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Shadowbane 2.0

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1 hour ago, vandarr said:

Winterblades (and others) seem to be doing ok in the beta tests thus far. Would you disagree?

Yes I would disagree, they are having trouble with even pug groups and they are begging solo gankers to not attack them. 

The advantage they have now is an active testing base, but that won't last forever.

I'm not perfect, but I'm a pretty objective and rational person. Simply put, the emotional attachment someone has to pixels they build over the course of hundreds or thousands of hours makes a fight matter more to that player than a random engagement.

Sure, but it just depends on perspective, to me winning means nothing if it didn't take much skill.

Look at paintball vs. laser tag. In the former, one hit and your game is over. In the latter, getting hit is almost meaningless, because 10 seconds later you are back in the game. There is no real advantage in taking a position when a "dead" guy can just walk up and shoot you anyway. Part of the reason SB bled pop was because people couldn't take the stress of losing a 9 hour fight and seeing all of their work destroyed. You don't see that in WoW - the closest you will see is someone quitting a guild because a multiple hour raid loot didn't get granted to them. 

This isn't always accurate, for example in competitive arena, once you got to the upper echelons you were risking losing a ton of points per loss, and gaining maybe 1/10th of that and sometimes 1/20th of that per win, which basically meant you needed an extremely high win rate to keep progressing forward.  That was hours of work and investment and the deciding factor on how it panned out was more based on skill.

 

You are trying to compare a game of rock, paper, scissors to chess and stating that chess takes no skill because it's too long of a game. Remember, WoW PvP was originally a total afterthought. The game was designed for CAREBEARS, not Gankers.

Shadowbane isn't chess though, it was tic tac toe.  Games like WoW had much more tactical depth in the actual fighting.

Also in some ways crowfall looks like it could be shadowbane 2, but not all of those ways are good, obviously if you derive meaning from fights based on investment and attachment, and crowfall is extreme in its temporary nature, that would mean you will end up being less attached to the things you lose in crowfall.

 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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My guild at the time of WoW launch, Talons of Chaos was filled with top tier SB names most would recognize from the glory days of Vengeance.  Eastre, Exarch, Rolp, Sabotage, Lotus, Kraxx, Dru2 and more that my aged brain forgets.  We played WoW for 6 weeks to two months and dominated any and all combat and it was a server so populated it had queues to log in that could stretch hours.  WoW PVP was boring, easy and pointless.   All the builds were the same, there was absolutely no consequences to to anything. 

 

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7 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

My guild at the time of WoW launch, Talons of Chaos was filled with top tier SB names most would recognize from the glory days of Vengeance.  Eastre, Exarch, Rolp, Sabotage, Lotus, Kraxx, Dru2 and more that my aged brain forgets.  We played WoW for 6 weeks to two months and dominated any and all combat and it was a server so populated it had queues to log in that could stretch hours.  WoW PVP was boring, easy and pointless.   All the builds were the same, there was absolutely no consequences to to anything. 

 

Which server do you think your guild was on?

Based on the way you frame your story it doesn't even sound like you hit level cap. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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There are a million games out right now that reward mechanical skill from your oft-mentioned WoW to all the FPS shooters to infinity.  Shadowbane we'd all of course grant didn't have that kind of mechanical skill ceiling.  SB however rewarded planning, subterfuge, treachery, relentlessness and most of all brains more than anything before or since.  Real game world consequences were the other truly defining thing about SB.  If you disgruntled off the wrong nation leader, talked smack in the forums, stole from or ganked the wrong guy there was a very real chance you as a lowly peon in your nation could bring on a huge war that resulted in your empire being burned to the ground city by city, night by night.

I think my guild burning down your repair forge and bank before the siege so that you cannot repair or get at your banked items easily is skill.      

I think my guild dropping structures on your advancing formation scattering you for easy pickoffs is skill.                      

I think getting a stealther into your pre siege rally to see what spec your guild is bringing to a fight so mine can get a counter to it is skill.  

I think making better toons that are vastly stronger as a complementary group and maybe not so much solo is skill.  

I think planning out a brilliant strategy for a siege is skill.  

I think the guild that can best get on target and stay on with the chaos of battle to win is skill.  

