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Propaganda

Too much survival game not enough sandbox.

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Crowfall is going in the wrong direction in terms of mechanics and design. The classes and combat are on par but I feel like they are missing the mark with several systems.

 

First of all, I dislike that you can craft anywhere in the world as opposed to having to deal with the issue of logistics. I'd appreciate forcing people to travel to a crafting bench or to some sort of crafting station in order to construct their gear/items. 

 

Second, I find the whole hunger system to be a little bit too much: ark, h1z1, and conan exiles-like. The game in its current state plays much like the aforementioned survival games. I believe food should be somewhat of a necessity but more along the lines of it boosting a stat or improving regeneration of health and mana.

 

Gathering is too easy and unrealistic as it imposes no logistics issue as seen in a number of sandbox games. For example, likening this to EVE Online one would not be able to simply "create" new modules in open space. They have to do it in stations or at other facilities. 

 

i believe the developers should take a good hard look at what works in other sandbox titles and also pay close attention to the extreme similarities with Survival games. A course change is necessary. 

 

Please let me know your thoughts and/or opinions on this.

Edited by Propaganda

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i agree on the crafting workshops, but i guess that is coming later on (just like housing and siege warfare)

 

one thing that worries me is the lack of character customisation in terms of skills/abilitys, feel like a moba atm

 

Excellent point, elvo. Something that I think most MMO players can agree on is that some level of customization, immersion, and advanced progression is expected for our characters. It does seem like a MOBA now that you mentioned it.


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Instead of assuming things, read up on the game and it's features before you hop into the game and start playing.

Character customization will be be very deep with promotion classes, dis- and advantages and, discipline runestones and the current skill system. Factories, caravans, crafting tables will also be implemented soon.

 

Read the FAQ's, if you still have questions or comments after that, then you should post here. Not before. 

 

I'll make it easy for you, you can find the FAQ's here: https://crowfall.com/en/faq/


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Crafting when fully implemented, will be happening in workstations most of it (although i believe basic and most of survival stuff will be available everywhere/everytime) and as of logistics, when POIs and Caravan system gets in, we will get the loop properly as closely to what you´re refering to ;)

 

 

Excellent point, elvo. Something that I think most MMO players can agree on is that some level of customization, immersion, and advanced progression is expected for our characters. It does seem like a MOBA now that you mentioned it.

 

If you are aware of game design plans, dont forget about Disciplines, Promotions and Advantages/Disadvantages! Plus with a revamped Skill system ;), it will improve deeply the options to satisfy our needs.

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If you are aware of game design plans, dont forget about Disciplines, Promotions and Advantages/Disadvantages! Plus with a revamped Skill system  ;), it will improve deeply the options to satisfy our needs.

 

When did they say they were going to revamp the skill system?

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When did they say they were going to revamp the skill system?

They HAVE said that the skill trees are currently filled with placeholders, though that was a while back. Right now, there are fewer placeholders than there were, but about ~50% of the skills still aren't in.

 

They're also still in the process of totally revamping some old archetypes, like the Knight just got a total rework. Every single skill had at least one change, and they got a whole new skill added that wasn't there a week ago.

 

Patience, folks. Pre-alpha does not represent the finished game.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Character customization will be be very deep with promotion classes, dis- and advantages and, discipline runestones and the current skill system. 

Pretty big assumption.

 

The evidence so far points to the exact opposite. It has all you have said, but it will more than likely be extremely shallow. Its going to be closer to how Diablo3 did its janky character building.

 

 

But yeah, the sandbox mechanics are yet to be put in place.


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Pretty big assumption.

 

It's not an assumption. Those systems are going to be implemented. Each feature adds a different layer and complexity to the customization of your vessel and crow. 


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Pretty big assumption.

 

The evidence so far points to the exact opposite. It has all you have said, but it will more than likely be extremely shallow. Its going to be closer to how Diablo3 did its janky character building.

 

 

But yeah, the sandbox mechanics are yet to be put in place.

I don't think it's a big assumption. Or at least not an unreasonably big one.

