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Riotyn

SKILL REALLOCATION?

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I don't think respecs are a necessary component of the game. EVE Online, the most popular touchstone for this debate, has gotten on just fine for years without any way to respec despite this exact debate raging since day one.

 

 

 

Ummmm, no. 

 

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/207605005-Skill-Extractors-and-Skill-Injectors

 

It's a bit different, but it has the same basic idea behind it.

 

Respecing is terrible. Especially if nothing is mutually exclusive. Just spend a month or two being sub-par.

Well it's more like a year or two, but whats another 10 - 22 months to wait to have fun?  

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Ummmm, no. 

 

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/207605005-Skill-Extractors-and-Skill-Injectors

 

It's a bit different, but it has the same basic idea behind it.

 

Well it's more like a year or two, but whats another 10 - 22 months to wait to have fun?  

As usual pulling numbers out of current state of Pre-alpha when we've been told the numbers will change doesn't really make for a good argument. Besides thats also ignoring the "shallow power curve" they've talked about. So even if the actual skill leveling takes some you won't be at some great disadvantage. So basically saying " you'll suck for two years" isn't at all accurate and not a valid argument based on the facts we know at this point.

 

Played SWG when it had a skill system and when wanted to change profession yes you had to re-skill the new profession. Now granted a lot or most of professions could be scripted and macro'd to lvl up while you were afk but that was more a flaw in allowing such automation not the actual skill system itself.

 

At most i'd think "catch up" mechanics have a place in this system but as said traditional "respecs" where you just re-spend points doesn't really fit at all with this type of system.

Edited by pang

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As usual pulling numbers out of current state of Pre-alpha when we've been told the numbers will change doesn't really make for a good argument. Besides thats also ignoring the "shallow power curve" they've talked about. So even if the actual skill leveling takes some you won't be at some great disadvantage. So basically saying " you'll suck for two years" isn't at all accurate and not a valid argument based on the facts we know at this point.

 

Played SWG when it had a skill system and when wanted to change profession yes you had to re-skill the new profession. Now granted a lot or most of professions could be scripted and macro'd to lvl up while you were afk but that was more a flaw in allowing such automation not the actual skill system itself.

 

At most i'd think "catch up" mechanics have a place in this system but as said traditional "respecs" where you just re-spend points doesn't really fit at all with this type of system.

Combat != universal skills.  Only combat has a shallow curve and isn't the time frame I'm talking about.

 

Fine, the numbers in pre-alpha are wonky.  So are you expecting that non-combat train times will suddenly get a 10 fold bump in speed, because that's what it would take for the "month or two" that Vonpenguin was talking about.

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I personally don't support skill respec. Not in this game anyway, because it doesn't make sense. An example somebody gave was along the lines of "if you get sick of crafting, you should be able to switch to something else". Well yes you can, just stop training the crafting skills and start training other skills. Then you can make yourself more of a jack of all trades master of none type. 

 

It doesn't make sense to be able to master everything that quickly. There are other games that allow that (some of which I play) but it makes no sense in this game.

 

Edit: The example from EVE I would be fine with, because it doesn't allow you to just do a full respec. There is a mininum that you cannot untrain and there is also diminishing returns. So suppose you're a player that has spent 365 days training in gathering related stuff, then suddenly you decide you want to do combat instead. You could untrain 30 days worth of gathering training to get 10 days worth of training in combat with a net loss of 20 days, or you could just switch things over to combat and wait 10 days. That I am perfectly fine with. Any sort of cost associated with it, needs to be a cost in skill training days. Material costs for a respec is far too cheap especially if it's a full respec. Real money costs is also undesirable because it's not paying for convenience, you are literally paying to gain a statistical advantage.

Edited by Luthair

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Combat != universal skills.  Only combat has a shallow curve and isn't the time frame I'm talking about.

 

Fine, the numbers in pre-alpha are wonky.  So are you expecting that non-combat train times will suddenly get a 10 fold bump in speed, because that's what it would take for the "month or two" that Vonpenguin was talking about.

If the time is what you are concerned about then should be in favor of catch up/speed up mechanics not outright instant re-spending and training of new skills.