I think the guild that can most effectively use their collective abilities and powers to immobilize and debuff their targets is skill.  

I think the guild that can most effectively remove debuffs and CC on their own players is skill.  

I think the guild that builds the most intelligent and complementary groups is skill.  

I think the group that most effectively resource gathers and crafts their gear to maximize their group abilities is skill.

I think the group that can most effectively get their dead back to the battlefield, buffed and ready to fight the quickest is skill.

 

As long as Crowfall adequately rewards those things listed above I don't tink any SB'ers will complain.  

 

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4 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Which server do you think your guild was on?

Based on the way you frame your story it doesn't even sound like you hit level cap. 

Hi Viking, yeah we all capped in about 2 to 3 weeks.  Exarch was on the WoW wide leaderboard for the first to 60 but faded at the end and missed by a couple days.  I don't  remember for sure it's been too many years but I think illidan?

 

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5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Hi Viking, yeah we all capped in about 2 to 3 weeks.  Exarch was on the WoW wide leaderboard for the first to 60 but faded at the end and missed by a couple days.  I don't  remember for sure it's been too many years but I think illidan?

 

Oh, that's interesting, I was also on illidan with an alt in deaths imperial entourage because I knew some of them from darkenbane on rallos zek in eq1.  Never heard of talons of chaos. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Probably because you stuck with it after we conquered the game and moved on.  

But I mean I was there since launch and I don't remember a single period of your guild name ever being mentioned.  Do you perhaps have any articles that talk about your guild from that period?  I know there are many articles that talk about my guild in shadowbane from all the way back in 2003, so I am sure if you dominated in WoW there would be some articles about it from 2004/2005. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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See how silly that sounds to claim to have won WoW after only playing the sheety launch version and not being around for the changes, expansions and evolution of the game?  Your short time at SB's launch gives you zero credibility to talk expertly about a game that had many expansions, rule changes, advancements, server versions etc.

 

Edited by BraveSirRobin

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6 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

But I mean I was there since launch and I don't remember a single period of your guild name ever being mentioned. 

What in WoW was there to write about PVP wise.  We were a compact guild that dominated PVP such as there was.  It amounted to duels outside Orgrimar, ganking Allies trying to get into Blackrock spire and Kamikazeeing the alliance capitols.  We weren't a raiding guild, after we capped we ran the high level zones, dueled, raided the alliance cities etc.  There was literally zero point to Wow as a PVP game so we left.  

 

Edited by BraveSirRobin

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3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

See how silly that sounds?  Your short time at SB's launch gives you zero credibility to talk expertly about a game that had many expansions, rule changes, advance,ments, server versions etc.

 

The difference is that my guild actually dominated shadowbane utterly without any opposition, whereas you had to make up a story. 

I don't claim I am an SB expert past the mass-exodus of players, but all I can say is that shadowbane had a low mechanical and tactical skill-ceiling when it was at its most popular. 

I believe people who glorify SB often do it because of an inability to move on to newer games and find success.

Crowfall will be great for adding clarification on this matter. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I believe people who glorify SB often do it because of an inability to move on to newer games and find success.

Crowfall will be great for adding clarification on this matter. 

Well I am old and slow of reflex.  If skill is only judged by my ability to jump spin while circle strafing and keeping my reticlle centered whilst i pew pew pew I assure I will be sadly lacking.   However I was very good at the "skills" I listed above, I haven't yet played Crowfall beyond running around my EK when I first installed it but I plan too after the summer is over.

 

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4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Well I am old and slow of reflex.  If skill is only judged by my ability to jump spin while circle strafing and keeping my reticlle centered whilst i pew pew pew I assure I will be sadly lacking.   However I was very good at the "skills" I listed above, I haven't yet played Crowfall beyond running around my EK when I first installed it but I plan too after the summer is over.

 

I don't think skill should only be determined by mechanics, but it should definitely be a significant factor in the equation for video games.  Doing something correctly and quickly takes more skill than doing it correctly and slowly. 

