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Shadowbane 2.0

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4 minutes ago, managainsttime said:

 

For some reason you insist on dodging the question, and now want to exit the conversation. Curious, no?

I'm not exiting the conversation, I am just wishing you luck in crowfall.  You seem to not have many/any accolades to your name in any competitive games, so you are relatively unproven, no?

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I'm not exiting the conversation, I am just wishing you luck in crowfall.  You seem to not have many accolades to your name in any competitive games, so you are relatively unproven, no?

Can you not read anything I said about my reputation in Shadowbane? Not to mention I was red on Ultima Online and had a reputation on the Asheron's Call "Darktide" infamous PK server. The fact that you think WoW was a competitive PvP game is hilarious but, like everything else you've written, quite telling. You're projecting with the "relatively unproven" charge.

 

So what's the name of the guild that you were in, that was also the "best guild" in the R30's nation?

Edited by managainsttime

4H4LmCE.gif

Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Just now, managainsttime said:

Can you not read anything I said about my reputation in Shadowbane? Not to mention I was red on Ultima Online and had a reputation on the Asheron's Call "Darktide" infamous PK server. The fact that you think WoW was a competitive PvP game is hilarious but, like everything else you've written, quite telling.

 

So what's the name of the guild that you were in, that was also the "best guild" in the R30's nation?

I've never heard of you on darktide.  Nor should you try to judge wow's competitive PvP considering you never achieved any high ranking in it. 

But at least you will have a chance to prove yourself in crowfall, let's see how you do!


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

I've never heard of you on darktide.  Nor should you try to judge wow's competitive PvP considering you never achieved any high ranking in it. 

But at least you will have a chance to prove yourself in crowfall, let's see how you do!

 

Dodge, dodge, dodge. The narcissistic basket case VIKINGNAIL has unraveled for all to see.


4H4LmCE.gif

Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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5 minutes ago, managainsttime said:

Can you not read anything I said about my reputation in Shadowbane? Not to mention I was red on Ultima Online and had a reputation on the Asheron's Call "Darktide" infamous PK server. The fact that you think WoW was a competitive PvP game is hilarious but, like everything else you've written, quite telling. You're projecting with the "relatively unproven" charge.

 

So what's the name of the guild that you were in, that was also the "best guild" in the R30's nation?

Managainsttime! Sup buddy uDa in the house

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8 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

remember how fun and interesting the social aspects of first generation mmorpgs were when blended with pvp politics

I remember how low skill ceiling they were.

MMORPGs are like dessert, games they could potentially play for fun.

Don't see what would stop people from having fun if they accept it for what it is.

Anything can be competitive, it is simply up to generating a reason for people to compete.  The ultimate competition in video games has involved the desire to be the best. 

So then there isn't a need to change CF as it can already be competitive?

No, my focus is on making CF a game with a respectable skill-ceiling because any competitive pvper wants to do skillful things vs other skillful players.

No matter what, someone that is highly competitive will be accepting a flawed system when playing a MMO instead of a lobby game. Competitive players should be going after the most challenging experience, MMO are not that.

How is that going to draw out the most interesting politics and stories?

MUDs had them so pretty sure any game can provide.

There is a right answer, it's what the most skillful players determine it is.

Which is subjective without context and still no universal agreement. A group saying they are the best means little if no one else agrees. This thread is a great example.

The best MMO PvPers, are used to a certain skill-ceiling, crowfall is currently well below that skill-ceiling.

What standard? Believe you've only mentioned WoW and beyond copy/paste of it's entire combat system, I don't know how ACE could up the skill ceiling to match it. It is an entirely different design. There is no "High Skill Ceiling" knob in Unity that I know of.

Right now you have people that are trying to keep that skill-ceiling low because this is the level at which they can thrive

Who? How are they actively trying to keep the ceiling low? As you don't actually say what "high skill ceiling is" I'm not sure how anyone could say they don't want it.

ACE is doing what they want regardless. Competitive gamers that have tons of games to play will just have to sit this one out.

ACE said they want a game where player skill matters.  Sure technically they never said how much they want it to matter, but when you use that in the context they did you are trying to market the game with a certain image.

What context? Skill does matter in CF and will across a wide variety of areas. The degree to which certain skills matters has never been talked about specifically and looking at everything they've done, doesn't match what you want.

Unfortunately it is looking more and more like they are making a game that will be quite soft, and this also opens them up to losing to other games attempting to fill the PvP mmo void, like CU for example.

Assuming you want an entirely different type of game. CU on paper offers no more skill than CF and potentially will be a softer game. If someone chooses one game over another based on 1 feature, oh well. No game can please everyone.

I do have a desire for it to have a skill-ceiling high enough to where good pvpers can feel good about accomplishing things in it.  It adds much more meaning to every accomplishment when it took skill to accomplish it.

