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Anthrage

Crowfall's Combat System is Flawed

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Agreed with the bolded parts. I would much prefer to have my combos broken out into different, on-demand abilities. 

 

Maybe go so far as to place an ability's full potential (damage or healing) behind a prerequisite ability.

 

This needs to happen. Or even keeping the combo system, but giving a wider window to follow up and not require them to direct. Example, you can hit 3 and have a couple GCDs to hit the follow up, but can use other skills in between. Anything to add some variety.

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Having played For Honor, I disagree. It might look cool if you're watching, but combat in that game feels like crap to play. It's unintuitive and unrewarding, even if you're good at it.

 

It's like they played Chivalry: Medieval Warfare and said "Whoa! How can we make this combat feel terrible?!"

 

 

That sucks.  I was looking forward to it. :angry:

 

Play and see for yourself. Personally, I thought the combat system was very fun and rewarding. I had a great time. They just don't have a lot of variety between the classes right now (no ranged for example), but they're planning to release more classes anyways. 


 

 

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Yes, it is. Nearly a year ago, I suggested that they rethink the combo system. Having everything built around recycles makes decision-making minimal.

 

I am, however, highly in favor of doing re-hash (+ other things) in disciplines. And this seems very likely, given Werebear and the like being discussed.

 

If they combined that discipline vision with a consequential combo system, we'd really be somewhere in terms of combat decisions and variety. Imagine them being able to develop sequential combos across ATs and disciplines. Great variety and reaction added to the game.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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No, these games ["League of Legends", "Blade & Souls"] should not be the models for Crowfall; return to a traditional MMORPG with some action combat elements.  Make the game about the character, and less about the game mechanic interactions.  League of Legends is for short attention people, where some of us would like to actually think more about our games, and immerse ourselves into the fantasy worlds that are created by the developers; with it all being wrapped up in a fun PvP experience.

We don't need another "EverQuest Next" / "Landmark" disaster.

 

"Crowfall" can't compete with classic AAA MMORPGs like "The Elder Scrolls Online" (which actually has a lot you seem to ask for). I wrote "economic reasons" for a reason. I am not advocating selling out, but just acknowledging that the resources of ACE are very limited and that they should focus on combat mechanics that are fun even without the context of a rich background world with deep lore. And I mentioned games, whose mechanics have proven to work for a massive audience.

 

"League of Legends" has 100 million players per month. One per mille of that number would already be a good success for "Crowfall". It's not about copying its systems, but it would be crazy to ignore what made it such a huge success.

 

"Crowfall" will not become a rehash of "EverQuest" or "World of Warcraft" with some action elements added. It would not survive its launch.

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We don't need another "EverQuest Next" / "Landmark" disaster.

 

"Crowfall" can't compete with classic AAA MMORPGs like "The Elder Scrolls Online" (which actually has a lot you seem to ask for). I wrote "economic reasons" for a reason. I am not advocating selling out, but just acknowledging that the resources of ACE are very limited and that they should focus on combat mechanics that are fun even without the context of a rich background world with deep lore. And I mentioned games, whose mechanics have proven to work for a massive audience.

 

"League of Legends" has 100 million players per month. One per mille of that number would already be a good success for "Crowfall". It's not about copying its systems, but it would be crazy to ignore what made it such a huge success.

 

"Crowfall" will not become a rehash of "EverQuest" or "World of Warcraft" with some action elements added. It would not survive its launch.

 

MOBAs are popular for different reasons.

 

To my way of thinking intentionally copying their combat is a bad idea. If I wanted to play a MOBA, well, I'd have saved a ton of time and $.

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MOBAs are popular for different reasons.

 

To my way of thinking intentionally copying their combat is a bad idea. If I wanted to play a MOBA, well, I'd have saved a ton of time and $.

 

"H1Z1" is an example. The Battle Royal (~ MOBA) mode is very successful, the original persistent version is not.

 

It would not surprise me, if a polished version of "Hunger Dome" would draw in more players than the campaign worlds.

 

As I said: It's not about copying. It's about acknowledging "League of Legends"'s near perfect game design. It avoids many downfalls of MMORPGs or RPGs in general, that is for example pseudo-complexity = a lot of redundant variables (attributes) which in the end don't add any complexity. Instead it has many items with unique abilities that go beyond the normal cookie-cutter item generation in classic MMORPGs.

