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On the Horizon: Combat disciplines - Official discussion thread

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Just now, mctan said:

But we are talking about vessels, not crows. So yes, you cannot just jump to another AT, but you can change your AT build relatively quickly.

 

Correct but if you lack any training around what you want to try, it could take a good while before you are able to even think about it. 


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Just now, Phylor the Jester said:

 

Correct but if you lack any training around what you want to try, it could take a good while before you are able to even think about it. 

I suppose it is possible, but since passive is meant to be like leveling, and not for character differentiation, maybe frequently you'll be close enough? Sorry, feels like I am speculating quite a bit. There are definitely major differences in the SB comparison.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Just now, mctan said:

I suppose it is possible, but since passive is meant to be like leveling, and not for character differentiation, maybe frequently you'll be close enough? Sorry, feels like I am speculating quite a bit. There are definitely major differences in the SB comparison.

Yeah, I'm speculating on a lot as well. It is just a concern because one of my favorite portions of SB was character creation. I'm pretty excited about the system overall but I still am not a huge fan of the passive training system.


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1 minute ago, Phylor the Jester said:

Yeah, I'm speculating on a lot as well. It is just a concern because one of my favorite portions of SB was character creation. I'm pretty excited about the system overall but I still am not a huge fan of the passive training system.

Seems like there is definitely a ton more differentiation, but there is a level of consequence not found in SB.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I am pretty much happy with the Discipline runes first iteration.

The hot swappable has been addressed. Once applied they are gone. Im with it. 

The weapon rune has addressed my worry about different weapons for different archetypes and the willingness to add animations. 

The change in dynamic seems to be there, hopefully it will be enough.

 

However, my only concern is breaking these up in to type may not be the way to go. Since the main one is the middle discipline rune, the other are sorta...extra flavor that are minor adjustments. So your build becomes the archetype and then the middle rune, with minor adjustments around it with the weapon slot and the minor slot.

 

My alternative suggestion is this:

Instead, give the runes a value points and then give each archetype max number of points. In this way, to tune balances you can increase/decrease points on individual runes AND archetypes themselves, even going further, on the promotion classes as well. Then you also have the option to completely remove the number of rune restrictions. Additionally, you can add extra points to skill trees somewhere to enhance your characters customization indirectly. 

This this way its possible to only focus on minor runes but end up with much more runes overall. So if you like the base archetype so much you can give him a bunch of small buffs to make his baseline so much stronger instead of trying to change his dynamic. 

It all depends on how you assign your points.

Edited by Vectious

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1 minute ago, Vectious said:

However, my own concern is breaking these up in to type may not be the way to go. Since the main one is the middle discipline rune, the other are sorta...extra flavor that are minor adjustments. So your build becomes the archetype and then the middle rune, with minor adjustments around it with the weapon slot and the minor slot.

 

My alternative suggestion is this:

Instead, give the runes a value points and then give each archetype max number of points. In this way, to tune balances you can increase/decrease points on individual runes. Then you also have the option to completely remove the number of rune restrictions. Additionally, you can add extra points to skill trees somewhere to enhance your characters customization indirectly. 

This this way its possible to only focus on minor runes but end up with much more runes overall. So if you like the base archetype so much you can give him a bunch of small buffs to make his baseline so much stronger instead of trying to change his dynamic. 

It all depends on how you assign your points.

 

Shadowbane kind of did both since some mastery and discs did consume stat points while stat runes definitely consumed stat points. I think your point system would be pretty cool though. Could almost be something added in a later pass at the system too.

I don't think the type classification is a completely bad option either but the point system would feel more like you were making an important choice about your vessel. I always like stat allocation.


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2 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

My reasoning is that I feel like the lack of character differentiation (making meaningful choices that guide how your play your character and how effective they can be), is currently the most critical thing missing from our play experience.

.....

I'm sure we can come up with more cool stuff later for promotion classes.  It could be as simply as unlocking a few additional archetype powers, attr/skill max increases, or even adding more discipline slots... frankly, after we get this system in, we'll see where THIS design is lacking and that will probably influence what we do with Promotions.

