Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
VIKINGNAIL

Hardcore setting idea: Remove enemy information.

Recommended Posts

I think it would be cool and force more awareness and intuitiveness if there was a setting that removed things like the ability to see what an enemy's HP bar is at. 

 

I miss having to study a player's behavior to figure out and intuit what they were going to do throughout the course of a fight.  I think people have been conditioned to having too much free information in the pvp games they play and it has really lessened the requirement of situational understanding and awareness.

 

Also I think not knowing what guild someone is in unless they want to show their guild with a tabard or something would be really beneficial to the social element in these games.

 

Intel should become an extremely valuable resource and players should have to figure out where another player's loyalties lie and all the allegiances and politics without the game just telling them a lot of it for free. 

 

Imagine this kind of setting and you run across players as you play and you have no idea what guild they are in or what they are about and you actually have to, you know, interact and get to know them.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i agree with the able to hide / or not seeing a guild tag or name plate at all.

 

with not showing the HP id suggest that there is some visual effect maybe armor gets bloody at x% hp? or is that to hard to code.

 

ps. if some of u guys know "mortal online" in that game u can hide your guild tag which is pretty neat.

 

pps. i also liked your suggestion with current hp etc. values beeing divided by 20. smaller numbers plz


Bbhm5iJ.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can barely see people's nameplates/health bars in most battles and even then their names are so small they're illegible, so we're halfway to your suggestion already. 

I see you are an HP bar half-full kind of guy.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be cool and force more awareness and intuitiveness if there was a setting that removed things like the ability to see what an enemy's HP bar is at. 

 

I miss having to study a player's behavior to figure out and intuit what they were going to do throughout the course of a fight.  I think people have been conditioned to having too much free information in the pvp games they play and it has really lessened the requirement of situational understanding and awareness.

 

Also I think not knowing what guild someone is in unless they want to show their guild with a tabard or something would be really beneficial to the social element in these games.

 

Intel should become an extremely valuable resource and players should have to figure out where another player's loyalties lie and all the allegiances and politics without the game just telling them a lot of it for free. 

 

Imagine this kind of setting and you run across players as you play and you have no idea what guild they are in or what they are about and you actually have to, you know, interact and get to know them.

Another way to look at it though is: Remove the health-bar and you introduce theme-parked camouflaging of the condition of a target, be it yours or anyone elses.

 

E.G.: We are visual creatures (primarily / generally). In combat you SEE how badly people are hurt by their physical condition. Amount of blood, impairment (or not) of movement, dangling (or not) arms, etc.

 

IMO I've always seen the Health Bar as the emulation of state-of-health visual feedback. Not as a case of the UI providing you with "more", or even themeparked information.

 

So, in game play we can get our legs and arms blown off (using a % of total HP) but are STILL able to run around just fine, at full speed, pew-pewing away right up until you hit The Big Zero.

 

Given that, retaining health bars as a common sense visual queue on physical condition makes sense.

 

Unless what you are suggesting is we start seeing dynamic graphics indicators (more vs less blood), movement impairments (legs or arms damaged), etc.?

 

As far as Guild Tags on display or not . . . I'm ambivalent, still thinking through that idea. While one can find some (theoretical) Pros for that in game play, there are some (theoretical) Cons IMO. Still chewing on that one.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another way to look at it though is: Remove the health-bar and you introduce theme-parked camouflaging of the condition of a target, be it yours or anyone elses.

 

E.G.: We are visual creatures (primarily / generally). In combat you SEE how badly people are hurt by their physical condition. Amount of blood, impairment (or not) of movement, dangling (or not) arms, etc.

 

IMO I've always seen the Health Bar as the emulation of state-of-health visual feedback. Not as a case of the UI providing you with "more" information.

 

So, in game play we can get our legs and arms blown off (using a % of total HP) but are STILL able to run around just fine, at full speed, pew-pewing away right up until you hit The Big Zero.

 

Given that, retaining health bars as a common sense visual queue on physical condition makes sense.

 

Unless what you are suggesting is we start seeing dynamic graphics indicators (more vs less blood), movement impairments (legs or arms damaged), etc.?

