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MiracleMax

Meet the New Knight - Official Discussion Thread

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Good post Duren. There's a couple things that I want to add.

 

I would like to see Oath of Will done away with completely and the stamina regeneration (or whatever resource it gets changed to) added to another ability that we actually use. Add it to Shield Bash or something. Having an ability that does nothing but regenerate combat resource is a complete waste. The only other archetype that has a similar ability is the Confessor with Fervor, but they never, ever have to use it. Meanwhile, knights have to use Oath of Will every single time it is up, and still run out of stamina.

 

If Block is going to remain such a high cost ability, then give knights something other than Block as a defense. The Templar has heals in addition to Parry. The Myrmidon has complete freedom of movement and attack while in Berserk. Meanwhile, the knight can't move or attack while blocking, and can't defend while moving or attacking. The knight just doesn't feel like a tank anymore.

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Just to point out how out of whack the stam costs are:  I have 225-250ish stam (that's a guess - based on how far the bar drops on a 25sta cost power, since you don't show stam numbers anywhere) with all the stam nodes trained.  It costs 83 stam to land my bleed attack (4-E-E).   75 stam to land my knockdown (4-4-4).  When you combine that with blocking and sprinting, you can see why the knight runs out of stam so very quickly in a group fight.   Compared to the resource costs of other classes, the knight is at an extreme disadvantage even without considering block and movement each use the same resource pool as attacks.

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I really felt the stamina pain fighting a confessor during the last snap test.  I blocked the Confessors opening combo which took 90% of my stamina.  Used my hook ability to pull the confessor to melee range. Then found I had zero stamina for other abilities.  After a few melee attacks and the confessor running away to max distance I was unable to close any distance and got kited to oblivion.  I did only have basic gear equipped but I have all the regen skills trained on the knight tree but it didn't feel like the skills did much to help me out in this encounter.

 

Hopefully the discipline system will yield better results.


   Official Moderator of the Unofficial Crowfall Discord!  Come join the discussion @ https://discord.me/crowfall

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well if we are doing the double posting from the other stamina knight thread heres my thoughts

 


"No other archetype suffers that kind of resource starvation"

*Cough* As a side note I would also argue that the Druid essence is a flawed experiment with regards effectiveness, mechanical feel and game play enjoyability.
 
And the ranger's arrow costs in general and especially for powers such as rapid fire and barrage do not strike the right balance at all between short term combat management versus long term campaign resource management

-
 
Templar's pips are a far more elegant solution that puts resource management and spending directly in the hands of the player in an enjoyable capacity
 
Myrmidon's fury has a similar function and with correct self buff management is largely irrelevant for infinite power spamming.

-

"I'd implement a second resource again"
 
they should of used the Ranger's energy mechanic and adapted it to Knight in some capacity around block/taking damage.

-

Also now they have given the Templar direct support mechanics via healing (despite previously making statements that they didn't want to blur tank and support too much with regards knight possibilities...) they really need to design the knight around generating temporary barriers for both himself AND his group for him to be viable, more interesting to play and to be of any use against competent opponents.

-
 
side note - RIP Templar's tank: dodge...  (what is it now tank: healing/health, tank: support?)

-

As i've also argued before other effects like the Ranger's access to weapon break debuffs (enemy does -20% less damage) along with suppression (6 second power/basic attack silence) are far more useful group tanking effects than just another stun...(they also used to have a spammable low coodlown self barrier when enchants worked in SP!)

-

i just dont understand why ACE removed the #3 6 second cooldown self 20% stamina restore on hit element when they implemented the stamina knight - this would of literally been the only way it would of been viable or enjoyable to play in its current form

-

The skill trees still have many pointless mana nodes and are very poorly designed, useless and uninteresting effects.

Resource restoring effects from legio/druid are now literally worthless - the knight was the only one that needed it from a very very small number of classes it even works on...
 
The templar even starts with the same base HP as the knight - 65k - yet has about 15k health to gain in the skill trains (while the knight has about ~4k). My templar on the first test already managed to get ~184k hp with self buffs. A trained and geared templar might even break 200k....
-

block "supposedly protects people directly behind the knight from attack" it literally never did - the tooltip is an outright lie that i directly tested, called Todd out on and got confirmation on....

-
 
literally ever knight power is just a worse version of something else still
 
Passive hp regen at 20% - given the inflation in spike damage - this has generally been and is even more worthless now. Templar's faith at 35% temporary +hp and potential to be literally unkillable for up to 30 seconds and getting a free holy warrior literally better in all respects.
 