I hope crowfall can up the skill-ceiling, right now it's too easy to land abilities to the point that the game feels more like hybrid action combat games like gw2, but with a slower pacing. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I don't think skill should only be determined by mechanics, but it should definitely be a significant factor in the equation for video games.  Doing something correctly and quickly takes more skill than doing it correctly and slowly. 

I hope crowfall can up the skill-ceiling, right now it's too easy to land abilities to the point that the game feels more like hybrid action combat games like gw2, but with a slower pacing. 

That sounds exact what the developers were aiming for. They never intended crowfall to be a first person shooter and require pin point aiming. The skill will come with understanding mechanics and utilizing them to the fullest. Disciplines have added another layer of complexity to the game which I felt was desperately needed. Hell, they never even tooted the "action combat" horn in the first place.

Will combat attract all the CS/CoD kiddies to play? custard no, but custard em anyways cause this isn't a game for them.

Edited by Helix

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3 minutes ago, Helix said:

That sounds exact what the developers were aiming for. They never intended crowfall to be a first person shooter and require pin point aiming. The skill will come with understanding mechanics and utilizing them to the fullest. Disciplines have added another layer of complexity to the game which I felt was desperately needed. Hell, they never even tooted the "action combat" horn in the first place.

Will combat attract all the CS/CoD kiddies to play? custard no, but custard em anyways cause this isn't a game for them.

But the skill-ceiling for the game now is pretty low even by mmorpg standards.  When we got their first vision of combat I already said at the bare minimum their combat would need to be sped up to WoW speed for the game to even survive.  They've sped the game up and freed up movement, that's a good first step, now they need to address the low skill-ceiling and how easy it is to land attacks in this game. 

There's a difference between fps pin point accuracy and the level of ease to hitting attacks that we have right now.  It might as well not be action combat at that point.  We've seen them gravitate towards raycasts and kind of dampen the projectile and physics they were "aiming" for initially.  Probably because of performance issues. 

I can't imagine a play2crush game in 2017 that would intentionally aim for a low skill-ceiling.  They may not need a huge amount of subs to thrive, but the reputation of the game would be tragically bad if the skill-ceiling was low.

The game will attract MMORPG players, moba players, survival game players, with social media and sites like twitch a game's reputation can be boosted or destroyed quite rapidly, and whether deserved or not, the way they've marketed the game could bite them in the butt if the skill-ceiling is too low. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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21 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

...now they need to address the low skill-ceiling and how easy it is to land attacks in this game. 

...We've seen them gravitate towards raycasts and kind of dampen the projectile and physics they were "aiming" for initially.  Probably because of performance issues

The bold part is the crux of the argument. Attacks are very easy to land right now but I have to assume it's because of performance issues that they implemented these changes. I would like to see the old 'fessor and ranger projectiles that you had to lead targets with to hit and not the raycast that we currently have but with performance and server hitching the way it is, it would be nigh impossible to land skill shots with dynamic, variable, and intermittent lag spikes and fps drops.  

I think they need to nail down consistent, smooth performance with 20+ (ideally 100+ but 20's a good start) people on screen before they tackle the skill ceiling issue.

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20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Yes I would disagree, they are having trouble with even pug groups and they are begging solo gankers to not attack them.

In 15 years, I've never seen this occur. Prove it or retract it.

20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Sure, but it just depends on perspective, to me winning means nothing if it didn't take much skill.

Carebear. Spite is reason enough. No wonder you couldn't hack it in SB.

20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

This isn't always accurate, for example in competitive arena, once you got to the upper echelons you were risking losing a ton of points per loss, and gaining maybe 1/10th of that and sometimes 1/20th of that per win, which basically meant you needed an extremely high win rate to keep progressing forward.  That was hours of work and investment and the deciding factor on how it panned out was more based on skill.

As usual, you miss the point entirely and take it back to WoW.

 

20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Shadowbane isn't chess though, it was tic tac toe.  Games like WoW had much more tactical depth in the actual fighting.

And zero strategy, which again is the point.

 

I asked you more than a year ago to post your gamer name in your "skill" games so we could see your record there. I'm still waiting. Put up or shut up, imo.

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11 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Crowfall will be great for adding clarification on this matter. 

I agree. It would be super if you could log in and fight once in a while and shut us all up.

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