I'm worried more about funism than realism and to me it's just a slightly different approach to what you emphasize in combat.  But I mean in fighting you don't always know how damaged your opponent really is either unless you look for tells in their behavior.  For me the player behavior and learning to understand those tells is important and in some ways similar to seeing blood or damage visually anyway. 

 

I guess for me it's just cooler in video games to fight people and try to beat them based on how they are behaving and reading that, instead of anything the game could offer up visually. 

 

That being said, I would take visual damage on the doll over an hp bar any day.  HP bar just seems really easy mode to me.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fully support the idea. Show just broken or blody armor if a person is low. No HP bar. No guild name, just a banner or color. Scouts could get acess to some of these thought.


Mercenary guild is recruiting. Send me a message if you are interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like it. Please show as little information about the target as possible. No healthbar, no name, no faction.

If someone wants to show his faction, he can always wear a uniform.

And maybe, If you know someone very well or are in his group, you might get further information. But if you see someone for the first time, you should know nothing about him.

 

Sounds like CoE somehow. But would be great in CF, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with HP bars.  In fact, one of the few good things that came out of D&D 4th edition was the idea/mechanic of "bloodied".  When an enemy was half health or lower, he would be visibly "bloodied" and the players would know he was severely injured.  I think it would be cool to have a basic battle damage graphic that showed on players half health or lower as indicator of them being wounded with no other indicator of their HPs available.  AC2 had something like this (well, not bloodied exactly, but battle damage), which I thought was a good idea, but not other games have picked up on it.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm worried more about funism than realism and to me it's just a slightly different approach to what you emphasize in combat.  But I mean in fighting you don't always know how damaged your opponent really is either unless you look for tells in their behavior.  For me the player behavior and learning to understand those tells is important and in some ways similar to seeing blood or damage visually anyway. 

 

I guess for me it's just cooler in video games to fight people and try to beat them based on how they are behaving and reading that, instead of anything the game could offer up visually. 

 

That being said, I would take visual damage on the doll over an hp bar any day.  HP bar just seems really easy mode to me.

 

It's more interesting to me to see the ebb and flow of group combat ripple back and forth based on intuitive feedback about surroundings.  It is less fun to me to have the game camoflage basic environmentals, which, in this case, revolves around how hurt an opponent is.  Thus, certainly in group combat, you see hurt opponents prioritized (usually, by experienced players, situation permitting).  Or, hurt players acting as decoys / bunny-rabbits suckering button-mashers into following them . . . into an ambush.  Or Rogues prioritizing targets out of stealth based on their available HP.

 

It's less fun (to me) to have the game blanket that in an artificial screen of camoflage.

 

"Conduct" of players is only a 50% answer here.  Because a players conduct AND their physical condition is the entire equation.  My prediction/anticipation algorithm is going to process a different outcome/reason for a perfectly healthy player deciding to run off (e.g. Why?  What's the dude up to?) versus someone about dead (simply retreating to the back lines to recover & stay alive).

 

"Realizm" is not at odds with "Funism".  In this case it's simply intuitive and natural to have some kind of view of the damage state of a player, because we, as human animals, naturally expect to see that.  If the context here is combat and everything that comes with it.

 

Just a different point of view.  And the fact I dislike UI's hiding obvious visual cues that are appropriate.  Again, in this particular case I clearly see HP bars as the visual analog to massive physical trauma to the character model from combat.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also I think not knowing what guild someone is in unless they want to show their guild with a tabard or something would be really beneficial to the social element in these games.

 

Intel should become an extremely valuable resource and players should have to figure out where another player's loyalties lie and all the allegiances and politics without the game just telling them a lot of it for free.

 

I agree with the tabard idea and hiding guilds and other social alliances a player may have. I think only dedicated scout player should find out those information (skill and/or in-game behavior) for his teammates.

 

However, hiding the health bar is going too far IMO. as Bramble says:

 

Another way to look at it though is: Remove the health-bar and you introduce theme-parked camouflaging of the condition of a target, be it yours or anyone elses.

