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Arkade

Knight 2.0

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With the revamp of the knight due to hit the test servers later today, I thought it would be good to have a thread where we can discuss what needs to be tested and share with each other any insights we discover.

 

Since we haven't gotten to test the changes yet, I'll start with what we need for testing.

 

Stamina system 

 

The mana system had its flaws. Some people disliked it for purely aesthetic reasons, but my biggest gripe was that the regeneration was tacked on and we were forced to use Oath of Will whenever it was off cooldown so that we wouldn't run out of mana. If Oath of Will did anything other than just restore mana, it might have been okay, but as implemented was just a necessary evil that added nothing to the play style and provide no real choice. 

 

I want regeneration to be something we don't have to use all the time, but enough so that we have to make choices. I also want the regeneration to be attached to abilities that do more than just regenerate stamina. Think about the Myrmidon's #3 combo where they have to choose between regenerating Fury or using their stun.

 

Previously, we regenerated mana via basic attacks (7 per hit), blocking (10 per block) and Oath of Will (210) and we regenerated stamina via the 1st part of the #3 combo (20 stamina IIRC). Noble Blood, Oath of Will and Leap Smash were free. I'm very interested to see which abilities now regenerate stamina, which ones cost stamina and overall how the regeneration feels.

 

They've said they are still tweaking this to make it feel right, so make sure you give good feedback on how it plays. If you find that you are always out of stamina, or conversely, you find it impossible to run out of stamina, make sure to note that in the feedback thread. 

 

Block

 

Given the listed changes to Block, and the change to the stamina system, I think we'll need to be more selective in when we use it. We won't be able to sit behind our shield the entire time a Myrm is berserking on us. 

 

We need to see if they have struck a good balance here though. Does our stamina run out too fast when we block big attacks? Does it leave us with too little stamina to counter attack? Again, feedback is going to be important so they can find the sweet spot.

 

We will also need to test to see if both fire and electric attacks are being reflected. Previously, it didn't seem that electric attacks from the druid were being reflected, but that may have been because those attacks weren't flagged as magic (or maybe I just didn't get attacked by druids enough to notice).

 

Damage

 

As we block attacks, our damage increases. We need to verify that this is actually increasing the damage on all of our attacks, and by the stated amount. Given the RNG nature of damage, it will be impossible to know for sure that the correct amounts are being added, but with enough examples, we should see the average being close to the expected.

 

In addition, the -10% damage bonus has been removed. Make sure this is reflected in the paper doll statistics and, if you can, also try to compare your new baseline damage to your previous baseline damage. Again, because of RNG, it may be hard to tell exactly how much the damage has increased, but it should be enough for you to notice a difference.

 

Basic attacks (LMB) will be slower, but will do more damage. Do the changes feel good? Are the attacks too slow or the damage too high? Not high enough? How will the slower attack speed affect our ability to trigger Shield Bash?

 

Shield Bash

 

This is probably the most exciting change. There are 2 ways to activate it. One is by blocking a large hit and the other is by connecting with basic attack 3 times in a row.

 

What constitutes a big hit? The reveal actually says "taking" a big hit rather than blocking a big hit, but since it is listed under the changes for Block, I'm assuming Blair meant to say "blocking". 

 

  • Does blocking a big hit trigger Shield Bash?
  • If so, what is the threshold for triggering it? Is that threshold too high or too low?
  • Does hitting with basic attack 3 times in a row trigger Shield Bash? Is it too hard/easy to trigger it via basic attacks?
  • Does hitting a target with Shield Bash apply the Daze effect? Does the Daze effect cause the target to move slower?
  • Does Shield Bash make the target unable to use their RMB dodges/blinks?
  • If so, how long does it last and is it too short or too long?
  • What happens if Shield Bash is used on a Knight? Does it stop the knight from using Block? What about the Templar?
  • If you hit the target with Shield Bash, then hit the target again with Shield Bash, does it automatically crit? 
  • If so, what is the maximum time between Shield Bash hits to guarantee a crit?
  • How does Shield Bash affect your play style and overall mobility issues?