 

Again seems like another eat your cake and have it too situation. The game has a passive time based skill system, so how does pretty much bypassing that system make sense here?  "Well I trained 6 Months in Harvesting therefor I should just be able to re-spend that in an entirely different field" :huh:

Edited by pang

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If the time is what you are concerned about then should be in favor of catch up/speed up mechanics not outright instant re-spending and training of new skills.

 

Again seems like another eat your cake and have it too situation. The game has a passive time based skill system, so how does pretty much bypassing that system make sense here?  "Well I trained 6 Months in Harvesting therefor I should just be able to re-spend that in an entirely different field" :huh:

 

Actually, what I am in favor of is Universal skills being picked and set on the way into a campaign, in the same way you pick faction and gods.

 

Why is the passive universal time based skill system, the only system in the game subject to account and time restriction?  

 

Screw up a vessel or any other piece of equipment, get an new one built.

Screw up a campaign and lose, drop out of it immediately and take a chance in the next world.

Want to switch which faction, or god you fight for world to world, go right ahead.

Want to try a different archetype, the combat curve is shallow, go right ahead.

 

But spec into a profession for a year that you turn out to not like or grow tired of, and suddenly its "not fitting with the game" to get a shot at another one in a reasonable time? I'd be willing to say the only thing not fitting with the game is the locked in nature of the passive system.  Everything else is replaceable/changeable, including where you place your buildings, even if they are in someone else's EK, even if they are replaceable with materials from playing.

 

It is literally the only system that locks you in/out, and what it locks you in/out of is make or break for your experience.

 

Besides, I already know a way to dodge the restrictions, it's trivial, and personally, I am more than happy to pay to win in that regard.  All I have to do is drop another 60$ per profession when the game officially starts, and just start the training then, which is exactly what I will do if it makes it to that point unchanged.

 

So in the end I will get to do everything I want, have my cake and eat it too as it were, it will just cost me some up front money to make that happen. Heck I may even be able to convert some of the things in my package now into the additional accounts. 

 

What is it called again when people can pay money to get an advantage you can't get without paying money?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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*snip for brevity*

 

The biggest problem in your analogy is that you lose time in each of those cases, which is how it should be. You experimented with something, found out you didn't like it, you're not locked to it, but you have lost time. A full respec that costs only resources/real money is far too cheap. As I said the EVE system is fine because there is a cost in time.

 

Also if it takes you a full year or more to decide that you don't like the way a specific profession plays, don't you think that's kinda on you? In all the games that I have played whether MMO or single player, I generally can get a good idea on whether or not I like the playstyle of a particular class/profession within a couple days of playing with it.

Edited by Luthair

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The biggest problem in your analogy is that you lose time in each of those cases, which is how it should be. You experimented with something, found out you didn't like it, you're not locked to it, but you have lost time. A full respec that costs only resources/real money is far too cheap. As I said the EVE system is fine because there is a cost in time.

 

Also if it takes you a full year or more to decide that you don't like the way a specific profession plays, don't you think that's kinda on you? In all the games that I have played whether MMO or single player, I generally can get a good idea on whether or not I like the playstyle of a particular class/profession within a couple days of playing with it.

This.

 

Nothing gets locked. Thats why respecs don't fit. In games where training or spending points in a particular tree locks you in to that tree then respecs are needed. But again thats not the type of system being made here.

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The Axis and Allies comparison was nearly perfect.  Perhaps Risk helps:  rewatch the video at https://www.crowfall.com/.  "A strategy game inherently has to have a chance to restart, or the game simply doesn't work.  It stops being fun."  - J Todd Coleman

 


---


 

We're not suggesting giving out free skill points or complete tree mastery.  Players still earn whatever they earn. 

 

We're not breaking Crowfall design or pre-established realism.  Call respecs "Crow Points" if it helps.

 

---

 

With respecs, PvP overall and player exposure to game options improve.

 

Both the new player and veteran theorycrafter experience improve.  You can jump in and enjoy, or analyze & revise.  Decisions still have consequences, just not excessive ones.  

 

The only players who might obviously lose are the select few who successfully game early imbalances or insist on the classic, monotonous RPG character.   IMO, both are fine but far more clearly against Crowfall game principles than what we are suggesting here. 

