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facerip

Shadowbane 2.0

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4 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

 

I've never pretended mechanical skill is the only skill out there, but shadowbane completely lacked mechanical skill, and it wasn't all that tactically relevant either.  Great video game players understand that mechanical and tactical elements enhance each other. 

What kind of living has whitera made?  He played sc2 a ton in beta and early in launch and then got completely phased out by much better players shortly after.  His mechanical skills had declined and his decision making late game was never that great in the first place. 

Shadowbane may have been enjoyable for the vision it proposed, but it had a low skill-ceiling, and I guarantee that anyone that has found success in any major competitive games since then would agree. 

I just pulled a random pro RTS player out of my butt. Would you prefer if I edited it to say Gosu? It wouldn't change my point at all. You're resorting to pedantry because you can't counter my actual argument. But just for the record WhiteRa did win a bunch of tournaments with decent sized cash prizes while I was still watching pro SC2. I'm guessing nobody has ever paid you $5500 for one weekend of playing WoW.

Edited by Pixelmancer

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6 minutes ago, Pixelmancer said:

I just pulled a random pro RTS player out of my butt. Would you prefer if I edited it to say Gosu? It wouldn't change my point at all. You're resorting to pedantry because you can't counter my actual argument.

Isn't that the point, you tried to name drop without any context behind the person you were namedropping.  It's not as simple as "he was in pro tournaments he must have been good".

What exactly is the argument I haven't countered?

Shadowbane had very little mechanical skill, are you trying to argue against that?

So if it lacked mechanical skill what exactly did you find skillful about it?

Do you find making decisions slowly in a game that was fairly average tactically to be enough to carry the lack of complete mechanical skill it required?

We can remember games fondly without glorifying them and pretending they were greater than they actually were.

I personally liked the character building and versatility that shadowbane tried to introduce.  Obviously the actual game itself ran poorly and lacked real triple A polish so the game was mostly left as a "what could have been" instead of "what actually was".

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Shadowbane had very little mechanical skill, are you trying to argue against that?

So if it lacked mechanical skill what exactly did you find skillful about it?

If you can't read repeating myself won't help. And like I said I can't take you seriously anymore. I'm not going to keep bickering about this.

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18 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I've never pretended mechanical skill is the only skill out there

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Man, I needed a laugh today.

I agree that SB didn't have a ton of mechanical skill required, but there was some - timing a snapshot, gauging the correct distance for a shot, and utilizing terrain to stay out of LoS for avoiding damage were all key. I would also disagree with the thought that no tactics were required, as movement, flanking, etc. were all key attributes to a fight. I can think of several fights where we attacked in echelon by design in order to have a numerically superior enemy split their forces long enough for us to eliminate their support. The game was very different once they made the correct decision to remove blue dots, which was well after the 6-ish weeks into the game that VN declared "victory" and quit, taking "all the pro players" with him, as he reiterated over and over again in the "Some Shadowbane Reminiscing" thread.

To be clear, I won't disagree with VN's concept of action combat/twitch being a skill by any means. 


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51 minutes ago, vandarr said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Man, I needed a laugh today.

I agree that SB didn't have a ton of mechanical skill required, but there was some - timing a snapshot, gauging the correct distance for a shot, and utilizing terrain to stay out of LoS for avoiding damage were all key. I would also disagree with the thought that no tactics were required, as movement, flanking, etc. were all key attributes to a fight. I can think of several fights where we attacked in echelon by design in order to have a numerically superior enemy split their forces long enough for us to eliminate their support. The game was very different once they made the correct decision to remove blue dots, which was well after the 6-ish weeks into the game that VN declared "victory" and quit, taking "all the pro players" with him, as he reiterated over and over again in the "Some Shadowbane Reminiscing" thread.

To be clear, I won't disagree with VN's concept of action combat/twitch being a skill by any means. 

Everything you name as skill in shadowbane has been present in pretty much every pvp game with much higher requirements to excel.  Shadowbane basically takes basic pvp concepts and asks you to execute them at a slow pace.

It's really quite simple and I will point it out time and time again.  There are a handful of people that excelled at shadowbane and also had the skill to excel at much more skillful pvp games.  Many of the people that thought they were good at shadowbane were unable to adapt to newer games.

Honestly, those that excelled at games with a higher skill-ceiling than shadowbane could see just how low the skill-ceiling was for that game, it's really not even something that should be debated, it just wasn't a very skillful game.  It had other great qualities and the vision was ahead of its time.  If crowfall can take the good from it without the bad (so far it does have some of the bad like a low skill-ceiling) then crowfall can make some serious waves. 

In the pantheon of pvp gaming shadowbane was a tiny blip, some people played it religiously, some people play candy crush religiously, but they shouldn't try to glorify it as something it was not.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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On 2017-6-5 at 1:27 AM, Yoink said:

Ehh for all that VN is he has sorta got a point about SB here. Shadowbane was slow slow slow. Like others have said, the majority of fights in SB were decided before you left your town's walls. TTK was fairly long and combat was more about comp counter play. Even roguebane was like this.

...