#1 charge - no control. Templar literally better distance and stun tool. Myrm better distance and disruption tool. Legio better interupt tool.
 
#2 pip bash - the anti movement effect is literally just a poor version of a suppression or root but with less power. The target will just sprint away from you. You can't! Meh damage.
 
#3 > 3 stun 20 second cooldown stun....compare that to the Myrm's 10 second stun. Removed the stamina restore from first part...
 
#4 kd/bleed combo. Long costly slow combo - the KD has a 30 second cooldown compared to all other KD powers with 20 instead. Basically misses most targets that arent already CC'd...Meh bleed and other parts of the combo. (better than champion rend though at this point because it is AoE and doesnt root motion and literally throw your across the map with bugs..) Generally stacking moderate bleeds better than severe these days though.
 
#5 barrier/resource Pointless slow cast, poor barrier, poor and clunky restore
 
#6 chain pull. Terrible - literally worse version of Myrm netpull.
 
#7 Meh...actually your only decent block at the moment....compare to myrm channel auto crit damage though....!
 
#left click snare. Having an unavoidable CC effect on an auto attack is actually really bad. Firstly its a very short duration - and hitting yout target is just building their movement CC immunity (which could of been used on a root instead!). Also your chain pull shares the same immunity set - so pulling, the chain daze and then auto attacking quickly builds their immunity.
 
#right click block. Neuted. Can't tank, can't do anything with the damage bonus. Parry and counterattack literally better and more interesting in every capacity. And I assume holy damage will chop through the laughable new mitigation value damage like butter for the few hits it holds up?
 
#c Useless...has the potential to be cool unique effect for wombo combos...but not in this form of combat / mobility state...see general physics powers problems and mobility inflation...

-

"I wouldn't be surprised if certain archetypes got more discipline slots than others."
 
I wouldnt be surprised if they take this approach either - but it doesn't help the problems at all.

(And limiting choice by base power of archetypes seems like a very poor means of addressing the discrepancies / and limiting gameplay options)
Edited by Tinnis

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March 03 Edit:

This week, Noble Blood doesn't cost any stam at all (although the tooltip still says it costs 22).  However, I'm not sure it's doing dmg (it might have done 2000dmg in my video, hard to tell because if it did, it did so after a 2-3 second delay), and doesn't provide a barrier at all (I'd heard it provided a barrier but didn't show it.  So I cast it and let a hellcat hit me.  My health decreased the normal amount).  Noble Blood is on a 16s cooldown.

Further, Oath of Will now appears to restore about 100stam over 3 seconds, which is much better than the 36stam the tooltip lists.    I really don't like having to interrupt the attack stream for this noble blood / oath of will combo every 16 seconds because it really punishes our already poor ability to deal damage.  But it does help with the resource problem somewhat (not enough - please just have LMB hits regen stam if you're going to keep the single resource).

Block still drains about 12stam/sec, which is too much, and 2k hits (normal dmg from hellcats) drain about 40-50 stam.  Again, that's too much.

Pursuit has a 1.5s pause at the end of it that makes it less than useful for actual pursuit.  It's still a decent charge (though I wish it would go back to being press and hold, release when you want to stun what's in front of you), but it's not good for actual pursuits because the pause at the end adds too big a delay.

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18 hours ago, durenthal said:

Pursuit has a 1.5s pause at the end of it that makes it less than useful for actual pursuit.  It's still a decent charge (though I wish it would go back to being press and hold, release when you want to stun what's in front of you), but it's not good for actual pursuits because the pause at the end adds too big a delay.

I imagine they plan to go back to the old version at some point, but they have to get the tech working first. The Templar's leap is way better in either case.

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Played knight almost exclusively this weekend, but with the lag, it wasn't ideal testing circumstances. I can't tell if any subtle changes were made this week, but blocking small attacks didn't seem to drain as much stamina as last week.  I still ran out of stam at inopportune times on multiple occasions, but I'm getting more used to the stamina-only system now, and making adjustments to make it work.  Here are two gameplay videos from the weekend - Saturday video - Sunday video - showing some of the fights I got into.  I didn't lose any 1v1's this weekend, and had only one death total (it's in the first video), but I didn't fight a lot with the nasty lag.

I am still concerned that the knight uses his combat resource for harvesting and sprinting - that's a pretty big drawback, and there doesn't seem to be a benefit to balance it, really.  Templar is still the dominant tank, even with its DL nerf, due to the parry/knockdown/12K hit on no cooldown, and the 35s immortality power.  Myrm is in a terrible place due to the berserk duration nerf, but if that gets fixed, Myrm will be quite good again too.