 

E.G.: We are visual creatures (primarily / generally). In combat you SEE how badly people are hurt by their physical condition. Amount of blood, impairment (or not) of movement, dangling (or not) arms, etc.

 

IMO I've always seen the Health Bar as the emulation of state-of-health visual feedback. Not as a case of the UI providing you with "more", or even themeparked information.

 

So, in game play we can get our legs and arms blown off (using a % of total HP) but are STILL able to run around just fine, at full speed, pew-pewing away right up until you hit The Big Zero.

 

Given that, retaining health bars as a common sense visual queue on physical condition makes sense.

 

Unless what you are suggesting is we start seeing dynamic graphics indicators (more vs less blood), movement impairments (legs or arms damaged), etc.?

 

As far as Guild Tags on display or not . . . I'm ambivalent, still thinking through that idea. While one can find some (theoretical) Pros for that in game play, there are some (theoretical) Cons IMO. Still chewing on that one.

 

And I think this is not a priority ATM. However, I could definitely see some rules allowing the HP bar not showing up anymore in certain extreme campaigns, as soon as the game is released and ACE had time to develop other visual clues (different movement animations when a character is hurt, or dying, blood / broken bones showing on the armor and / or tabard, etc).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the tabard idea and hiding guilds and other social alliances a player may have. I think only dedicated scout player should find out those information (skill and/or in-game behavior) for his teammates.

 

However, hiding the health bar is going too far IMO. as Bramble says:

 

 

And I think this is not a priority ATM. However, I could definitely see some rules allowing the HP bar not showing up anymore in certain extreme campaigns, as soon as the game is released and ACE had time to develop other visual clues (different movement animations when a character is hurt, or dying, blood / broken bones showing on the armor and / or tabard, etc).

Yea it's not a setting for everyone, I just think it would be cool to have certain settings that allowed for that.  I'm a big fan of content management systems and think it would be pretty cool to have a game built in a way where most things come on a knob and can be adjusted. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please do not do implement any of these suggestions.   If every player had an infinitely power video card and 10ms latency and the servers could handle 100s of players in 1 small area such that the 2^n graph information update processing was doable without time-dilation mechanics that EVE implements some of these may be possible.  

 

No matter how immersive any developer makes a game, it is still a game and an abstraction of reality.  If you want to make it hard fine, if you want to make it low information fine.  Just do not make if harder or with less information than what is needed to be even remotely reasonable.  The other option is to get rid of HP all together and just make hit sensitivity on different targets.  Pull off a head shot, instant death.  A sword, axe, fireball to the head would kill the target.  

 

I want to see name tags, I want to see guilds, I want to see who is being an unpleasant person.  I can then choose not to associate with that player, guild in the future.  I want to see social repercussions to people being asshats to one another.  I want to see the spy shunned, I actually want to see the player info not the character.  So that there can actually be real social repercussion to being a untrustworthy snot.


Crowfall Division Captain (The Older Gamers) <TOG> - http://www.theoldergamers.com/

Personal Website - http://www.mmo-report.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please do not do implement any of these suggestions.   If every player had an infinitely power video card and 10ms latency and the servers could handle 100s of players in 1 small area such that the 2^n graph information update processing was doable without time-dilation mechanics that EVE implements some of these may be possible.  

 

No matter how immersive any developer makes a game, it is still a game and an abstraction of reality.  If you want to make it hard fine, if you want to make it low information fine.  Just do not make if harder or with less information than what is needed to be even remotely reasonable.  The other option is to get rid of HP all together and just make hit sensitivity on different targets.  Pull off a head shot, instant death.  A sword, axe, fireball to the head would kill the target.  

 

I want to see name tags, I want to see guilds, I want to see who is being an unpleasant person.  I can then choose not to associate with that player, guild in the future.  I want to see social repercussions to people being asshats to one another.  I want to see the spy shunned, I actually want to see the player info not the character.  So that there can actually be real social repercussion to being a untrustworthy snot.

I want to see a game where you have to learn about people with your own ability instead of the game just feeding you a bunch of free information.  To me that's the kind of social gameplay that mmorpgs should strive for.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to see a game where you have to learn about people with your own ability instead of the game just feeding you a bunch of free information.  To me that's the kind of social gameplay that mmorpgs should strive for.

