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Crowfall's Combat System is Flawed


Anthrage
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It's far too late now for Crowfall combat (in regards to abilties/chain combos) to really change all that much. But I've gotta be honest...a mix of the Camelot Unchained ability system and the GW2 combo field system would have made combat in Crowfall super diverse and very complex in a simple way. 

 

But with what we have now, I really would've liked to have more input over what abilities I bring with my AT, rather than just 6 abilities and now an Overwatchish ultimate ability that is extremely unbalanced between classes. Maybe down the road we will get more abilities per AT and have that chance to pick and choose which abilities we bring, like a load out sort of idea, which I think would go a long way in making combat more interesting and complex

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It's far too late now for Crowfall combat (in regards to abilties/chain combos) to really change all that much. But I've gotta be honest...a mix of the Camelot Unchained ability system and the GW2 combo field system would have made combat in Crowfall super diverse and very complex in a simple way. 

 

But with what we have now, I really would've liked to have more input over what abilities I bring with my AT, rather than just 6 abilities and now an Overwatchish ultimate ability that is extremely unbalanced between classes. Maybe down the road we will get more abilities per AT and have that chance to pick and choose which abilities we bring, like a load out sort of idea, which I think would go a long way in making combat more interesting and complex

Eventually, there will be more skills and the ability to switch which skills are on our power bar. They've 100% confirmed that.

 

What I'd like to see is the combos separated into unique skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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... I am a fairly new crow, and never played the Hunger Dome- or Siege Perilous-tests, where combat seems to happen more often than I experience it in the Big World-rounds, so my experience in CF combat is actually limited.

But I already begin to feel like there is something missing - mostly the choices I have available when fighting: most fights result in "working through rotations" rather than reacting to the combat flow (if anyone plays Assassins Creed or Prince of Persia Warrior Within you may know what I try to express).

 

What I like is that in some cases I actually have choices, how my chain should branch out (using skill 2 again or skill E instead for example). But right now even that is kind of limited due to effectivity.

 

But that is only a balance problem, so hopefully we get more skills to choose from (like building a deck of cards in MtG or similar card games) and being able to use more branched chains instead of only simple effective rotations - so that combat will have to be a game of decisions and counterplay instead of just using muscle memory (regardless of opponent) till we suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome :/

Edited by lichtqu4nt
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 ^

 

This, so much this.

 

And you can tell this is the direction they are stubbornly trying to maintain.

 

The new soul power is so much a combo action game cheese it makes me extremely sad.

They've wanted to build combo and action combat pretty much from the start. I mean its been reticle Aim since day one and shortly after they went with the combo(chain) system. So not sure why when they continue that design philosophy its such a surprise or disappointment. If you didn't like the combat style before then chances are you never will, there likely isn't going to be some ray of sunshine through the clouds moment, the combat is what it is and what it will be.

 

and to clarify (because some find it fun to twist words), I'm not saying the combat is great, the best, or even the worst and terrible, I'm only speaking to the style of combat being made in the game.

Edited by pang
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They've wanted to build combo and action combat pretty much from the start. 

 

That is not the case based on very early conversations with Todd. I think the combat detail was an afterthought at the time he initially came up with this game idea, frankly. 

 

I can say that "action combat" was not even mentioned when I discussed this game with him back in 2014, in fairly good detail.

Edited by coolwaters
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Eventually, there will be more skills and the ability to switch which skills are on our power bar. They've 100% confirmed that.

 

What I'd like to see is the combos separated into unique skills.

 

I agree heavily with the bolded part. Really anything to make the ATs less like playing Halo and more like I actually built a character that is different from the one to my left and right.

 

My fear is that every AT will (certainly does atm) essentially play the same, save gear. 5% more crit .... for everyone after 6 months. whoooptedoo. I'm unique.

 

I don't think they will even add that many new abilities. They will rehash existing skills and call them disciplines and you'll get 3 or 4 of those.