What skill specifically? How can ACE specially cater to these folks? Do they need to? Is it worth the risk of displeasing others? 

 

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9 minutes ago, APE said:

 

Just because a game is an MMO doesn't mean it shouldn't have a high skill-ceiling.  Different genres offer different elements, there is nothing that says you can't have a pvp centric mmorpg with a high skill-ceiling.  It only works to enhance everything in the game, if you can get past all of the initial QQ by less skilled players who don't want to endure an environment they won't excel at. 

How are people trying to keep the skill-ceiling low?  Well we've had certain people advocate for tab-targeting, others want combat with little emphasis on mechanical skill because they can't keep up with modern MMORPG pvp speed.  We have guilds currently in the test that lack the coordination/skill/timing to handle friendly fire environments so they attempt to make friendly fire more and more gentle through multiple methods, whether by changing the behavior of the friendly fire itself, or creating larger group sizes so more of them can be immune to each other's attacks. 

ACE has a design to allow for softer rulesets, but because they have that they should also be aiming for hardcore rulesets, no reason not to appeal to more types of pvpers. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Just because a game is an MMO doesn't mean it shouldn't have a high skill-ceiling.  Different genres offer different elements, there is nothing that says you can't have a pvp centric mmorpg with a high skill-ceiling.  It only works to enhance everything in the game, if you can get past all of the initial QQ by less skilled players who don't want to endure an environment they won't excel at. 

How are people trying to keep the skill-ceiling low?  Well we've had certain people advocate for tab-targeting, others want combat with little emphasis on mechanical skill because they can't keep up with modern MMORPG pvp speed.  We have guilds currently in the test that lack the coordination/skill/timing to handle friendly fire environments so they attempt to make friendly fire more and more gentle through multiple methods, whether by changing the behavior of the friendly fire itself, or creating larger group sizes so more of them can be immune to each other's attacks. 

ACE has a design to allow for softer rulesets, but because they have that they should also be aiming for hardcore rulesets, no reason not to appeal to more types of pvpers. 

I agree that a MMO doesn't need to limit itself just because, but at the same time I don't see a need to attempt something that hasn't proven to work in the same context.

In your opinion it might enhance everything, but despite being the self proclaimed spokesperson for entire groups of people (millions of them), I don't see much support for your views. Part of this might be as they are more conceptual and not really easy to agree/disagree with. Believe most disagree with you as a persona more so than what you are commenting about.

If you gave specifics I might agree/disagree, but "Make it as good as WoW or better" is rather empty. Bickering about which game had larger fights which are irrelevant to CF seems more about epeen than actual constructive discussion to improve this game.

You're right that the design allows for multiple rulsets and even if "certain people" want FF to work a certain way, ACE will do what they want and likely provide different options. The Dregs doesn't have to be the same across all CWs. Tab targeting isn't going to happen nor have I seen this as something people care about today.

Changing the combat system be it slightly or drastically would impact all players, much different then having FF, player tags above heads, auto run, different group sizes and other knob options that will likely exist.

I see folks that are fine with CF as is or hope it will improve as it develops. Then we have you that unless you have suggestions that only slightly change things, expect ACE to drastically overall the system to please an unknown group that has done nothing to support development so far. Seems like an easy choice on their end.

Again, list some specifics. Maybe 5-10 ways they could improve the "ceiling" that doesn't include "Be like WoW" or "Standard of MMOs today" or "What real competitive players want." Take into account what they've said so far, current state of the "game," potential of tech being used, Dev team experience, etc.

Edited by APE

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22 minutes ago, APE said:

I agree that a MMO doesn't need to limit itself just because, but at the same time I don't see a need to attempt something that hasn't proven to work in the same context.

In your opinion it might enhance everything, but despite being the self proclaimed spokesperson for entire groups of people (millions of them), I don't see much support for your views. Part of this might be as they are more conceptual and not really easy to agree/disagree with. Believe most disagree with you as a persona more so than what you are commenting about.

You don't see support in this case because right now the crowfall community is not really made up of any competitive players, most competitive players don't really jump in on projects this early.  And yes, people disagree with a persona, and that is by design, because you test the objectivity of a person by whether they can address what is written vs who is writing it. 

If you gave specifics I might agree/disagree, but "Make it as good as WoW or better" is rather empty. Bickering about which game had larger fights which are irrelevant to CF seems more about epeen than actual constructive discussion to improve this game.

No, it's not really empty, for example saying that the movement needs to be at least as free as WoW is pretty easy to measure.  Crowfall at a time did not have freed up movement, it was limiting, they made it more wow-like, now it plays very similarly as far as movement goes. 

Also it isn't really bickering or epeen to talk about which game had larger fights, it is just that people that played to/stuck to shadowbane have such a distorted view on games that they somehow think their game was epic.  Even some of the more level-headed SB fanbois can attest to how slow the game was, and how crappy it performed in larger scale fights. 

