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Shadowbane 2.0

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Just now, Gradishar said:

You're right of course. The "hardcore pvper" your talking about is actually only interested in FPS games where time investment, organization, leadership, group tactics  and logistics are irrelevant. If his twitch skills cannot be showcased...it's not worth his time. Those "hardcore gamers" did flee SB early for green pastures and I'm sure will likely do the same with Crowfall.

Anyone that has played any competitive game knows that time investment, organization, leadership, group tactics, and logistics are not irrelevant.  It's actually much more relevant and the skill-ceiling is dramatically higher. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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6 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

WoW did not have arenas until TBC.  And again, you are associating imagined worth to pixels where I am looking at skill-ceiling and competing  vs other skillful players.  What's more hardcore, destroying a base for a game with a tiny playerbase and a low skill-ceiling, or beating out a team in cal-i after months of hardwork and matches to get to the playoffs?

This is a tad disingenuous, shadowbane had such poor optimization and performance at launch, and so many issues, with hacking, low-skill-ceiling, etc that most of the good players left long before any gap was closed. 

I know people like to imagine a narrative where the gap was closed and then they left, but it's just not how shadowbane launch played out.  The game was objectively horrible for a launch-state game. 

I didn't claim that the gap was closed when the R30s left. They left much too early to find out what kind of a challenge a knowledgeable player base would pose. They (and CoS) left before the game matured. What guild(s) were you in again VN? What servers did you play on? How long was it before the siren song of WoW drew you to the care bear land?

Edited by Gradishar

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18 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I'm sorry but the product WAS inferior and there WERE better games out there. 

Why would hardcore pvpers want to stick around in a game with a really low skill-ceiling and terrible performance and optimization? 

Because no other game had the threat of real loss. Who cares if you lose an arena game and dont get enough "points" you can just play another.

 

Spent MONTHS building a city, harvesting resources  and You CARE if you lose. You cannot compare that feeling to any other gaming experience.

How many people called in sick to work or school on a day you knew you were being sieged?  People don't do that for instanced pvp.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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It's the difference between gambling with monopoly money and real money

It's the difference between the loser getting a little poorly made socks talk or losing months and months of work.

I wouldn't really expect VN to understand these things based on his posting.'

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41 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

Because no other game had the threat of real loss. Who cares if you lose an arena game and dont get enough "points" you can just play another.

 

Spent MONTHS building a city, harvesting resources  and You CARE if you lose. You cannot compare that feeling to any other gaming experience.

How many people called in sick to work or school on a day you knew you were being sieged?  People don't do that for instanced pvp.

I once ran and patched  Ethernet cords 125 yards to a guy down the streets house for a siege. Called into work I don't know how many times... 4am sieges staying up ... setting alarm clocks. Wife throwing dinner out the door because I was a hour late for dinner because a siege .. Turned down booty for mine times... I did not do that for WoW DaoC or any other game but ultima online , Shadowbane  and darkfall. .

Edited by dolmar

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9 minutes ago, dolmar said:

I once ran and patched  Ethernet cords 125 yards to a guy down the streets house for a siege. Called into work I don't know how many times... 4am sieges staying up ... setting alarm clocks. Wife throwing dinner out the door because I was a hour late for dinner because a siege .. Turned down booty for mine times... I did not do that for WoW DaoC or any other game but ultima online , Shadowbane  and darkfall. .

This poorly made socks was not uncommon in SB and Darkfall


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

Because no other game had the threat of real loss. Who cares if you lose an arena game and dont get enough "points" you can just play another.

 

Spent MONTHS building a city, harvesting resources  and You CARE if you lose. You cannot compare that feeling to any other gaming experience.

How many people called in sick to work or school on a day you knew you were being sieged?  People don't do that for instanced pvp.

Again, this is all psychological, you can attach psychological value to anything, but the reality of it is if it didn't take much skill it didn't take much skill.  Hardcore PvPers want to triumph over skill, not beat up on plebs. 