Never played Shadowbane and stumbled upon this thread by accident, but I have to say that description of SB's combat doesn't sound appealing at all to me. Fights decided before you leave town and combat revolving around comp counter play sound pretty bad to me. I've played MMOs like that before. The amount of hard counters in CF's discs did turn me off a little. I think comp building should be important, just like having good gear. Same for counter builds and comps, it also should have its place. But it shouldn't be the main focus IMO. I think strategy, tactics and individual skill should still be as important if not more at the end. 


 

 

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1 hour ago, Rikutatis said:

Never played Shadowbane and stumbled upon this thread by accident, but I have to say that description of SB's combat doesn't sound appealing at all to me. Fights decided before you leave town and combat revolving around comp counter play sound pretty bad to me. I've played MMOs like that before. The amount of hard counters in CF's discs did turn me off a little. I think comp building should be important, just like having good gear. Same for counter builds and comps, it also should have its place. But it shouldn't be the main focus IMO. I think strategy, tactics and individual skill should still be as important if not more at the end. 

Go watch shadowbane videos and you will see just how slow the combat was. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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10 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

Never played Shadowbane and stumbled upon this thread by accident, but I have to say that description of SB's combat doesn't sound appealing at all to me. Fights decided before you leave town and combat revolving around comp counter play sound pretty bad to me. I've played MMOs like that before. The amount of hard counters in CF's discs did turn me off a little. I think comp building should be important, just like having good gear. Same for counter builds and comps, it also should have its place. But it shouldn't be the main focus IMO. I think strategy, tactics and individual skill should still be as important if not more at the end. 

You do realize when Shadowbane was made, right?

Also the bolded part is inaccurate and the underlined part is absolutely fun. No idea why you think comp counterplay isn't fun.

p.s. Crowfall is already exactly that way.

Edited by coolwaters

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On 6/5/2017 at 7:15 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Everything you name as skill in shadowbane has been present in pretty much every pvp game with much higher requirements to excel.  Shadowbane basically takes basic pvp concepts and asks you to execute them at a slow pace.

It's really quite simple and I will point it out time and time again.  There are a handful of people that excelled at shadowbane and also had the skill to excel at much more skillful pvp games.  Many of the people that thought they were good at shadowbane were unable to adapt to newer games.

Honestly, those that excelled at games with a higher skill-ceiling than shadowbane could see just how low the skill-ceiling was for that game, it's really not even something that should be debated, it just wasn't a very skillful game.  It had other great qualities and the vision was ahead of its time.  If crowfall can take the good from it without the bad (so far it does have some of the bad like a low skill-ceiling) then crowfall can make some serious waves. 

In the pantheon of pvp gaming shadowbane was a tiny blip, some people played it religiously, some people play candy crush religiously, but they shouldn't try to glorify it as something it was not.

There has been no game to match the scope and scale of pvp engagements, L2 came close, but was no where in the realm of the amount of people involved in an SB war.

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On 6/5/2017 at 10:15 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Everything you name as skill in shadowbane has been present in pretty much every pvp game with much higher requirements to excel.  Shadowbane basically takes basic pvp concepts and asks you to execute them at a slow pace.

Siege craft, at its very definition, is a slowly evolving fight. As Shadowbane's core was siege warfare, doesn't that kind of fit the definition? :) 

One of the things I greatly enjoyed about SB combat, over say the WoW that you espouse so heavily, is that intelligence mattered far more than gear. You'll also note that I didn't state that other games don't need similar skills to the ones I named in SB - but it only takes a few examples of correlation to refute a NULL hypothesis.


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47 minutes ago, vandarr said:

Siege craft, at its very definition, is a slowly evolving fight. As Shadowbane's core was siege warfare, doesn't that kind of fit the definition? :) 

One of the things I greatly enjoyed about SB combat, over say the WoW that you espouse so heavily, is that intelligence mattered far more than gear. You'll also note that I didn't state that other games don't need similar skills to the ones I named in SB - but it only takes a few examples of correlation to refute a NULL hypothesis.

Gear never mattered in WoW in competitive play if you were good, everyone acquired the best gear, it was relatively easy to attain.  People tend to glorify the good old days when the new ones are not working out well for them, but shadowbane had a low skill-ceiling, on all fronts.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, facerip said:

There has been no game to match the scope and scale of pvp engagements, L2 came close, but was no where in the realm of the amount of people involved in an SB war.

I don't know about that, even in wintergrasp in wow you basically had near hourly 100+ vs 100+ fights. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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32 minutes ago, facerip said:

WG was no where near what large server wars were. 

 

Ur fake news in this forum VNN

How often did SB have 120+ vs 120+ battles?  Wintergrasp had them every other hour and each battlegroup was hosting its own wintergrasp, let alone multiple instances of it on populated battlegroups. 

I can't recall a single SB battle that was 120 vs 120, the highest I ever saw was 80 vs 140.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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6 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

How often did SB have 120+ vs 120+ battles?  Wintergrasp had them every other hour and each battlegroup was hosting its own wintergrasp, let alone multiple instances of it on populated battlegroups. 

I can't recall a single SB battle that was 120 vs 120, the highest I ever saw was 80 vs 140.

Wintergrasp is a battleground in an unrelated game.  If "120" sided battles is all you saw in shadowbane then you didn't actually play and are just spewing more fake news.  

Tell me more about conquest server war efforts and how it relates to a 2.5 hour insignificant instanced battleground.  100% LEL

Edited by facerip

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