The shield slam ability (on 7 now) seems to have had its damage nerfed quite heavily when you added to the knockback to it.  It's a guaranteed crit when fully charged, but it's only hitting for 4K fully charged.  That's not worth it, frankly, for a power with a long casting time.  It used to hit for 8K+, consistently.

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I did a test this weekend using the Myrmidon. I ran down both my fury and my stamina and then compared the rate at which they regenerated. Fury regenerated faster, but it wasn't by a huge amount. Regardless, the Myrmidon only needs fury for his attacks and has extra regeneration built into his #2 combo, rather than tacked on as a completely separate ability. Forcing the knight to use stamina for everything makes zero sense.

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One more thing for this week - the Knight skill tree is underwhelming at best, still.   It has fewer skills than any other AT's skill tree, and smaller gains than other AT's get.  It has two full skill nodes utterly wasted on faster mounted travel.  WTF?   Templar and Myrm both get an "increased healing taken" skill.  They get more stat modifiers, and significantly greater amounts modified.  Knight doesn't need to clone their skill trees, but it does need some love in this area, too.

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hm they changed someting or maybe the players knowing now how to play with the new style ... :)

Edited by DravoiX

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11 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

hm they changed someting or maybe the players knowing now how to play with the new style ... :)

Yea, I think the criticisms of the class were very premature, most of the players that claimed they were knight experts still had a lot I don't think they understood about the class.  Even now you can't truly begin to see it's potential because we don't have true fixed point objective play and a healthy playerbase yet. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 minute ago, coolwaters said:

Arkade, Duren, Tark and several others have always been highly proficient with the AT.

It's the changes.

Which one ?


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4 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

Which one ?

I'm sure one of them will pop in and specifically address that. I don't know as I don't play Knight. More than 1 change I suspect.

I do run from them in group fights, however, and the same Knights who have always been an afterthought are now able to pressure a squishie fairly well. Could be the stam changes, but I suspect something with their CC was addressed and made to work better. We have run at least a dozen scrims over the past week with Knights and the changes in the level of pressure are clear to me.

The is no question that Knights are stronger as an AT now than they have been in the past, perhaps ever. That doesn't mean they don't need a small additional bump.

Edited by coolwaters

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1 hour ago, durenthal said:

One more thing for this week - the Knight skill tree is underwhelming at best, still.   It has fewer skills than any other AT's skill tree, and smaller gains than other AT's get.  It has two full skill nodes utterly wasted on faster mounted travel.  WTF?   Templar and Myrm both get an "increased healing taken" skill.  They get more stat modifiers, and significantly greater amounts modified.  Knight doesn't need to clone their skill trees, but it does need some love in this area, too.

at least there is just one skill node which increases onmounted movement, the other skill "chivalry" now increases attack power and sprint modifier...

the only thing a knight has to fear these days is a serverlag, otherwise he is a solid AT with a solid set of skills:

u can use the shout before u go into fight for the dmg absorbing shield...(i will be ready agains when u need it)

the only AT which is able to damaging you without being in your own fightzone is the ranger...close the gap, use block for the one big dmg shot incoming.(or 2-3 if you are unlucky and the ranger is named soulreaver xD)

against confessor, your hook has the same range as all abilities of the confessor, so if she´s trying to stun u get out of range or block + hook...(if you can land the 3 part stun  chain afterwards - fight is over...)

vs templar: let them engage you and counter it with shield slam: 1: to block the stun..then dmg, 2: if the templar get in parrystance ..just hold on the button and change your direction so the parry drain all pips from the templar ...fight is near the end ^^

vs the rat: just keep up your shoutshield and be ready to block the initial dmg from the freaky out of dust wildwestshow till the point you know the direction of the hamster...then put him on your sword/mace

vs champion: rage nerf make these fights rare..-.- look at his abilities...the important one is the stomp on the ground...if he is far a away ..hold the distance for about 6 sec...so the REND or the SUPPRESS goes on CD...if he is close to u make your short stun ability or if rend is cleary on CD block and kill him...

vs druid: hook,charge + stun chain + the important shield bash..over..

vs legionaire: stunlock and circelfight with short breaks the regenerate stamina then charging in again..

vs myrmidon: block the net then make your own engage, kill him

vs knight: individuell fights, changing in short terms from aggressiv play into defensiv...