 

Even with just the skills in place as they are now there's a fair amount of customization in play over the long term. Imagine three champions that, for the purposes of this hypothetical all focused purely on combat rather than gathering or crafting. Champ A goes pure offense, the aggressive archetype options, the weapon branches and trees in the generic combat, the works. It'll be the purest definition of dps. Champ B instead boosts it's armor skills, max health, constitution, debuff decreases.  You end up with a middle of the roadish fighter, still DPS based but much more survivable then most Champs. Three goes a bit weird and focuses on the duration Champions blinds, knockdowns and other CC effects. Unsuspecting player gos in expecting a brute and gets locked down. Mix in advanced vessels, advantage/disadvantage, disciplines,  promotions and any optional abilities they might add to the trees and you can probably safely assume that after a few months characters will shape up to function with significant differences even with similar general roles,

 

Keep in mind we are in pre-alpha, that's effectively step, what, two of five if you figure it goes isolated testing>pre-alpha>alpha>Beta>launch.

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It's not an assumption. Those systems are going to be implemented. Each feature adds a different layer and complexity to the customization of your vessel and crow. 

 

I don't think it's a big assumption. Or at least not an unreasonably big one.

 

Even with just the skills in place as they are now there's a fair amount of customization in play over the long term. Imagine three champions that, for the purposes of this hypothetical all focused purely on combat rather than gathering or crafting. Champ A goes pure offense, the aggressive archetype options, the weapon branches and trees in the generic combat, the works. It'll be the purest definition of dps. Champ B instead boosts it's armor skills, max health, constitution, debuff decreases.  You end up with a middle of the roadish fighter, still DPS based but much more survivable then most Champs. Three goes a bit weird and focuses on the duration Champions blinds, knockdowns and other CC effects. Unsuspecting player gos in expecting a brute and gets locked down. Mix in advanced vessels, advantage/disadvantage, disciplines,  promotions and any optional abilities they might add to the trees and you can probably safely assume that after a few months characters will shape up to function with significant differences even with similar general roles,

 

Keep in mind we are in pre-alpha, that's effectively step, what, two of five if you figure it goes isolated testing>pre-alpha>alpha>Beta>launch.

Have you even seen the skills?

 

For one, theres no diversity in either the AT training or the promotion skill training.

 

Combat training is largely linear with clear paths depending if you are ranged/melee and then 2hander/1hander. Not alot of diversity here.

 

You COULD train in armor and net a tiny bit of armor increase, but unless they heavily modify the armor crafting in the game its impossible to guarantee a resist, there's to many damage types. 

 

And thats sort of the issue, a champion is a champion no matter if his basic stats are a tiny bit more offensive or a tiny bit more defensive, he is played the exact same.

 

The promotion class will be largely statistical with -maybe- one additional power. This is straight from Todd.

 

Discipline runes will add a power and/or passive, up to three. Starter runes will modify stats, but guess what, there are clear favorite stats for each archetype.

 

So you are talking about slotting in up to 4 different powers to 'customize' your archetype.

 

Sorry folks, thats basically like a bad version of diablo3.

 

I get it you are in love with the THEORY of what it COULD be. But every sign of implementation and what they have said the actual plan is points otherwise, so unless they show or tell us something different, it is what it is.

Edited by Vectious

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Pretty big assumption.

 

The evidence so far points to the exact opposite. It has all you have said, but it will more than likely be extremely shallow. Its going to be closer to how Diablo3 did its janky character building.

 

 

But yeah, the sandbox mechanics are yet to be put in place.

Responds by calling something a big assumption by making an actual big assumption. Classic.

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Responds by calling something a big assumption by making an actual big assumption. Classic.

 

No, he responded by having actually read and understood not only the skill nodes themselves (which clearly provide no meaningful distinction from one given AT to the next) and the clear statement by the devs themselves that the very skills you are touting as providing diversity in character building are, directly contrary to the discussed premise, not in fact intended to provide build diversity.

Edited by coolwaters

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Aside from performance, my biggest concern is character customization. We've heard in this thread that you might get a maximum of 4 new powers along with some (possibly drastic) statistical enhancements from a fully disciplined out, promotion class tier character. If it turns out that this is enough to give any single archetype a number of different combat, crafting and exploration roles which drastically change how the character is played, I'll be content. If not, and most Knights feel and play like every other Knight (for example), I'll be disappointed.