 

---

 

Think back to Risk.  What if devs change both the rules and the board?  Do we want players restricted to starting every single game in Asia?  How does allowing changes to only part of your starting position lead to ideal competition?  What if, during guild and economy development, everyone puts their men on Myrmidonistan, your own starting point?  

 

---

 

There are other, very real issues to sort out with VIP and monetization, but they're all solvable in different ways.

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In all the games that I have played whether MMO or single player, I generally can get a good idea on whether or not I like the playstyle of a particular class/profession within a couple days of playing with it.

 

I get an idea before I play, then a revised idea in the first couple of days, then a revised idea when I've mastered the system, then a revised idea when I've mastered PvP play with other masters.

 

Then I move on to trying other playstyles and game elements, for variety and to test the boundaries.

 

Then the devs inevitably revise something major, and I do it all over again.  Particularly if they provide respecs.

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The biggest problem in your analogy is that you lose time in each of those cases, which is how it should be. You experimented with something, found out you didn't like it, you're not locked to it, but you have lost time. A full respec that costs only resources/real money is far too cheap. As I said the EVE system is fine because there is a cost in time.

 

Also if it takes you a full year or more to decide that you don't like the way a specific profession plays, don't you think that's kinda on you? In all the games that I have played whether MMO or single player, I generally can get a good idea on whether or not I like the playstyle of a particular class/profession within a couple days of playing with it.

What analogy, and what time? If I play a game of Axis and Allies, and don't like playing the Japanese, I don't have to start on turn three the next time I play because I switched.

 

If I experiment on something, the time I took to experiment on it is what I lost. It's already cost me. Taking 6-8 month MINIMUM before even getting tolerable in the role, is something that many people will just give up on the game if they screw up the first time, and find themselves with a choice "Do I try again and maybe not like it, or just play a different game?"

 

On the "takes a year or more" comment, maybe I did like it, for a year.  It's now a year in, I'm tired of harvesting, but I am useless at everything else, so what, I play gimped for another six months before I get good at a second profession? That right there is one of the biggest drawbacks of classic leveling MMO's.  If you start late, you are always late.  Yes there are catch up mechanics, and yes they help, and yes I fully expect Future Todd and Future Blair to figure something out along those lines to alleviate the problem then. 

 

But tell me honestly.  Does it not sound more FUN, to enter a campaign for the first time, after your third campaign of being a harvester, you switch game play styles and try being the siege master?

 

I want Crowfall to succeed, far more that I want it to adhere to some sort of ideology that is inadvertently designed in such a way as to make the game less fun.

 

They ran away from the classic character, they changed the meaning of persistent worlds, why would they not consider taking a shot at altering how leveling and training is handled in a new a novel way different from a classic like EVE?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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My initial thought was to be against respec, except for when big changes are made to the system.  There have been some very valid arguments made for both sides so now I'm a bit more on the fence.  In respect to Eve Online, they did offer a partial respect when they made changes to their skill system.  When they removed the Learning skills, which pretty much every character had, they credited that experience to you and let you allocate it anywhere you want.  The skill extractors that they're now implementing I don't think is a good comparison, as it's more about people with very old accounts trading or selling portions of their experience to other characters; which is an interesting concept for a game as old as Eve, but doesn't make any sense for a new game in development.

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Ummmm, no. 

 

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/207605005-Skill-Extractors-and-Skill-Injectors

 

It's a bit different, but it has the same basic idea behind it.

 

Well it's more like a year or two, but whats another 10 - 22 months to wait to have fun?  

I'm already at the start of two crafting trees and two gathering trees, and skills haven't even been up for a full 6 months yet. A year is a pretty extreme estimate for how long it would take to be able to enter into a new career. Unless you are a victory at all cost player, but in that case I think the dev's should spite such players on principal. It's not like you are being that seriously hurt because everyone is probably going to want some crafting or gathering to do some repairs or if it comes up as an easy opportunity. They just won't be "optimal", which is something the devs said they didn't necessarily want to cater to anyway.

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*snip for brevity*

 

this analogy:

 

Screw up a vessel or any other piece of equipment, get an new one built.

Screw up a campaign and lose, drop out of it immediately and take a chance in the next world.

Want to switch which faction, or god you fight for world to world, go right ahead.