And you are wrong, plenty of people skipped real life commitments for big important events in instanced PvP, for example arena cut off dates to determine your final rank for the season.  Step outside the bubble. 

1 hour ago, coolwaters said:

It's the difference between gambling with monopoly money and real money

It's the difference between the loser getting a little poorly made socks talk or losing months and months of work.

I wouldn't really expect VN to understand these things based on his posting.'

I am sorry but you are extremely naive if you think esports has less on the line or less trash talk than small pond shadowbane had. 

33 minutes ago, dolmar said:

I once ran and patched  Ethernet cords 125 yards to a guy down the streets house for a siege. Called into work I don't know how many times... 4am sieges staying up ... setting alarm clocks. Wife throwing dinner out the door because I was a hour late for dinner because a siege .. Turned down booty for mine times... I did not do that for WoW DaoC or any other game but ultima online , Shadowbane  and darkfall. .

Some people do stuff like that for games that require skill, because they enjoy the competition so much.

Some people camped jboots for 36hours straight and agonized that they might miss the spawn anytime they had to pee. 

It's ultimately an unhealthy way to play games, but like I said before, for hardcore pvpers what matters most is skill, the rest is nice, but without the skill the rest doesn't matter.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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On 6/4/2017 at 1:34 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

No... it had the lowest skill-ceiling of any pvpcentric mmorpg to date.  My guild was the best pvp guild in shadowbane, we've won the 10vs100+ battles, they required little mechanical skill and most of my guildmates from shadowbane were unable to even break 1800 in wow arena, and they were some of the best shadowbane players around.

I've seen maybe a handful of players that were good at shadowbane show the ability to adapt to new games and play them at a high level of skill, and none of them think shadowbane required very much skill. 

Shadowbane was slower-paced, most of the people that gravitate to that type of gameplay are the ones that get overwhelmed by the speed of competitive play in newer games.

Claims he won a 10 vs 100 fight.

Claims game requires little skill.

:huh:

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Just now, blazzen said:

Claims he won a 10 vs 100 fight.

Claims game requires little skill.

:huh:

I guess some people just don't grasp how fights can play out eh? 

It's much more interesting to beat idra 1v1 in sc2 than it is to beat 100 1st graders in tic tac toe. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

I guess some people just don't grasp how fights can play out eh? 

It's much more interesting to beat idra 1v1 in sc2 than it is to beat 100 1st graders in tic tac toe. 

If not a difference in skill what allows 10 people to beat 100? 

 

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6 minutes ago, blazzen said:

If not a difference in skill what allows 10 people to beat 100? 

 

A game can have a low skill-ceiling and still allow 10 people to beat 100, what matters is how much skill that required, which was not enough to satisfy hardcore pvpers. 

Those at the top that are actually skilled can more appropriately evaluate where the skill-ceiling might fall, winning 10vs100 vs players who have not yet reached the skill-ceiling is great, but if that skill-ceiling is crappy the experience isn't gratifying. 

Just like you can beat someone at tic tac toe, maybe they are just that awful at tic tac toe, but if you are good at tic tac toe you can easily identify it has a low skill-ceiling.

In esports, like LoL for example, there is a huge skill gap between certain regions.  The lower skilled regions are often just happy to win, the higher skilled ones don't just want to win, they want to win in a way that pushed themselves to a higher level of play. 

Some people are gratified just with the illusion of success though, that's why some people enjoy easy achievement popups in games.  That's why some are content with success in small games with small playerbases and a lack of a competitive scene.

If some guy came up to you bragging about how he got an achievement for logging into a game 2 days in a row, and told you how skillful and amazing that was what would you think?

Ok now imagine someone doing that for a game that has a low skill-ceiling like shadowbane.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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7 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

A game can have a low skill-ceiling and still allow 10 people to beat 100, what matters is how much skill that required, which was not enough to satisfy hardcore pvpers. 