 

My suspicion is that Blair, Todd and Halash don't have the discipline system (not to mention the promotion class system) fully concepted just yet. I suspect that once we're able to craft vessels and discipline runes reliably, the character and build diversity will begin to open up dramatically. I can think of a scenario where one would craft a Knight vessel with increased support power, take support power starting runes, craft and slot 3 disc runes which grant support power and some healing abilities, and before you know it you have a tanky support healer.

 

Either way, I don't expect any info about this subject coming to us anytime soon.


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No, he responded by having actually read and understood not only the skill nodes themselves (which clearly provide no meaningful distinction from one given AT to the next) and the clear statement by the devs themselves that the very skills you are touting as providing diversity in character building are, directly contrary to the discussed premise, not in fact intended to provide build diversity.

I'm not touting anything. Not sure how many times have to say its not at all constructive to put words in others mouths and use strawman arguments before it sinks in.

 

You know what my view is from past discussions. I am one thats been saying that other systems are where they intend the customization to come from. Having you throw it back like I don't know, means you're not really concerned about discussing it anymore, just want to lash out because you don't like the skill system. That's fine can not like it but don't go replying and quoting people if all you're going to do is twist their words and don't want actual honest debate anymore.

Edited by pang

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Vectious responds, quoting this:

 

 

 

Even with just the skills in place as they are now there's a fair amount of customization in play over the long term. 

 

by saying, on the contrary, that the the AT training does not provide character diversity. Then you do this:

 

Responds by calling something a big assumption by making an actual big assumption. Classic.

 

I point out that Vectious is 100% correct as per not only the node descriptions, but the direct quotes by T. Blair. Truly, the skill training isn't even intended to make your build unique: crafters will do that for you, maybe. Then you say:

 

I'm not touting anything. Not sure how many times have to say its not at all constructive to put words in others mouths and use strawman arguments before it sinks in.

 

The way I read it, Vectious is right and perhaps I don't understand your point.

Edited by coolwaters

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I'm not touting anything. Not sure how many times have to say its not at all constructive to put words in others mouths and use strawman arguments before it sinks in.

 

You know what my view is from past discussions. I am one thats been saying that other systems are where they intend the customization to come from. Having you throw it back like I don't know, means you're not really concerned about discussing it anymore, just want to lash out because you don't like the skill system. That's fine can not like it but don't go replying and quoting people if all you're going to do is twist their words and don't want actual honest debate anymore.

My issue with some of the discussion about the skill system is other people want to bring in systems outside of the skill system and say that magically we now have character depth.

 

Something is amiss here, and I believe that Vectious, Coolwaters, and to a lesser extent myself are trying to bring the faults of the node system to light.  So first we need to define what we are talking about, because it seems like you, and others, want to include the disciplines system in the discussion of character depth; that's fine, but then we need to re-name the "skills" system and call it the "node" system.  The node system then becomes part of the bigger character customization system, and skill system is no more.  Because if the "skill" system is not actually going to gain us any new skills, then what is that system even for?

 

For most players just coming to the game, they are going to look at the "node" system and think that their character customization will come from that system.  My guess is that most new players will look at the "node" system and expect 75% or more of customization to come from the nodes.  Right from the start most players expectations will not be met, and once you lose that, then it is a tough road to hold onto those players.

 

Yes, we will have disciplines, and yes that will give a greater degree of variability, but it should not be the place that a bulk of the customization comes from.

 

The node system could work, and it could work beautifully with a few small changes.  Actually make the node system work where there are mutually exclusive lines; if you go down this line, then you are blocked out from ever going down the other line.  The simplest example of this is with promotions; only allow each crow to choose 1 promotion from each archetype they train in.

 

One of the largest issues for me, is that I have no control on the final outlay of my stats.  Once all training is complete in the node system, I would have the exact same stats as anyone else that trains their nodes to max.  That is NOT differentiation.  One of the greatest things about SB was the skill system and how you could directly manipulate your stats and build a strength based templar vs an intelligent based templar, and each templar was viable.  These builds were viable and different ever before disciplines entered the picture, and that is my expectation here in CF; allow us as players to control our customization not just use the flawed stats created by devs.

Edited by Teufel

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