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Just following up on my other post about there being a low amount of skills... I think a way to add a lot of complexity while continuing their "chain attack" philosophy would be to, like others have suggested to remove the chain abilities into single skills, and allow us to actually choose from a range of different abilities to slot into the various parts of the combo.

 

I.e for myrm you'd be able to choose the combos as they are now on the 3 key (3-3 gore and 3-E stun)...Or choose from a few different skills. So maybe your 3-3 could stay as gore, but you want to drop a stun for a snare/bleed ability so your 3-E would be able to be changed to that specific ability you enjoy.

 

Tbh I just want more complexity and more customization but I'm afraid after disciplines it still just won't be there and every engagement will be generally the same

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Its all about mobility, stuns and crits (except for the siege part). 

 

Resources that enable this will be in the highest demand. Those that don't won't. 

Edited by Ironmike

The%20Crowfall%20Economist%20Official%20

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... I come from Guild Wars (the original one, although I played lots fo GW2) with it's reduced/limited skills of 8 (!) on any given time that you have to set before entering your instance -and whenever they added new skills to choose, the balancing got more difficult - it was not as bad as MtG the TCG, where old cards are almost useless after the next uber-edition gets released, but the more skills were available, the more useless skills were available too.

 

I also played lots of other MMOs with abundance of skill bars readily available everytime, but that was not better than the former.

So quantity didn't beat quality in that case (as in most cases IMHO).

 

So it is no problem for me having only a few skills for combat (lots of action games have around three: weak/medium/strong attack), because combat dynamics does not originate only from a big skill pool - it mostly gets only messier this way.

 

What I would like would be more options to react to the skills used in combat - or at least that it would matter what I do in a fight apart from spooling rotations till oblivion is dawning :)

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...

"Crowfall" will not become a rehash of "EverQuest" or "World of Warcraft" with some action elements added. It would not survive its launch.

 

Crowfall cannot be (and won't be, thanks ACE!) just another PvE WoW clone, this is true.  Right now, given what they've developed, this isn't even a slight concern.  The potential danger at this point is that it will go too far the other direction--the way of other genres like the hero shooter and survival game.  As much as we don't need or want another WoW, I can't believe we need another Ark, Rust or Conan Exiles (and now add Dark and Light to that list).  People did not flock to CF for a new survival game, MOBA or a new version of Overwatch--they came for a PvP MMORGP.  Many heard the name of "Shadowbane" uttered once more after a long silence and started to rally.

 

As it is, I think CF is on track to be a good game.  However, I think some decisions yet to be made, or perhaps revealed, will have a large influence on whether it is the game we (probably most of us) came to play. 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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 As much as we don't need or want another WoW, I can't believe we need another Ark, Rust or Conan Exiles (and now add Dark and Light to that list).  People did not flock to CF for a new survival game, MOBA or a new version of Overwatch--they came for a PvP MMORGP.  

Exactly.

 

If you make a frankenstein monster, im not sure if its going to do well.

 

They kept saying its for a niche' but all this moba/survival stuff is really making it seem like they are trying to make it for more people.


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This needs to happen. Or even keeping the combo system, but giving a wider window to follow up and not require them to direct. Example, you can hit 3 and have a couple GCDs to hit the follow up, but can use other skills in between. Anything to add some variety.

 

There are a few skills on the Witch/Wizard in Black Desert that work like this. You have to add the skills to your hotbar to make it work, but it ends up being pretty useful. So you'll have a Fireball and then you get a 7 second self buff that gives you 7 seconds to use the follow explosion ability.

 

You can move around, use other skills, whatever, as long as you hit your hotbar keybind before the 7 seconds is up. It also allows for some unique combos that wouldn't otherwise be possible, such as using two of these "follow-up explosion" combo abilities back to back for more burst (i.e. you've used the starter chain skill for both lightning and fireball skills, and then you can use the two higher damage explosions back to back with two hotbar keybinds quickly before the 7 second buffs are up).

 

So they're initially both hidden as the 2nd ability in an attack chain, but when you're allowed to throw stuff on a hotbar and have a nice self buff giving you time to cast it, it gives you more options in how to use your abilities. I think 7 seconds is a bit short - I might suggest 10 or 15 - at least for that class it was, but the idea is a good one.

 

I would prefer that combo/chain abilities be removed and introduced as their own skills, however. If that means adding a few extra hotbar keybinds I'm ok with that.

Edited by Leiloni

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Exactly.

 

If you make a frankenstein monster, im not sure if its going to do well.