Want to try a different archetype, the combat curve is shallow, go right ahead.

 

Why are you assuming it will take a year to fully master a class? Pretty sure they already said it was going to take several months for each archetype. Also, why are you thinking that an archetype is only going to be tolerable once you fully master it? A lot of what you're saying makes no sense. You're not gimped if you focus on harvesting for a year then decide to switch, because unlike other people who focused on combat from the start, you've really gotten good at gathering resources, which means you can likely trade those for a lot of currency, which means you can get better equipment, there's quite a lot of other variables in play there. You're seeing everything like it's a 1v1 situation between you and everyone and it won't be. And this game won't be balanced for 1v1 anyway.

Edited by Luthair

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I'm already at the start of two crafting trees and two gathering trees, and skills haven't even been up for a full 6 months yet. A year is a pretty extreme estimate for how long it would take to be able to enter into a new career. Unless you are a victory at all cost player, but in that case I think the dev's should spite such players on principal. It's not like you are being that seriously hurt because everyone is probably going to want some crafting or gathering to do some repairs or if it comes up as an easy opportunity. They just won't be "optimal", which is something the devs said they didn't necessarily want to cater to anyway.

 

 

this analogy:

 

Screw up a vessel or any other piece of equipment, get an new one built.

Screw up a campaign and lose, drop out of it immediately and take a chance in the next world.

Want to switch which faction, or god you fight for world to world, go right ahead.

Want to try a different archetype, the combat curve is shallow, go right ahead.

 

Why are you assuming it will take a year to fully master a class? Pretty sure they already said it was going to take several months for each archetype. Also, why are you thinking that an archetype is only going to be tolerable once you fully master it? A lot of what you're saying makes no sense. You're not gimped if you focus on harvesting for a year then decide to switch, because unlike other people who focused on combat from the start, you've really gotten good at gathering resources, which means you can likely trade those for a lot of currency, which means you can get better equipment, there's quite a lot of other variables in play there. You're seeing everything like it's a 1v1 situation between you and everyone and it won't be. And this game won't be balanced for 1v1 anyway.

 

 

First because I did the math.  If your so sure that the training pace is tolerable, go ahead and stop using the pots when you work the lines you have already trained.  Tell me how that goes for you, because when I tried that it was not exactly what I would consider viable production, to even keep myself supported in materials, let alone cover other players who I would be expected to supply because they chose another profession.

 

Second, I am not talking about archetype training.  Quite frankly archetype training is one of the least of my concerns.  It's the universal training that actually unlocks different game play types that I am talking about.

 

Unless they either 

 

A) Dramatically increase the training speed.

B) Dramatically decrease the tiers per node

 

It will take over 400 days to get in the ore line where the pots get us today, if that is the ONLY thing you train.

 

Your welcome to do the math yourself and prove me wrong, but at least do that before asking a question you could answer if all you did was count.

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I want respecs at the end of each campaign, but no respeccing while in a campaign.

 

I think this passive training system as it is now has much worse cons than it does pros. 

 

I think the game might as well adopt a diablo ladder type approach and just let people have deep character building but let it reset each campaign, let people try to project the meta and then learn and go at it again.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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First because I did the math.  If your so sure that the training pace is tolerable, go ahead and stop using the pots when you work the lines you have already trained.  Tell me how that goes for you, because when I tried that it was not exactly what I would consider viable production, to even keep myself supported in materials, let alone cover other players who I would be expected to supply because they chose another profession.

 

Second, I am not talking about archetype training.  Quite frankly archetype training is one of the least of my concerns.  It's the universal training that actually unlocks different game play types that I am talking about.

 

Unless they either 

 

A) Dramatically increase the training speed.

B) Dramatically decrease the tiers per node

 

It will take over 400 days to get in the ore line where the pots get us today, if that is the ONLY thing you train.

 

Your welcome to do the math yourself and prove me wrong, but at least do that before asking a question you could answer if all you did was count.

We're in alpha testing. Balancing hasn't come yet. We're still pretty far off from any sort of actual balancing, so all of the numbers you see in game are pretty much guaranteed to change... time to train, how much you get from training, resources gathered, resources required to craft, etc etc. None of that is balanced or final. 


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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