in group fight i rather be a fighter than a "tank", going for the confessors and rangers...if i get them, they should die or the healer have to get them up instead the group..

for being the target by multiple enemies do not use the RMB block- make shieldslam and get time for charging out of the danger zone..

all this view are very variable cause the skill of your enemies ( and the big ones are already known here xD)

again : the knight is a very solid  but very unpopular AT (for no technical reason)

this is my point of view to the situation of the knight...out of stamina can be a problem and is mostly solved with just blocking the right attacks(heavy hitters and stuns ) on point , shout on CD, get behind enemy ,LMB him or go out of range (except it is soulreaver.. again... xD)

 

10 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

I'm sure one of them will pop in and specifically address that. I don't know as I don't play Knight.

I do run from them in group fights, however, and the same Knights who have always been an afterthought are now able to pressure a squishie fairly well. Could be the stam changes, but I suspect something with their CC was addressed and made to work better. We have run at least a dozen scrims over the past week with Knights and the changes are clear to me.

The is no question that Knights are stronger as an AT now than they have been in the past, perhaps ever. That doesn't mean they don't need a small additional bump.

agree,

but it wasnt the stamina thing,

before this change knights were even stronger - stamina + mana + block 90% incoming dmg..

and also most of the other AT too...(dont forget that)

=P

...and of course..now you can control your charge =P instead just launching forward

PS:

I am no knight expert, just a knight player ,touché!

Edited by NchDu

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A lot of the knights that people think are good simply because they play the class primarily generally had the shortcoming of not using their spells efficiently and spamming too much and sta-starving themselves.

As people play a bit more and testing opens up to better players they are slowly learning to use their abilities more efficiently instead of just button mashing. 

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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9 minutes ago, NchDu said:

at least there is just one skill node which increases onmounted movement, the other skill "chivalry" now increases attack power and sprint modifier...

the only thing a knight has to fear these days is a serverlag, otherwise he is a solid AT with a solid set of skills:

u can use the shout before u go into fight for the dmg absorbing shield...(i will be ready agains when u need it)

the only AT which is able to damaging you without being in your own fightzone is the ranger...close the gap, use block for the one big dmg shot incoming.(or 2-3 if you are unlucky and the ranger is named soulreaver xD)

against confessor, your hook has the same range as all abilities of the confessor, so if she´s trying to stun u get out of range or block + hook...(if you can land the 3 part stun  chain afterwards - fight is over...)

vs templar: let them engage you and counter it with shield slam: 1: to block the stun..then dmg, 2: if the templar get in parrystance ..just hold on the button and change your direction so the parry drain all pips from the templar ...fight is near the end ^^

vs the rat: just keep up your shoutshield and be ready to block the initial dmg from the freaky out of dust wildwestshow till the point you know the direction of the hamster...then put him on your sword/mace

vs champion: rage nerf make these fights rare..-.- look at his abilities...the important one is the stomp on the ground...if he is far a away ..hold the distance for about 6 sec...so the REND or the SUPPRESS goes on CD...if he is close to u make your short stun ability or if rend is cleary on CD block and kill him...

vs druid: hook,charge + stun chain + the important shield bash..over..

vs legionaire: stunlock and circelfight with short breaks the regenerate stamina then charging in again..

vs myrmidon: block the net then make your own engage, kill him

vs knight: individuell fights, changing in short terms from aggressiv play into defensiv...

in group fight i rather be a fighter than a "tank", going for the confessors and rangers...if i get them, they should die or the healer have to get them up instead the group..

for being the target by multiple enemies do not use the RMB block- make shieldslam and get time for charging out of the danger zone..

all this view are very variable cause the skill of your enemies ( and the big ones are already known here xD)

again : the knight is a very solid  but very unpopular AT (for no technical reason)

this is my point of view to the situation of the knight...out of stamina can be a problem and is mostly solved with just blocking the right attacks(heavy hitters and stuns ) on point , shout on CD, get behind enemy ,LMB him or go out of range (except it is soulreaver.. again... xD)

 

agree,

but it wasnt the stamina thing,

before this change knights were even stronger - stamina + mana + block 90% incoming dmg..

and also most of the other AT too...(dont forget that)

=P

...and of course..now you can control your charge =P instead just launching forward

PS:

I am no knight expert, just a knight player ,touché!

Can't believe I forgot perhaps the best Knight I've fought.

There's the explanation I'd rely on. Combo of changes to Knight and nerfs to other ATs.

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