Todd

ACE

 

@jtoddcoleman I know in the past you have commented that ACE had insufficient resources to do the deep character customization from SB. The skill system we've seen was superficial at best.

It is thrilling and to see that ACE recognized the importance of this issue. The system laid out by Blair appears to be a giant leap in the right direction.

Thank you for continuing to strive to reach the full potential of the Crowfall vision and honoring the trust of your backers.

Great stuff JTC, Blair and the rest of ACE.

Edited by angelmar

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4 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

...they should be a subset of the functionality that we are building to support Disciplines.  Once disciplines are in, we'll need to take a pass over that GDD (and the A/D list) to see what changes will be required.  but I don't expect that system to be as strongly impacted as Promotions will likely be.

Care to elaborate? Any mention of Promotions causes me to double-take. 

If I read between the lines enough, I get a migraine, but I believe you are saying that Promotions will cause more disruption/difficulty in implementation. Is this because Disciplines might add powers or passives, but Promotions might alter an archetypes Role and function on the battlefield?

The reveal on Major Disciplines felt like a level or two above what I was expecting in terms of character customization, but this sounds like you intend for Promotions to be an order of magnitude above this?


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2 minutes ago, scree said:

Care to elaborate? Any mention of Promotions causes me to double-take. 

If I read between the lines enough, I get a migraine, but I believe you are saying that Promotions will cause more disruption/difficulty in implementation. Is this because Disciplines might add powers or passives, but Promotions might alter an archetypes Role and function on the battlefield?

The reveal on Major Disciplines felt like a level or two above what I was expecting in terms of character customization, but this sounds like you intend for Promotions to be an order of magnitude above this?

go back and read my previous reply in this thread about promotions, it will make more sense.

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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4 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

 

Of course they are legitimate questions!  Absolutely. but they are also secondary concerns, our focus right now needs to making the base game as solid as possible, right?  Once we have a solid base to work from, we can always add mechanics to increase longevity and retention.  

(and fwiw, the sheer depth of the character advancement system with classes/traits/disciplines/etc in SB allowed allowed for a HUGE degree of experimentation, which itself became a big driver of replayability.  You'd build a character and be pretty happy with him -- until you saw a combination someone else did, and it made you think that maybe your current guy would be just a little bit cooler if you have taken X instead of Y...)

Todd

ACE

Oh please I hope we have that level of depth eventually.  I loved that about SB.  The disciplines are already creating much more depth in character uniqueness and it's awesome.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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19 minutes ago, jtoddcoleman said:

go back and read my previous reply in this thread about promotions, it will make more sense.

Todd

ACE

My apologies, got through the first 3 pages and stopped halfway through as the question occurred to me. 

Here's one I didn't see answered (I promise I looked);

It seems as if any mentions to a training system related to disciplines was left out. I'd imagine this doesn't mean one does not exist, but merely you haven't begun working on it? Or are we to believe that unlocking a discipline and equipping the power makes you immediately a master at using it?

Is there any crossover here from having trained skills impacting equipped disciplines and their corresponding passives/active powers? I.E: Can my druid vessel, equip a confessor-like/inspired Discipline, yet benefit from Confessor skill tree training when playing on the druid vessel? 

If cross-overs with the existing skill tree are not a thing, do you foresee or desire to implement a separate training system for these?

Edited by scree

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On an aside, I actually like this disregard for Promotions at this stage. The disciplines are where the big customization and min-maxing aspect of the game seemingly were coming from.

I'd imagine that creating archetype-specific Promotion-Runestones could be a cool way to alter the promotion system, but work within the existing framework of disciplines. 

The only downside to this approach would be that the ultimate aspect (to me) of a promotion altering an archetypes "role" would be made that much more difficult. I like the idea of certain archetypes giving up and sacrificing one of their strengths to become something wholly different; in effect, creating another major customization and theorycrafting angle for players (increasing that Shadowbane-like experimentation aspect to the game another order of magnitude). I would love to see a Duelist who could give up stealth tray to become a parrying-counter-attack type Tank role. Or a druid who could give up healing to gain access to a second DPS tray of powers (or enhance the existing DPS powers).