 

They kept saying its for a niche' but all this moba/survival stuff is really making it seem like they are trying to make it for more people.

 

It does feel kitchen-sinky.

 

Siege warfare. It's what's on the menu.

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So after thinking a bit about the topic, I manage to build a clear visions, which elements I really miss in the combat.

 

First, it was told that it is skill-based. Now the combat of meele characters is just about turning your mouse and holding LMB + A or D better than your opponent. Sometimes, you may push RMB and any direction, just because you are bored of the previously described movement. Not a fun...

 

The game needs more possible ways of evasion than these two things that combine both. It is told the speed of combat will be kept so that everyone can evade enemie's attacks. Let mi give you some examples how this looks in reality.

  • Champion masters his heavy axe like old lady was holding it. His movements are slow and definitely not fluent. You always know from which side the attack is coming, but there is no way to evade it anyway (like crouch, jump high enough or blink to the air).
  • On the other hand, Knight with heavy armor and over 10 kilos weighting shield could easily win a dancing competition. You never know from which angle the attack comes in comparation to Champion.
  • Duelist has completely different height.

I think there should be specific ways for archetypes to evade. Knight has his shield, which is a good unique example. Let those like duelist jump over the opponent, or perhaps, let him move under the opponent. RMB should not be immediate leap, so it's trajectory could be a bit curved, a bit into the air and a bit on the way to the West. Blinking heroes should be able to blink really high and cast a spell from the air once. Four legs heroes should be able to tackle their enemies or kick them, so they will miss the attack, because they are away. It will be awesome, if some attacks have a strong pushing ability such as Minotaur's one. But I mean autoattack. Just hold W and attack, if your opponent is not moving backward, you will make him move backward, if you weight significantly more. These things are really missed.

 

But it should be possible to evade ranged projectiles too. Actually confessor fires so fast that you can never evade more than half even if you are duelist. You can jump just in one direction and then you are hit within the air. This goes also wrong, because this jumping will make you evade one and you will be hit by two. It's rather like a stun.

 

Combat is also not fluent. Ultimate ability basically looks that you fly in the air, battle succesfully with the gravitation for two seconds and then hit the grounds. I think a direction to evade should be to jump! Currently, the animation is so slow that it gives you acess to leave the landing area and it is only the way to evade. Make it faster and more fluent and let jumping be a sort of evasions (except for druid's ulti for example).

 

 

Apart from evasion and ATK direction, it was already told, that you should be able to use spells and skills immediately even during your LMB attacks. There's no need to wait until your animation ends. Had real warriord had their animations either, so they waited to finish their attack and then blocked? No, they hadn't. They blocked when it was coming and not after finishing their own 'animation' or 'movement'. You must be prepared for unexpected and in Crowfall, you can not. This is what should make Crowfall combat fun. A battle of blocks (knight), attacks, evasion, pushes and other fun skills. Also, there should be an ability to preven your enemies from going around you, so your army will not mess with the enemies and you will possibly manage to sustaion some sort of formation.

 

Chosen


Mercenary guild is recruiting. Send me a message if you are interested.

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One thing GW2 did really well imo on some classes was combat evasion. Specifically on the ranger class with their sword main hand/dagger off hand. When you equipped sword as your main hand you got access to an ability that basically dodge rolled you around and behind your target, which was awesome and had a high skill cap being used at the perfect time. Similarly, their dagger off hand had a skill that was a side step

 

I think CF combat could really benefit from skills like that, especially once we see more and more skills get changed to find the nice medium between root motion and free motion that I'm hoping for.

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Many heard the name of "Shadowbane" uttered once more after a long silence and started to rally.

 

It was Ultima Online and Starwars: Galaxies for me :o

 

That said, everyone seems to be of generally the same mindset in that the combat system needs work. The divergence from there is that we all have our own unique preferences and it's not feasible to please everyone.

 

My previous post on page 2 addresses most of what I'd prefer to see changed.

Edited by Rhast

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I saw someone say this won't have the high action combos of eastern mmos. Talking about a skill ceiling. I just want to point out. Eastern mmo's have the lowest skill ceilings I have ever seen. Even their action games tend to be all about the gear and the grind, and not about skill. I have lost faith in them. So while this combat might not be on eastern mmo's level. At least it doesn't bury skill caps under gear score. Not that I have seen yet anyway. I would rather them work on stable combat before changing the mechanics. Stability first so we can see what the actual skill reqs might be. 

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