If you want people to understand something first you have to break their misconceptions, and one of those misconceptions is that somehow SB had amazing large scale fights.  The performance was awful.  Tbh there are many mmorpgs that could probably field numbers 3-5x larger than SB could have and while it would be a performance nightmare, it would still be better than how SB performed.  And this is all relevant to improve crowfall, because right now crowfall is suffering some of the same issues shadowbane suffered, the inability to handle large scale fights.

You're right that the design allows for multiple rulsets and even if "certain people" want FF to work a certain way, ACE will do what they want and likely provide different options. The Dregs doesn't have to be the same across all CWs. Tab targeting isn't going to happen nor have I seen this as something people care about today.

Changing the combat system be it slightly or drastically would impact all players, much different then having FF, player tags above heads, auto run, different group sizes and other knob options that will likely exist.

I see folks that are fine with CF as is or hope it will improve as it develops. Then we have you that unless you have suggestions that only slightly change things, expect ACE to drastically overall the system to please an unknown group that has done nothing to support development so far. Seems like an easy choice on their end.

Again, list some specifics. Maybe 5-10 ways they could improve the "ceiling" that doesn't include "Be like WoW" or "Standard of MMOs today" or "What real competitive players want." Take into account what they've said so far, current state of the "game," potential of tech being used, Dev team experience, etc.

I've listed changes, it seems like you are biased and haven't really been reading them, perhaps because you don't agree with them or don't understand them, IDK.  I also don't see any request aside from original combat, which they had to overhaul, as a major shake up.  JTC has admitted that it probably wouldn't be very hard to adjust FF rules.  It wouldn't be hard for them to change loot rules per campaign, etc.  So it's weird that your biases have led you to believe that I am suggesting any drastic overhaul of anything.  If you have proof of a recent drastic overhaul I have suggested though feel free to provide it.

Here are ways they can easily improve the skill-ceiling.

1.  Allow for a full friendly fire ruleset

2.  Tighten up abilities and make them not so easy to land (they've already done this at times)

3.  Remove some of the free information to reward situational awareness. 

These aren't new suggestions, so it is simply disingenuous to claim that these suggestions aren't made and the only things being said are "be like wow".  Maybe that's just bias stepping in on objectivity's toes again, who knows.

 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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5 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You don't see support in this case because right now the crowfall community is not really made up of any competitive players, most competitive players don't really jump in on projects this early.  

Why should ACE cater to a group that isn't supporting them without proof they exist or would even play if they did make it function a particular way?

No, it's not really empty, for example saying that the movement needs to be at least as free as WoW is pretty easy to measure.  

True but this was pretty much requested by the community, not just you. I myself said they needed to make a few changes that occurred, despite some that thought it would be fine as is. Freeing up movement to be like WoW or almost all other popular MMOs is fairly simplistic.

Beyond that, WoW's system of tab target, large ability pool along with how abilities simply work, restricted builds, Arena based competitive PVP, and whatever else aren't easy to duplicate or take inspiration from.

Also it isn't really bickering or epeen to talk about which game had larger fights, it is just that people that played to/stuck to shadowbane have such a distorted view on games that they somehow think their game was epic.  Even some of the more level-headed SB fanbois can attest to how slow the game was, and how crappy it performed in larger scale fights.

The game might have been epic to them, who are you to say otherwise? I much preferred DAoC at the time, but have no need to prove which one was better as it is entirely subjective. People still play WoW despite all the hate it receives and how it ruined the genre. Fanbois and haters seems to both be sitting on respective sides of the self importance delusional fence.

If someone is unable to see the shortcomings of a product they like, oh well, you aren't going to prove or change their minds. Just bickering for the sake of bickering. Might as well be interacting with a wall.

And this is all relevant to improve crowfall, because right now crowfall is suffering some of the same issues shadowbane suffered, the inability to handle large scale fights.

This is a tech issue and either ACE will figure it out or not. Changing the skill ceiling or whatever mechanic won't increase FPS. Unless I missed your solution to improve performance?

Honestly don't have high hopes as Unity isn't looking so hot and no MMO has ever handled large scale fights "well." DAoC, WAR, WoW, Aion, DF, BDO, GW2, Rift, ESO, etc all have struggled. Some do okay, but none deliver a buttery smooth performance and doubt CF will magically do it.

I've listed changes, it seems like you are biased and haven't really been reading them, perhaps because you don't agree with them or don't understand them, IDK. 

You have ~5k comments and a few more from previous accounts. Sorry if I don't follow everything you've typed. Regardless, I've read quite a lot and responded here and there but the same holds true, I don't know what you specifically are going for that is easy for ACE to actually implement.