Edited by coolwaters
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That is not the case based on very early conversations with Todd. I think the combat detail was an afterthought at the time he initially came up with this game idea, frankly. 

 

I can say that "action combat" was not even mentioned when I discussed this game with him back in 2014, in fairly good detail.

When talking about the combat and comparing in to other games, they always mentioned games that had action combat and combo/chain systems. Besides main point was that this has been the style of the combat for a while now and they are clearly locked into it so again no one should be surprised when they introduce systems and mechanics that fall in line with the same style concepts they've been working with since we first saw this combat.

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I agree heavily with the bolded part. Really anything to make the ATs less like playing Halo and more like I actually built a character that is different from the one to my left and right.

 

My fear is that every AT will (certainly does atm) essentially play the same, save gear. 5% more crit .... for everyone after 6 months. whoooptedoo. I'm unique.

 

I don't think they will even add that many new abilities. They will rehash existing skills and call them disciplines and you'll get 3 or 4 of those.

 

I'm afraid I agree with your last point coolwaters. Getting rehashed skills with an already relatively small ability pool won't add much. 

 

I really really love when games allow you to pick from a wide variety of unique skills, but the direction Crowfall is going, I don't see that aspect of interesting combat. And I personally think they have so much potential in terms of character building with skills, never played Shadowbane but I know the character building was insane in that game, and it's sad personally for me to only see 6 base skills for AT's. When I'd love to see 15-20 per AT and be able to really choose your combo's rather than pre-set profiles. 

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I agree heavily with the bolded part. Really anything to make the ATs less like playing Halo and more like I actually built a character that is different from the one to my left and right.

 

My fear is that every AT will (certainly does atm) essentially play the same, save gear. 5% more crit .... for everyone after 6 months. whoooptedoo. I'm unique.

 

I don't think they will even add that many new abilities. They will rehash existing skills and call them disciplines and you'll get 3 or 4 of those.

 

Anyone that has a brain in their head will just grab the most potent heal or self-heal discipline (assuming they don't already have some sort of heal, and even then), so that's one ability spot gone.

 

In reality we'll only have 3 ability slots.

Edited by helix
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I don't think they will even add that many new abilities. They will rehash existing skills and call them disciplines and you'll get 3 or 4 of those.

It's really a shame too, because there are so many cool skills out there they could use.  Ideas that are already tried and true and would enhance the flavor of the game.

lUvvzPy.png

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It's really a shame too, because there are so many cool skills out there they could use.  Ideas that are already tried and true and would enhance the flavor of the game.

 

From a developmental and financial stand point it makes a lot of sense tho. Art is expensive as hell, so why not recycle assets you already have? From a player / customer perspective this is extremely lame, but they gotta do what they gotta do. Hopefully CF is successful and they can hire dozens of more developers / artists and turn out new assets.

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Anyone that has a brain in their head will just grab the most potent heal or self-heal discipline (assuming they don't already have some sort of heal, and even then), so that's one ability spot gone.

 

In reality we'll only have 3 ability slots.

 

In the discipline vid they put out a few months ago there was a discipline that gave access to the legio C so...

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Anyone that has a brain in their head will just grab the most potent heal or self-heal discipline (assuming they don't already have some sort of heal, and even then), so that's one ability spot gone.

 

In reality we'll only have 3 ability slots.

That's another area that SB got right, not all discipline runes were available for all classes.  They need to limit what discs are available to what ATs, for instance no heals available to tank ATs (Templar, Knight, Myrm), maybe only the werebear is available to tanks.  Those are the types of decisions we need in the game, where players are limited in choices of discs by the AT group.

lUvvzPy.png

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From a developmental and financial stand point it makes a lot of sense tho. Art is expensive as hell, so why not recycle assets you already have? From a player / customer perspective this is extremely lame, but they gotta do what they gotta do. Hopefully CF is successful and they can hire dozens of more developers / artists and turn out new assets.

