact on weapon design.  Up next, no experimentation on a slag weapon, vs good rolls on slag weapons.  Will have video and screen shots.

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Up next, no experimentation on a slag weapon, vs good rolls on slag weapons.  Will have video and screen shots.

 

Great!

 

Please make sure to do this 50 times so we have a reliable sample to work with

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Great!

 

Please make sure to do this 50 times so we have a reliable sample to work with

 

 

Make me some metal bars made of slag.  About 100 will do.

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Make me some metal bars made of slag.  About 100 will do.

 

I am merely pointing out that the singular of data is "anecdote"

Creating a video of a one off crafting event doesn't have explanatory power.

 

This should not be interpreted as my volunteering to run your experiments (I have enough on my plate as is)

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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I have no recollection of the rolls for the blue- but I did put as many points as possible in damage.

 

However, this seems hardly relevant!  Blues have far more slots for experimentation.

The actual rolls are incredibly relevant. It doesn't matter how many points you have if they are all bad rolls. Did you put all the pips into damage at the same time? One at a time?

 

You can get damage way over the ~900's your two example weapons have.

 

5Sv6gwQ.png

 

o3cNhHB.png

 

I am surprised that your slag weapon is as good as it is, though. I'm going to need to try making some.

Edited by Jah

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One concern:  The single best piece that I ever crafted was a basic book that did 1900 --> 2600 damage.  I'm secretly wondering whether the best option might be to craft 100 or so basic books and hoping to get really lucky again...

That is clearly a bug. If you get "lucky" with that again, I hope you can help ACE to figure out how to reproduce the bug and fix it.

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That is clearly a bug. If you get "lucky" with that again, I hope you can help ACE to figure out how to reproduce the bug and fix it.

 

Yeah, I reported it to them...

 

And it went away.  Sigh

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Yeah, I reported it to them...

 

And it went away.  Sigh

 

Any clue how it happened? Lag spike? Unusual materials used? Stack bug?

 

I noticed it was almost exactly 7x the normal damage and durability which made me wonder if it was essentially 7 weapons smooshed into one.

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I agree with that and have seen green weapons with better stats than purple weapons before because of experimentation results. However the OP said he made a grey weapon entirely out of slag. Slag, which can be obtained from EKs. That would have given him what, 2 pips to experiment on damage? Versus how many for a blue, 6 was it? If the damage difference between a weapon you can craft in EK and one you need to obtain in mid tier CWs (not even low ones) is 30-50 damage on average, I see that as a problem. As much as I'm all for a flattened curve in gear progression, the entire drive for the game revolves around fighting for these higher tier resources in CWs. They need to be somewhat desirable. But like Jah, I would also be curious to see the experimentation results on both. I might just test this myself this weekend. 

 

Correct. Which is the reason I posted that it's the "full pip amazing" that matters.

 

Gotta get full pips to damage for your experimentation points for sure. After that (which is fairly easy) experimentation is king right now.

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<BORING THEORYCRAFT>

It's not boring at all, please bring some more!  :)

 

Great!

 

Please make sure to do this 50 times so we have a reliable sample to work with

Did I miss something, or do the base damage rolls (without experimenting at all) of the same quality items differ on different crafts? :o

Edited by sedside
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