Really not difficult to make a small list to further a discussion constructively.

Actually do agree with some of your views/concerns, but I am my own person as well.

I believe ACE shouldn't continue changing the game one way or another that will prolong development forever. They need to make hard choices and stick with them. If they don't work, hopefully can be corrected down the line, but if not, oh well. They are the professionals and it is their product.

I'd like to see more emphasis on positioning for at least melee (maybe coming), less AOE or push and forget powers, possibly more active and skillful aiming if the game can handle it and melee were also challenged (less raycast/cone), powers in general could use more depth for strategy, actual combo system, gear system without a ton of modifiers doing background math, less vertical power gain with passive training, etc. Each of these I could go into more detail, but honestly don't believe ACE cares so is what it is. Also, none of this has anything to do with meeting WoW or modern game standards and overall, most MMOs are easy mode and why real competitive people don't use them to brag or prove themselves.

 

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6 hours ago, APE said:

 

Why should ACE cater to a group that isn't supporting them without proof they exist or would even play if they did make it function a particular way?

Because making innovative games involves risk, who are they supporting right now?  Most of the backers don't even play yet.  Are they supporting the most vocal complainers that try to get their ideas pushed in?

True but this was pretty much requested by the community, not just you. I myself said they needed to make a few changes that occurred, despite some that thought it would be fine as is. Freeing up movement to be like WoW or almost all other popular MMOs is fairly simplistic.

Beyond that, WoW's system of tab target, large ability pool along with how abilities simply work, restricted builds, Arena based competitive PVP, and whatever else aren't easy to duplicate or take inspiration from.

I think this is bias clouding objectivity.  I was pretty much the first and most outspoken about this issue from the getgo, and definitely the only one willing to compare it to WoW, because other people who have limited experience would rather just operate under the bias "OMG WOW BAD ANYTHING FROM WOW IS BAD OMG LOL WOW"

 

The game might have been epic to them, who are you to say otherwise? I much preferred DAoC at the time, but have no need to prove which one was better as it is entirely subjective. People still play WoW despite all the hate it receives and how it ruined the genre. Fanbois and haters seems to both be sitting on respective sides of the self importance delusional fence.

If someone is unable to see the shortcomings of a product they like, oh well, you aren't going to prove or change their minds. Just bickering for the sake of bickering. Might as well be interacting with a wall.

It may have been epic to them, but I played that same game when it was at its most populated, and saw exactly what it was.  Anyway if you objectively looked at the comparison being made between numbers in fights you would see that the point I was making was that WoW had turned sieges into an activity that occurred every other hour on tons of different battlegroups with larger fights than shadowbane really ever had.  120vs120 was like a stroll in the park, the battles were much higher originally.  I don't have to change their minds, but I will correct misconceptions.  I don't care if I convince people from shadowbane about anything, but I do share my thoughts, like everyone else can.  I am a perfectionist when it comes to games, if someone states something inaccurate and tries to float it as truth, I will simply address it, it takes minimal effort on my part.

 

This is a tech issue and either ACE will figure it out or not. Changing the skill ceiling or whatever mechanic won't increase FPS. Unless I missed your solution to improve performance?

Honestly don't have high hopes as Unity isn't looking so hot and no MMO has ever handled large scale fights "well." DAoC, WAR, WoW, Aion, DF, BDO, GW2, Rift, ESO, etc all have struggled. Some do okay, but none deliver a buttery smooth performance and doubt CF will magically do it.

Actually, changing the skill-ceiling will help FPS.  If you have true friendly fire, for example, then anything from small scale fights to large scale fights will have more dispersed formations.  Dispersed formations lighten the load on performance as not everything is occurring in a supercompacted area.

 

You have ~5k comments and a few more from previous accounts. Sorry if I don't follow everything you've typed. Regardless, I've read quite a lot and responded here and there but the same holds true, I don't know what you specifically are going for that is easy for ACE to actually implement.

Really not difficult to make a small list to further a discussion constructively.

Actually do agree with some of your views/concerns, but I am my own person as well.

I believe ACE shouldn't continue changing the game one way or another that will prolong development forever. They need to make hard choices and stick with them. If they don't work, hopefully can be corrected down the line, but if not, oh well. They are the professionals and it is their product.

I'd like to see more emphasis on positioning for at least melee (maybe coming), less AOE or push and forget powers, possibly more active and skillful aiming if the game can handle it and melee were also challenged (less raycast/cone), powers in general could use more depth for strategy, actual combo system, gear system without a ton of modifiers doing background math, less vertical power gain with passive training, etc. Each of these I could go into more detail, but honestly don't believe ACE cares so is what it is. Also, none of this has anything to do with meeting WoW or modern game standards and overall, most MMOs are easy mode and why real competitive people don't use them to brag or prove themselves.