Pursuit

 

This ability is still "broken" in that it won't do everything we've come to expect of it, which is to have a variable distance based on when the button is released and the ability to steer during the charge. For now, it is a single-press-to-activate ability. Verify that it works as currently intended. 

 

Leap Smash and Soul Power

 

Many of us have been unhappy with Leap Smash, mostly due to the wonky physics associated with it. This ability was previously free, but had a cooldown. Now there is no cooldown, but requires Soul Power, which can only be generated by taking and doing damage. 

 

  • Does blocking an attack reduce the amount of Soul Power we generate, or is it based on unmitigated damage?
  • How much Soul Power is required to activate Leap Smash? Is it too much or too little?
  • Are there any hidden cooldowns?

Shield Slam

 

Currently on the #7 key, this ability remains the same except for the added push back effect. Verify that the push back works and provide feedback on its effectiveness. 

 

 

I think that covers all of the changes and everything that needs to be tested. I assume Chain Attack will still be unreliable, but if that has changed in any way, make sure to note it. If any other abilities have changed and haven't been documented in the reveal, make note of that as well.

 

Each archetype is only going to get so many kicks at the can before go-live. We need to be sure to give quality feedback so that any issues can be addressed.

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We will also need to test to see if both fire and electric attacks are being reflected. Previously, it didn't seem that electric attacks from the druid were being reflected, but that may have been because those attacks weren't flagged as magic (or maybe I just didn't get attacked by druids enough to notice).

 

Electric attacks were being reflected previously, as were Earth and Nature damage (I think).  The druid just does electric attacks so infrequently that it wasn't much reflect damage. The only electric attacks (I think, thank you poor tool tips) were the 2 combo, and LMB in the death tray.  Gaea's Wail (Bear), Druid Bombs and the dinky little dot from Faerie Fire were Nature damage or Earth damage, which were previously flagged as magic damage.

Edited by destrin

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Here's some complete speculation on my part:

 

  • We're going to run out of stamina fast and often.
  • The lack of stamina + additional stamina penalty for being hit "hard" will mean we can't rely on block. 
  • Less block will mean less survivability. Knights don't really have many tools to mitigate damage outside of 'Noble Blood', and that ability isn't really anything to write home about.
  • We'll be slightly better at locking down people and do more damage, but at the aforementioned loss of "tankiness".

 

Hopefully I'm wrong on all of these points.

Edited by helix

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Stamina system

 

The mana system had its flaws. Some people disliked it for purely aesthetic reasons, but my biggest gripe was that the regeneration was tacked on and we were forced to use Oath of Will whenever it was off cooldown so that we wouldn't run out of mana. If Oath of Will did anything other than just restore mana, it might have been okay, but as implemented was just a necessary evil that added nothing to the play style and provide no real choice. 

 

I want regeneration to be something we don't have to use all the time, but enough so that we have to make choices. I also want the regeneration to be attached to abilities that do more than just regenerate stamina. Think about the Myrmidon's #3 combo where they have to choose between regenerating Fury or using their stun.

 

Previously, we regenerated mana via basic attacks (7 per hit), blocking (10 per block) and Oath of Will (210) and we regenerated stamina via the 1st part of the #3 combo (20 stamina IIRC). Noble Blood, Oath of Will and Leap Smash were free. I'm very interested to see which abilities now regenerate stamina, which ones cost stamina and overall how the regeneration feels.

 

They've said they are still tweaking this to make it feel right, so make sure you give good feedback on how it plays. If you find that you are always out of stamina, or conversely, you find it impossible to run out of stamina, make sure to note that in the feedback thread. 

 

 

I see issues with the single resource.

 

Disadvantages:

- Knights while harvesting are at a bigger disadvantage than other classes due to harvesting draining stamina.

- Knights will not benefit from any of the + resource or + mana skills in the general schools. 