It was THIS aspect of promotions that had me most intrigued, and I'd imagine this could be accomplished in any number of ways without overlapping the expanded discipline system.

Edited by scree

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23 hours ago, Handies said:

I'm not sure how I feel about the crafting of Discs.I feel like putting them on named mobs like in SB would have been the better choice. This would create hotspots.

You have to obtain the thralls for major discs...  crafting components will come from MOBs, maybe from tougher ones that are on farming status 24/7 ala Commander drop giving you your wish...

 


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20 hours ago, thomasblair said:

An expensive disc is like one for the Druid where we decided to give her a shield. 

 

 

Inc Priest tank...   Druid, Sheildmaiden, Friar...  Legendary Con, Conx4 Vessel...  Max stam, plate build.

 


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46 minutes ago, scree said:

My apologies, got through the first 3 pages and stopped halfway through as the question occurred to me. 

Here's one I didn't see answered (I promise I looked);

It seems as if any mentions to a training system related to disciplines was left out. I'd imagine this doesn't mean one does not exist, but merely you haven't begun working on it? Or are we to believe that unlocking a discipline and equipping the power makes you immediately a master at using it?

Is there any crossover here from having trained skills impacting equipped disciplines and their corresponding passives/active powers? I.E: Can my druid vessel, equip a confessor-like/inspired Discipline, yet benefit from Confessor skill tree training when playing on the druid vessel? 

If cross-overs with the existing skill tree are not a thing, do you foresee or desire to implement a separate training system for these?

 

aha!  now that IS a good question, made even better because (as noted) it hasn't been asked before. ;p

The answer is: we largely disconnected this system from passive training, on purpose.  Training still AFFECTS your disciplines, because your Discipline powers will derive their effectiveness from your underlying stats (which are driven by skills) but you don't need to "invest" in Disciplines to use them in the same way that you invest in archetypes or universal skills.

Why would we do that?

Going back to my SB reference above, what was cool about that system was the ability to try out different options relatively quickly (not minutes, but hours and days -- very different than passive training, which is days/months.)  Requiring a days/months "investment" would work against the cycle of experimentation and exploration we want from this system. Additionally, the nature of experimentation requires that some experiments fail, and if you lost passive training time as a result, that would be really annoying.  Losing the time that you spent actually doing the experiment is fine, IMO, because that's a variable (and discretionary) cost.  Passive Training is a sunk cost, and the experiment would put you behind other people who didn't experiement... which would be a huge disincentive to experiment.  

This system should focus on 1) theorycrafting what combinations might be awesome 2) the collection game, which touches a ton of in-game activities (exploring, harvesting, crafting, thrall hunting, etc), and then 3) putting those theories to the test, and adjusting your strategy after you see how well they turn out.

To answer your question about archetype cross-training: Blair and I discussed some light cross-over of archetype skills (i.e. "because I have invested in Ranger archery-related skills, do I get some benefit with other characters when using the Archery discipline?") and we decided not to go down that path. It wouldn't be impossible to add it later (I suppose) but honestly I think the system will have enough complexity and depth without it.

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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Just now, Tinnis said:

@jtoddcoleman

Any updates on how you will be handling and reintroducing Enchantment crafting and thoughts on the extents / options that will be explored there?

Also a pretty nifty customisation option!

that's pretty far off topic.  this isn't a reddit AMA! 

(nice try, though!)

Todd

 


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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5 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

@jtoddcoleman

Any updates on how you will be handling and reintroducing Enchantment crafting and thoughts on the extents / options that will be explored there?

Also a pretty nifty customisation option!

The SB Enchanter rune sucked! Nobody wanted it! It was a paperweight! If I ever see Sss'shaass'naal the Thrall in game, I will kill it out of spite! What's next? Animator!? Good God!

Edited by armegeddon

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6 minutes ago, armegeddon said:

The SB Enchanter rune sucked! Nobody wanted it! It was a paperweight! If I ever see Sss'shaass'naal the Thrall in game, I will kill it out of spite! What's next? Animator!? Good God!

Challenge Accepted!


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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One last thing on Enchanting: will you allow enchanting on Disciplines, or is that too much customization for one system and enchanting will only he allowed on armor and weapons?


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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