This is a bit of a cop out, because you don't have to follow everything you've typed, but you yourself have literally discussed some of these issues plenty with me already, so you definitely saw some of those posts. 

If ACE's game isn't even up to the average of a modern MMO do you think it will fare well?  If for example the combat had stayed as it was?  Or movement was super restricted?  Or some of the future concerns like the ability to handle an actual MMO population on one server. 

No, it has to be concerned with what standards other MMOs have achieved, if it is subpar it will be reported as subpar, and honestly why would anyone want to make a subpar game anyway?  If this is truly a passion project I would think they would want to blow people out of the water.  They have the potential to do that, but they have to make good decisions along the way.  You talk about prolonging development forever, but they need to make the game right before pushing it out of the door.  They already had pretty big setbacks with all the things they tried to make their first version of combat work. 

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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On 3/4/2017 at 3:34 AM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Yea this game could end up being all the good from shadowbane without the low skill-ceiling from shadowbane.

@Sodapoppin or @Summit1g could claim they had skills from the old WoW days with unique raids and endless grind for gear back in 2004 which is a different game - at least very popular twitch live streamers, but what is your point VN? It`s just like an insult to majority of old guilds since the old Shadowbane or Ulitma online days since the oldest guilds were from the old UO days in `97. The game mechanic was slow with point to click to movement kind of mechanics in Shadowbane, but u still need good accurate timing & positioning with different powers and know your character very well to be a successful related to pvp in that game. I had like 9 years playing experience from SB to the start to finish hence why it`s insulting, because overall SB created a good challenge for guilds escpecially when they were outnumbered in banes or sieges in Crowfall - and the main reason why old players enjoyed that game so much and created different emulators of SB & UO.

About skills in a video game - u could say if u know the map well and have quick reflexes you`re good at Quake skills or Counter Strike - and you will also do well in games like Player Unknown`s Battlegrounds since all players start equal in the beginning and it`s an FPS game. But the charm of old mmos like Shadowbane it was an open world sandbox pvp which was player controlled and the players created their own content with guild politics and alliances with or against other players. And you don`t get such epic scale combat in a high skill ceilling games which is usually limited to 100+ players BR game modes. The high skill-ceilling games are usually a team game, or very limited arena games, @VN like League or Dota. 

And that`s why I`ve always been worried about too much skill differences in % combat in Crowfall to create and design perfect pvp templates in Crowfall, because 1 player in Crowfall can be much better compare to another player with equal skill % and the same character build without all the differences from young to old characters in Crowfall campaigns. I wish combat was simple to get into without a huge grind involved, but then again it would not been an mmo so I understand that arguement. But I wish the carrot was not designed around skill progression at all to increase the skill cap among players further with such a pvp combat design. 

I think there are some who are still worried about this project Crowfall - is`t really shadowbane 2.0? I really don`t know.

I participated in Shadowbane since (2003-2009) and I was part of the map and lore part creating the emulator for a while - so I`ve a lot of experience from the SB combat design, and it took me less than 24 hours to max out a pvp template in that game. And that will be a huge difference with skill progression in Crowfall to build unique pvp templates and somewhat counter it for another guild in a large scale combat scenario in Dregs campaigns. 

Edited by mythx

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Because making innovative games involves risk, who are they supporting right now?  Most of the backers don't even play yet.  Are they supporting the most vocal complainers that try to get their ideas pushed in?

IMO, you are the most vocal complainer, both in post count and view point. While most active folks appear to agree with or accept what ACE has done, you continue to say it needs to change for what you see as a better experience. While maybe not "complaining" you appear to be the most critical of ACE's work, constructive criticism or not. ACE appears to be happy with what they've done and overall, I don't see many up in arms. So they are supporting those that are supporting them and in some ways those that backed a product with the original concept that has little to do with what you want.

I think this is bias clouding objectivity.  I was pretty much the first and most outspoken about this issue from the getgo, and definitely the only one willing to compare it to WoW, because other people who have limited experience would rather just operate under the bias "OMG WOW BAD ANYTHING FROM WOW IS BAD OMG LOL WOW"

Nothing about the changes made to combat are WoW exclusive. Almost every semi popular MMO avoids the restrictive design they original had. ACE originally mentioned Wildstar and Tera which had plenty of positive/negative feedback before even being playable. When we got our hands on it, didn't take long for the general consensus to be for change, which unsurprisingly they eventually did. If you believe you lead us all and are responsible for the changes, so be it, thanks.

Anyway if you objectively looked at the comparison being made between numbers in fights you would see that the point I was making was that WoW had turned sieges into an activity that occurred every other hour on tons of different battlegroups with larger fights than shadowbane really ever had. 