- Sprinting will drain their "resource" pool

 

Advantages: 

- Can focus solely on stacking + stamina gear instead of worrying about + resource. + stamina gear will benefit both their resource pool, sprint pool and RMB pool. 

 

Overall I wish they just renamed the mana pool to "valor" or something else and gave better ways to regen "valor". I think a single resource pool is going to cause balance issues, skill tree issues, equipment issues, etc. and it's just not worth all of the issues it will create. 


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Here's some complete speculation on my part:

 

  • We're going to run out of stamina fast and often.
  • The lack of stamina + additional stamina penalty for being hit "hard" will mean we can't rely on block. 
  • Less block will mean less survivability. Knights don't really have many tools to mitigate damage outside of 'Noble Blood', and that ability isn't really anything to write home about.
  • We'll be slightly better at locking down people and do more damage, but at the aforementioned loss of "tankiness".

 

Hopefully I'm wrong on all of these points.

Those are my concerns as well. I really wanted some form of defense that wasn't tied to Block (Noble Blood doesn't cut it). 

 

I wish they would take back the extra HP they gave us and give back the higher base mitigation we had. They could add it to the middle abilities in the onslaught chain if they want, so those abilities will actually serve a purpose. Add a physical mitigation buff to one of them and elemental mitigation to the other. Done.

 

I don't want to get too far ahead here though. I want to see how it plays out.

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Feedback thread is locked / nonexistent so I'll post my early impressions here.

 

I'm not liking it. Feel like stamina is overburdened now. Oath of will is still gotta be one of the lamest, laziest ability I've ever seen (and it's still a total necessity, so you end up burn noble blood for it).

 

I find myself running out of stam fast, especially mid combo which makes intertwining oath in-between pretty much impossible.

Edited by helix

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Finding some of the same with my first impression. I don't mind the system change but Stamina just runs out way too fast (just like mana)

 

The obvious "fix" would be to reduce the amount of stamina our abilities consume because boosting the stamina pool would make Knight's OP harvesters.

 

More testing to come. 

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I've been playing and fighting some more, and thinking about what changes are needed to make the stamina system work. Given how much stamina is used when blocking an attack, we can't use Block as much. Now it's more block one attack and then do something else. I'm not against the change per se, but I feel like we are far less tanky as a result.

 

The tweaks I am going to propose are targeted at making the knight feel a little more tanky again, while improving the stamina system so that with smart play, we won't be running out of stamina.

 

  1. Lower the amount of stamina that is consumed when blocking a hit so that we can use Block more. Not drastically, but enough so that we can block 3 attacks in a row and still have enough stamina left to attack.
  2. Lower the damage bonus from blocking. Instead of getting 15% per block, make it 10%, but make it last 8 seconds instead of 5. This will be necessary to compensate for being able to use Block more.
  3. Get rid of Noble Blood, Oath of Will and Twin Assault.
  4. Move Shield Slam back to #2.
  5. Move Shield Bash to #5.
  6. Add a 3k barrier to Shield Bash.
  7. Add a 20 stamina regen to Shield Bash. 
  8. Change Brutal Strike to be weapon damage instead of crushing.

Twin assault serves absolutely no purpose. Brutal Strike does more damage and costs less stamina. The only reason someone might want to use Twin Assault is because it does weapon damage, but I can't imagine any knight speccing for anything other than crushing damage, given how many crushing attacks we have. The proposed changes will consolidate these abilities, while still giving players a choice of damage type.

 

The Noble Blood/Oath of Will combo is just terrible. Noble Blood is currently broken, not providing the barrier. By combining these effects with Shield Bash, albeit at a reduced rate to compensate for more frequent use, combat will be a lot smoother.

 

The net result should make us a little more of a tank by allowing more prolonged use of Block and giving us a better non-Block defense option than Noble Blood.

 

Thoughts?

 

Now that I've gotten to play the new knight a little more, I think the stamina system can work, but it needs to be tweaked. Lower the amount of stamina that is taken when blocking a hit. Right now it's too much. Lower the amount of stamina that our abilities cost. Again, too much. We should be able to block a few attacks and still have enough stamina left over to attack or sprint as necessary. 