That's why you put in place holder art.  It's not that difficult to have a default spell/skill that is cast like the confessor's LMB, but it is for each of the elements.  Then add an explosion effect on impact for the cold version, but the cold version slows down players.  I am talking about recycling art assets, just with different colors.

 

I always approached new game development with the philosophy that art was the last thing to put in.  Unfortunately ACE opened up the internal workings of the alpha to the public, and the public isn't going to want to see the grey box designs with cool skills that all visually look the same, even though they may act completely different to the player or stats.

 

I'm sure that others can give a brief list of their favorite skills/spells from over the years of gaming; here is my quick list.

 

Big bomb from Sentinel in SB (AoE holy damage, not group friendly, it would kill group members if they got caught in it)

Druid earthquake or thorns in SB (eq was a high damage spell, thorns was a group friendly AoE slow)

DK jump to player (don't remember the game, but it was a gap closer and single target damage dealer, we have this kind of with the Myrm net skill)

Poisons from the thief in SB (different poisons did different things, stam drain, hp drain, mana drain etc.)

Mystic in Tera (the orb laying ability was unique and didn't just lay hp orbs, but mana orbs)

 

But bottom line, is where are the fun skills that make group play so much more interesting; and we don't need art for these yet, or at least just placeholder art.

Edited by Teufel

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Dark Souls combat imo.  Looking even better is that up-and-coming melee combat game, For Honor.  Youtube it.  I would rejoice if CF could pull that off.

Having played For Honor, I disagree. It might look cool if you're watching, but combat in that game feels like crap to play. It's unintuitive and unrewarding, even if you're good at it.

 

It's like they played Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and said "Whoa! How can we make this combat feel terrible?!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Eventually, there will be more skills and the ability to switch which skills are on our power bar. They've 100% confirmed that.

 

What I'd like to see is the combos separated into unique skills.

 

I agree heavily with the bolded part. Really anything to make the ATs less like playing Halo and more like I actually built a character that is different from the one to my left and right.

 

My fear is that every AT will (certainly does atm) essentially play the same, save gear. 5% more crit .... for everyone after 6 months. whoooptedoo. I'm unique.

 

I don't think they will even add that many new abilities. They will rehash existing skills and call them disciplines and you'll get 3 or 4 of those.

 

Agreed with the bolded parts. I would much prefer to have my combos broken out into different, on-demand abilities. 

 

Maybe go so far as to place an ability's full potential (damage or healing) behind a prerequisite ability.

 

Say, for example, confessor fire tornados. Let them be used on-demand for a knock-up + damage hit. But give them a higher damage hit + dot effect if used after the current prereq ability. It doesn't stop a confessor from using said tornados if they need it in a hurry, but it does give them the option to plan out their abilities to maximize their damage if they can work their playstyle around a series of deliberately synergetic abilities.

 

Basically, anything that gives player's more influence into how they play and the outcome they achieve. The skill curve with the system as it stands is just too shallow for my tastes. I share coolwaters' concern that the ATs are too uniform and the only negligible difference is gear and passive skill time/allocation.  

 

I would much prefer a situation where I don't know how an enemy AT will respond. It makes for more dynamic engagements if I cannot predict, button-for-button, what's about to come at me. I'd much rather be forced to learn how individuals prefer to fight as you see them again and again.

Edited by Rhast
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Having played For Honor, I disagree. It might look cool if you're watching, but combat in that game feels like crap to play. It's unintuitive and unrewarding, even if you're good at it.

 

It's like they played Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and said "Whoa! How can we make this combat feel terrible?!"

 

Haha this is unfortunately so true. I played the beta a bit, its essentially a worse but prettier version of Chivalry/M+B/Tiger Knight.

Archetypes I am Interested in: Templar, Legionnaire, Myrmidon, Confessor.
Also, Looking for a Guild, preferably Oceanic but also US West works best for me. (Misery)

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