A game with millions of player that turned every aspect into the most convenient dumb down spoon fed form possible was able to have larger and more frequent pre-made events. Surprised I'm not. Objectively the comparison is apples to cheese. Subjectively SB's combat and WoW's sieges are both hilarious.

If you have true friendly fire, for example, then anything from small scale fights to large scale fights will have more dispersed formations. Dispersed formations lighten the load on performance as not everything is occurring in a supercompacted area.

So the solution to large scale performance improvement is not to have large scale combat or spread every out evenly? Kind of defeats the purpose unless you're seeking small scale dueling across a large plot of land. I'd love to see a company market this way "Come play our siege and massive warfare PVP game, just remember to only have 10 players on screen at any given time!" With how it is going, might end up this way, FF or not.

This is a bit of a cop out, because you don't have to follow everything you've typed, but you yourself have literally discussed some of these issues plenty with me already, so you definitely saw some of those posts.

That's just it, I basically repeat myself seeing if you might actually answer, but it's usually the same vague statements. Honestly curious what you have in mind. Guess I don't speak VN vagueness or simply miss every time you are actually specific.

If ACE's game isn't even up to the average of a modern MMO do you think it will fare well?  If for example the combat had stayed as it was?  Or movement was super restricted?  Or some of the future concerns like the ability to handle an actual MMO population on one server.

No I do not and why I too voiced my concerns as did many. As I've mentioned, saying it needs to be faster, have less animation lock, more freedom of movement isn't the same as saying the skill ceiling needs to be higher. Changing animations and speed and relatively easy to compare to several games and visually be seen changing. Skill ceiling is not the same and can't be adjusted without specifics. Going back to WoW, outside of movement, what else could they take inspiration from? Or any other MMO that does skill ceiling better? There is no current MMO relatively similar to CF that I would point to and say "make it like that." Especially if speaking about increasing the skill ceiling. FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR, WoW, BDO, GW2, BnS, WS, etc all have relatively low skill ceiling when it comes to combat. I liked BDO's system most recently but really isn't that challenging and is completely different from CF. 

No, it has to be concerned with what standards other MMOs have achieved, if it is subpar it will be reported as subpar, and honestly why would anyone want to make a subpar game anyway?  If this is truly a passion project I would think they would want to blow people out of the water.  They have the potential to do that, but they have to make good decisions along the way.  You talk about prolonging development forever, but they need to make the game right before pushing it out of the door.  They already had pretty big setbacks with all the things they tried to make their first version of combat work.

I agree, but looking at where they started, where they are, and the history of those on the team, I don't see them really making something vastly different. None of them have experience with "high skill ceiling" games that I know of and considering how long development has gone on without mention of any concerns from them, I assume they must be happy. It isn't perfect and surely will continue to develop, but I see no intention or desire to go in the direction you want.

 

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Yeah @BraveSirRobin elaborated it very well - so you need to include all game mechanics and evaluate it to get an accurate picture - and u don`t get that to just participate in a beta of SB, VN, but I never played WoW god forbid, it`s a player vs. environment with epic raids and raid bosses type of game with lots of time sink to progress which has nothing to do with PvP or Shadowbane large scale siege combat. :)

And it remind me since I had sage knowledge from the SB map - we had raid bosses in Shadowbane which u need a full group, or at least 3-4 skilled players back in the days to collect npc archers on your city walls in SB!, and you need to org. your guild to gank and take control of the commander rune, because stun break was essential since stuns lasted over (12-15) seconds in that game, lol. And when I think about it maybe it`s best that T. Blair created most of the combat content in Crowfall with runes, powers, & abilities. :D 

A good pvp oriented guild in SB could have 2 full groups like 20 players who could wipe out 5 full groups of Goons, because the skill differences in SB was a huge difference from an org. guild compare to another back in the days, and that incluide target calling, positioning, game knowledge, being calm in a chaotic siege doing the right things, and good tactical decisions to be successful. The skill ceilling was very limiited to core game mechanics, but it`s not all about combat related to overall game mechanics in large scale banes. However a zerg. guild like the Goons did well in Eve Online, because it was different at a much larger scale space combat game! hehe

 

Edited by mythx

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1 hour ago, APE said:

 

IMO, you are the most vocal complainer, both in post count and view point. While most active folks appear to agree with or accept what ACE has done, you continue to say it needs to change for what you see as a better experience. While maybe not "complaining" you appear to be the most critical of ACE's work, constructive criticism or not. ACE appears to be happy with what they've done and overall, I don't see many up in arms. So they are supporting those that are supporting them and in some ways those that backed a product with the original concept that has little to do with what you want.

No, this is just bias at play tbh.  I stay very focused in a few threads while there are people fighting much harder and more vocally about things like harvesting, crafting, PCM, and specific instances of balance.  I also think it is a bit oblivious to say most have accepted what ACE has done, they seem to be getting a lot of feedback. 