 

If we are going to be able to block more (as we should be able to, if we are tanks), then the damage buff from blocking needs to increase at a slower rate and the buff needs to last longer. Instead of 15% for each block, make it 10% and make it last 8 seconds instead of 5.

 

Get rid of Noble Blood and Oath of Will, move Shield Slam back to #2, move Shield Bash to #5 and add the barrier and stamina regen to Shield Bash. If we aren't going to get more damage on it, combine the utility. Lower the barrier amount to 3k to compensate for being able to use it more often. Lower the amount of stamina regen to 20 since we can use it more often.

 

I've love for them to get rid of Twin Assault and Brutal Strike, or better yet, give them a purpose besides providing a delay before we can use Obliterate or Shockwave. For some reason, Twin Assault costs 10 more stamina than Brutal Strike, while only doing 2/3rds the damage. The only "benefit" to Twin Assault is that it does weapon damage instead of crushing damage.

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Right now I don't see a huge difference between how stamina (could work) for the knight and the fury mechanic on the myrmidon. Since the tech already exists I'd just give knight the same fury resource mechanic (name it something else if you gotta). I don't know if they can encapsulate stamina on the knight and give it different functionality without affecting other archetypes or if they even want to.

 

I agree that rolling the functionality of noble blood and oath of will into one ability makes way more sense.

 

I also don't think giving every archetype a damage buff should be the "go to" band-aid fix. If they're increasing the damage of the knight to rival the myrmidon that is erroneous IMO (the myrmidon's damage is far too high for something classified as a "tank"). 

 

I think the buff you get off blocking should be a damage mitigation instead of a damage output buff.

Edited by helix

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I have to agree with Arkade.

Right now we have to be very careful with blocking, as blocking at the wrong time can cost you all your stamina. (eg. blocking during a Myrmidon Whirlwind, the tripple attack on Confessor Leftclick, and some others). You are able to block singular powerful abilities, wich is still nice, but changes the role of the Knight. We feel like a Damage dealer with low damage and a Riposte that blocks one attack and gives you a damage buff on the next ability you use, if you time it correctly.

I was never a Knight who sat behind is Shield any longer than necessary, but now I find myself blocking very rarely, and when I do its more an old reflex that I sometimes even regret.

The free Block on Shield Slam has become a lot more important, I used it mainly for damage before, but now its my main survival.

That beeing said, it is fun to block an important attack and pull of a nice snapshotted bleed with it, and if you are careful you can pull it off and get back to a lot of stamina with Shield Slam (since you are regenerating while using it).
In general I also kind of like the concept of the block being more costly, and make it more of a choice to use it (apart from just "you loose damage and slowing") but I think I would prefer the block being more expensive the longer you hold it (or just flat expensive), but indifferent of hits. And I can see the way it is now working as well, but "big hits" should be higher (any leftclick or tick of a Whirlwind counts right now), and the costs of them lower. I could also see a system with higher costs depending on the actual damage, but really I like it best to have it unaffected by damage. Any change here will make the Knight weaker, but I have to agree the block was extremely powerfull.

Usage of Stamina for other Abilities is a concept I also consider a clear nerf to the knight, but also very interesting. It has the potential to create a meaningful choice to use the stamina more for self-sustain, or more for group Utility and CC. (Or even Damage if you really have too much, but I dont consider that the job of the knight).

The new Bash is awesome and exactly what I like to see on the knight, The Knockback is really fun an awesome to use as well, but the ShieldSlam was already a very good ability, so I dont feel that change was needed.

In general I have to say I dont like the new Knight, as he feels less impactful and a lot less tanky. I personnaly dont really care for the damage buff.
That could however just me being accustomed to the way the Knight played for the last 13 Months, maybe Ill get used to it if I play it a bit more and we get the adjustments that are planned.

Also I have not yet tried to run a full plate Knight, as that is an option with the new changes for armor. together with adjustments to Blockcosts he might be very tanky again.