 

How do you learn of other people socially?  If you run into someone in the normal servers they are red to you and most likely you of they will start to fight and try to kill and take the resources of the other.  The only place where social interactions will occur with people not already your ally will be in the Eternal Kingdoms.  Since we can rename our vassals every-time they kill themselves I don't see how we can keep track of anyone without the game systems telling us who is who.

 

I see what you are saying but unless it is in a game like that is in SAO or Log Horizon the subtle details you are looking for are not technically feasible with reasonable resources. 


Crowfall Division Captain (The Older Gamers) <TOG> - http://www.theoldergamers.com/

Personal Website - http://www.mmo-report.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you learn of other people socially?  If you run into someone in the normal servers they are red to you and most likely you of they will start to fight and try to kill and take the resources of the other.  The only place where social interactions will occur with people not already your ally will be in the Eternal Kingdoms.  Since we can rename our vassals every-time they kill themselves I don't see how we can keep track of anyone without the game systems telling us who is who.

 

I see what you are saying but unless it is in a game like that is in SAO or Log Horizon the subtle details you are looking for are not technically feasible with reasonable resources. 

Not all guilds operate under KoS, it would be your job to figure out who is dangerous and who is not through interaction. 

 

You don't need any extra resources, you just need to be able to turn the hand-holdy free information off.  Then let players figure things out for themselves.

 

Some servers would turn into bloodbaths, others might get off to the races with a less hostile approach where people that are generally hostile would develop bad reputations that spread by word of mouth and those players may end up becoming ostracized for their behavior.

 

The learning should be organic though, it shouldn't be the game just freely telling you stuff so you magically know, unless the player wants to make that information visible with a tabard or other way of showing who they are affiliated with.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea it's not a setting for everyone, I just think it would be cool to have certain settings that allowed for that.  I'm a big fan of content management systems and think it would be pretty cool to have a game built in a way where most things come on a knob and can be adjusted. 

So make it a ruleset  ;)  :)


Mercenary guild is recruiting. Send me a message if you are interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about the whole campaign concept is that they can try this sort of thing a few times to see how it goes. And even if it's not amazingly popular keep one or two smaller campaigns with it around for the folks that prefer it But on a game wide scale: Not seeing guilds isn't a big deal, As long as you can tell Order/neutral/chaos, or what god they're fighting for I couldn't care less about their guild affiliations. Health though is another matter, in general you need to have some idea what someone's health is, and it doesn't make sense that if my character would logically see the half dozen arrows sticking out of someones armor or limbs that I can't tell if they are fresh or not. A sort of fractional system might be interesting, where you can at a default an indicator for every say, 1/5 of life, with maybe some skills or disciplines that let you see more granular bars or obscure your own bar. Even add disciplines that let you fake damage to make it look like someone hit you harder than they did or cover for your weakness, leading to a game of fake outs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So make it a ruleset  ;)  :)

Exactly

 

The great thing about the whole campaign concept is that they can try this sort of thing a few times to see how it goes. And even if it's not amazingly popular keep one or two smaller campaigns with it around for the folks that prefer it But on a game wide scale: Not seeing guilds isn't a big deal, As long as you can tell Order/neutral/chaos, or what god they're fighting for I couldn't care less about their guild affiliations. Health though is another matter, in general you need to have some idea what someone's health is, and it doesn't make sense that if my character would logically see the half dozen arrows sticking out of someones armor or limbs that I can't tell if they are fresh or not. A sort of fractional system might be interesting, where you can at a default an indicator for every say, 1/5 of life, with maybe some skills or disciplines that let you see more granular bars or obscure your own bar. Even add disciplines that let you fake damage to make it look like someone hit you harder than they did or cover for your weakness, leading to a game of fake outs.

Yep, I don't think it should be forced on the entire service, just maybe 1 or 2 campaigns to try it out. 

 

To me it's similar to playing poker.  Whereas if a game gives you too much information it's like playing poker against people where you can see their cards.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...