If 10 people can beat 100 people there had to be a wide gap in something whether that was levels, gear, or skill. Shadowbane wasn't a terribly gear centric game so unless you're bragging about killing 100 r1's then it would have to be a difference in skill. For there to be such a big difference in skill the skill cap would have to be sufficiently high to facilitate such a difference. 

I don't actually believe you won 10 vs. 100 (video or it didn't happen) but I do enjoy the opportunity to point out ridiculousness. 

Edited by blazzen

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6 minutes ago, blazzen said:

If 10 people can beat 100 people there had to be a wide gap in something whether that was levels, gear, or skill. Shadowbane wasn't a terribly gear centric game so unless you're bragging about killing 100 r1's then it would have to be a difference in skill. And for there to be such a big difference in skill the skill cap which have to be sufficiently high to facilitate such a difference. 

I don't actually believe you won 10 vs. 100 (video or it didn't happen) but I just enjoy the opportunity to point out ridiculousness. 

No, sorry, this simply doesn't hold true.  Just like 10 of the best tic tac toe  people could beat 100 1st graders, doesn't mean the skill-ceiling is great for tic tac toe.  It just means there are bad players. 

More importantly, my guild dominated every 10vs10 from every well known guild trying to represent.  The players in shadowbane were just not skilled, the game itself had a low skill-ceiling, it was very uninteresting and there are much more skillful games out there. 

As I've said before, it's no accident that the players who stuck by shadowbane religiously as opposed to the ones that went in search of higher skilled competition, were unable to find success in modern competitive games. 

It's always the same story with some people.  "Oh I tried X game, (insert excuse for why they couldn't hang here)".  It is NEVER "oh you know what i thought shadowbane was the greatest game ever, but I'm a competitive dude so I went to prove myself in other games and now I am a challenger in LoL, or a 2700+ rated WoW player, or a grandmaster in sc2, or esea invite in CS, or whatever else. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

No, sorry, this simply doesn't hold true.  Just like 10 of the best tic tac toe  people could beat 100 1st graders, doesn't mean the skill-ceiling is great for tic tac toe.  It just means there are bad players. 

More importantly, my guild dominated every 10vs10 from every well known guild trying to represent.  The players in shadowbane were just not skilled, the game itself had a low skill-ceiling, it was very uninteresting and there are much more skillful games out there. 

Your analogy comparing Shadowbane to Tic Tac Toe isn't applicable as one game has massive open battles whereas the other is essentially a 1v1 arena. 

If you beat every well known guild 10 vs. 10 your guild would then become well known yet nobody knows you. 

I think I've sufficiently pointed out the holes in your claims so I'm going to bow out.

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1 minute ago, coolwaters said:

Are you kidding? The guy won't even tell us who he played with.

Video. Lulz.

he didn't win a 10 v. 100. He likely "played" SB the way he "plays" CF. By not playing and saying absurd things on the forums as if they are gospel.

Actually it's pretty common knowledge who I played with.  Just some people are really that out of the loop. 

Also this is kind of ironic coming from you, considering how consistently accurate I am about CF and its development, and how consistently you seem to misunderstand things that ACE says.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Your analogy comparing Shadowbane to Tic Tac Toe isn't applicable as one game has massive open battles whereas the other is essentially a 1v1 arena. 

If you beat every well known guild 10 vs. 10 your guild would then become well known yet nobody knows you. 

I think I've sufficiently pointed out the holes in your claims so I'm going to bow out.

Um, the people that were relevant when SB was at its most populated and competitive do know me.  It's the people that weren't relevant that are trying to revise history here, stumbling over made up numbers, arguing with each other about those numbers. 

There's no consistency because they do not have firsthand experience. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Wow had the lowest skill ceiling of all time. It was and is a mass market blubie game.

There is zero risk.

I beta tested and played wow at release. I could and would go into Tauren Mill as a night elf rogue and kill everyone, by myself, over and over again. I would kill two or three people. Eventually get killed and go back and do it again. It was pointless, and i could grief everyone and had absolutely no consequences.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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