Also I am not the most critical overall, but the things I am critical about I am critical about.  If you don't see many up in arms you aren't reading the feedback sections a lot.  It's no accident that there are threads popping up asking people to be nicer to the devs.

Nothing about the changes made to combat are WoW exclusive. Almost every semi popular MMO avoids the restrictive design they original had. ACE originally mentioned Wildstar and Tera which had plenty of positive/negative feedback before even being playable. When we got our hands on it, didn't take long for the general consensus to be for change, which unsurprisingly they eventually did. If you believe you lead us all and are responsible for the changes, so be it, thanks.

Please give credit where credit is due, WoW is the standard of MMORPGs right now, it was the first and most polished version of the splitbody movement system.  They may have aimed for wildstar and tera elements, but the movement is much closer to WoW now, their initial vision for combat did not work.  Also it did take a while for people to figure out that there should be change.  And I will explain to you how the conversations used to go.  Hunger dome comes out and I say "Need to free up movement and make it at least as fast and free as WoW", typical response, "LOL WOW SUCKS DONT DO ANYTHING LIKE WOW".  6 months later others are saying "We need to free up movement it is too restrictive".  I didn't fluke correctness way ahead of everyone else, it's just a different level of foresight and the ability to project things based on a wider pool of experience.  It's funny how when people look back they think things like this were a no-brainer, yet if you actually go back in time to the period they argued against it so hard. 

 

A game with millions of player that turned every aspect into the most convenient dumb down spoon fed form possible was able to have larger and more frequent pre-made events. Surprised I'm not. Objectively the comparison is apples to cheese. Subjectively SB's combat and WoW's sieges are both hilarious.

You may not be surprised, but if you comb through this thread you will see people trying to argue that validity of that, which should speak to certain biases and levels of inexperience.  I don't play WoW right now, but it is definitely a standard for MMORPGs, and it is important for people to understand standards when looking at the context of game development and projecting how a game will fare. 

 

So the solution to large scale performance improvement is not to have large scale combat or spread every out evenly? Kind of defeats the purpose unless you're seeking small scale dueling across a large plot of land. I'd love to see a company market this way "Come play our siege and massive warfare PVP game, just remember to only have 10 players on screen at any given time!" With how it is going, might end up this way, FF or not.

There are many solutions that need to work together to create a good large scale performance experience.  Friendly fire is something that can help keep players more evenly spaced instead of encouraging them to form those zerg balls that are performance nightmares.  I think you are being a bit hyperbolic though.  Even creating 5m space between people on average helps performance significantly compared to encouraging them to all stand right on top of each other. 

 

That's just it, I basically repeat myself seeing if you might actually answer, but it's usually the same vague statements. Honestly curious what you have in mind. Guess I don't speak VN vagueness or simply miss every time you are actually specific.

I think this is more of a bias thing, and not really accurately reflecting the actual answers I provide.

 

No I do not and why I too voiced my concerns as did many. As I've mentioned, saying it needs to be faster, have less animation lock, more freedom of movement isn't the same as saying the skill ceiling needs to be higher. Changing animations and speed and relatively easy to compare to several games and visually be seen changing. Skill ceiling is not the same and can't be adjusted without specifics. Going back to WoW, outside of movement, what else could they take inspiration from? Or any other MMO that does skill ceiling better? There is no current MMO relatively similar to CF that I would point to and say "make it like that." Especially if speaking about increasing the skill ceiling. FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR, WoW, BDO, GW2, BnS, WS, etc all have relatively low skill ceiling when it comes to combat. I liked BDO's system most recently but really isn't that challenging and is completely different from CF. 

Freedom of movement will contribute to a higher skill-ceiling though.  Obviously people that have trouble moving in 3d spaces in a clean and fluid pattern struggle as movement gets more free.  They fare better with restricted movement systems because it restricts everyone.

They could take inspiration from tons of things in WoW, DR system, ability interactions, creative ability concepts, battleground designs, how certain types of objectives dictated certain types of player behavior.  etc etc

If you were going for ideal combat for CF you would simply say use GW2 free movement without the frequency of dodgerolling that it had and make the game actual manual aim. 

 

I agree, but looking at where they started, where they are, and the history of those on the team, I don't see them really making something vastly different. None of them have experience with "high skill ceiling" games that I know of and considering how long development has gone on without mention of any concerns from them, I assume they must be happy. It isn't perfect and surely will continue to develop, but I see no intention or desire to go in the direction you want.

They've already made vastly different changes from their own plans, so anything is possible.  But in regards to something like friendly fire, a game that is designed to offer different rulesets for different pvp playstyles should allow the hardcore bands to actually be hardcore no?  Why should they soften it?  Why make a soft pvp centric game?  How is that going to fare?  How is it going to standout at that point?  That's like play2crush but no rush for 15minutes. 