A Note on #5, the Barrier does actually work, it just does not show for yourself. Other People can see the Barrier, and it prevents Damage as it should. I dont mind spending time to regenerate Mana (or now Stamina), but the changes that Arkade is Suggesting sound like a nice alternative. I would rather return the Stamina buff to the first part of the #3, otherwise its just a lot utility on one ability.

removing Noble Blood would also mean we can not use it before combat anymore, wich was a very nice strategy to prevent any damage from going through block, but I dont mind that going away, as it makes it easier to writtle down a knight over time.

My suggestion would be to replace Noble blood by the new shield bash, give the shield to another power (shield bash sounds alright as you need to activate it first, and it would make the knights defense stronger the more he blocks big hits, an Idea that I kind of like...) reintroduce Stamina regeneration to #3, remove "big hits" from block, but give it either a bigger flat cost (double it would be fine for me), or give it increasing costs for holding it longer than a second.

Edited by Metauriel

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Have to agree with pretty much everything Meta said (we were testing together for several hours).

 

The things I'd like to add:

 

  • I don't like how Knights are now punished for sprinting even more than they were before. You basically can't sprint at all in a fight, as your using up your primary combat resource. It feels pretty punishing.
  • While fun to play, the Knight doesn't really feel like a tank anymore. He feels more like a brawler, but if you compare his potential to tank to the Myrmidon, it's not even close. It was before with the longer block, but it breaks now after a few hits, so getting focused is an instant death sentence (which it shouldn't be on a tank).
  • We're still forced to spam Oath of Will. It's still lame.
  • I absolutely love landing a snapshotted bleed, after charging my damage with blocks. It feels great, but it's nearly impossible to land, as you can only take 2 hits on your block before you run out of stamina to pull of the bleed combo. The block damage bonus is really short in general. I feel like it could be boosted a bit.
Edited by Supreeme

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who tried knight with advanced weapon (max weapon efficiency?) also I would like to see any stamina efficiency tests.

with basic weapon knight is lol atm. more nerf than anything else.


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

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An Idea I just had: with the tech for both "big hits" and flat costs in the game, how about linking that to stats.
Big shields could be expensive to just hold up, but nearly indifferent of hits, while small shields have close to no flat costs, but cost stamina on every hit they take...


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I want Knight to be the hardest target in the game. Other classes are tanky + healing or tanky + damage, but I think Knight should be the closest to a pure tank.

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4 hours ago, SunOfSol said:

I want Knight to be the hardest target in the game. Other classes are tanky + healing or tanky + damage, but I think Knight should be the closest to a pure tank.

other classes are tanky than knight? no, he is the best with mitigating damage (not with basic weapon ofc)

other classes are more damage than knight? not all for sure.

again, lvl your combat, craft good advanced weapon and try it out. knight have huge CC amount (not so clunky like, for example, champion), decent damage and best survivability in team fights (as well as templar)

all knight needed - separated resource for block (stamina resource was terrible idea), some rebalance on skills dmg (I think some of skills still based on shield damage which is zero) for example, counter attack damage. and some C power rework.

also chain attack need a bit more hitbox so ppl can success using it.

 


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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I think you completely misunderstood my comment. I wasn't talking about how things are... at all. I'm saying I'd like to see a pure tank, and *thematically* Knight seems to fit the bill. 

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20 hours ago, makkon said:

other classes are tanky than knight? no, he is the best with mitigating damage (not with basic weapon ofc)

other classes are more damage than knight? not all for sure.

again, lvl your combat, craft good advanced weapon and try it out. knight have huge CC amount (not so clunky like, for example, champion), decent damage and best survivability in team fights (as well as templar)

all knight needed - separated resource for block (stamina resource was terrible idea), some rebalance on skills dmg (I think some of skills still based on shield damage which is zero) for example, counter attack damage. and some C power rework.

also chain attack need a bit more hitbox so ppl can success using it.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself (with a Russian accent).


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