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Also I am not the most critical overall, but the things I am critical about I am critical about.  

Yes some have been overly critical, but at least they know what they have issue with and list it out. I see Devs responding to both positive/negative feedback, although those without patience need to relax. Overall, I see more focus on specific mechanics, powers, numbers, etc that they bring across clearly that devs could potentially work with. No real "combat sucks" in comparison to early on nor "raise/lower the skill ceiling."

While you might not be the largest "complainer" you view does come off as critical/negative towards ACE and those supporting their work/effort. My interpretation of what you've said is ACE is creating a sub par, low skill game that won't manage to pull in quality PVPers and potentially suffer because of this. Even somewhat passively say they are doing this intentionally which to me is disrespectful. I see little constructiveness in this continued stance and the flow of combative discussions you have with folks (which are two way).

I see a lot of "I know what is best" "Ace isn't doing it right or should do it this way" "You're all wrong" that really doesn't add a lot. Not saying I'm much help myself, but I do find your self indulgent comments to not have any worth in terms of making CF a better product.

Really just confused how after 2+ years, you continue to believe they will somehow see things as you do. The further development gets along, the less likely this will happen. With soft launch supposedly happening relatively soon, the chances of them making enough changes to up the skill ceiling to your standards is slim to none. They have way too much too pump out as it is.

Please give credit where credit is due, WoW is the standard of MMORPGs right now, it was the first and most polished version of the splitbody movement system.  They may have aimed for wildstar and tera elements, but the movement is much closer to WoW now, their initial vision for combat did not work.  

WoW might be the standard for you, not for me. WoW is a great product and I enjoyed Vanilla, beyond that, I'd much prefer to play several other MMOs, but alas none really do it for me. I hope CF sets its own standard, instead of trying to live up to a game that caters to a completely different style of play.

You may not be surprised, but if you comb through this thread you will see people trying to argue that validity of that, which should speak to certain biases and levels of inexperience.  I don't play WoW right now, but it is definitely a standard for MMORPGs, and it is important for people to understand standards when looking at the context of game development and projecting how a game will fare. 

Both games are invalid to me and neither is a standard I want ACE aiming for. 

There are many solutions that need to work together to create a good large scale performance experience.  Friendly fire is something that can help keep players more evenly spaced instead of encouraging them to form those zerg balls that are performance nightmares.  I think you are being a bit hyperbolic though.  Even creating 5m space between people on average helps performance significantly compared to encouraging them to all stand right on top of each other. 

Proper physics/collision should keep players from standing on top of one another. Be it a Zerg Ball is on top of one player or spread out across an area thanks to collision or FF, performance is going to suffer. Don't know how much optimization can happen with this engine, but if they don't figure it out, FF isn't going to save the day. Again, no game has every done it that well and I highly doubt CF/Unity will be different. However, as long as it is playable, having lower FPS at times shouldn't cause the game to suffer too much.

I think this is more of a bias thing, and not really accurately reflecting the actual answers I provide.

It is bias as it is what I know. If I had seen you comment about specifics, I wouldn't repeat myself.

They could take inspiration from tons of things in WoW, DR system, ability interactions, creative ability concepts, battleground designs, how certain types of objectives dictated certain types of player behavior.  etc etc

This would be closer to specifics, but still don't know how ACE can take that and translate into CF's design. I'd like to see real combos and more complex powers but I don't believe it is realistic at this point nor do I want to waste time trying to convince them my way is what people want. Even if they did copy much of what WoW or other games have, I still don't see it ever being a high skill ceiling product. WoW isn't, so copying wouldn't make CF either.

IMO, one should be able to master and excel at CF and still feel accomplished if they do playing something like WoW. Considering all the unknown non-convenience outside the box components that might be needed to excel (beyond hitting 12345 and hiding behind pillars), doing well in CF should be just as rewarding if not more so.

If you were going for ideal combat for CF you would simply say use GW2 free movement without the frequency of dodgerolling that it had and make the game actual manual aim.

I'd have no problem with GW2 combat in CF but it doesn't fit imo nor do I see this team going that direction.

They've already made vastly different changes from their own plans, so anything is possible.  But in regards to something like friendly fire, a game that is designed to offer different rulesets for different pvp playstyles should allow the hardcore bands to actually be hardcore no?  Why should they soften it?  Why make a soft pvp centric game?  How is that going to fare?  How is it going to standout at that point?  That's like play2crush but no rush for 15minutes.

They've made changes, but not many "vastly" different when it comes to combat. They tried something and it flopped so they went the safer route. Still don't believe the engine/tech and or the team are able to provide what you are looking for.

As for FF, I don't see the issue. It is extremely easy for them to flip in on and off for any band/ruleset. To me this is a non issue and people arguing about it seriously are wasting their time.

 

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