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Vonpenguin

Preventing multiple accounts for single users

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VIP def needs to be much more appealing but limited archetype selection for non vip is not the answer here, I would much much rather see this done in the general skills or crafting than limited  AT


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1 hour ago, Jjohnsin said:

Sigh another thread dedicated to this argument. What was wrong with the other 28? 

Oh well, carry on 

This syndrome isn't going to stop anytime soon.

Most new people don't bother to search or read the dozen or so other really well argued out threads on the subject. Instead, lets just randomly insert my opinion here because I can't be bothered to use a common forum feature.

No big deal. This OP presented zero facts, zero anything really (including content worth replying to). Yet, here I am again, in another thread talking about multi-boxing. This topic is like a flytrap for people who should know better.

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On 3/4/2017 at 5:41 AM, StefKalisch said:

@Vonpenguin

In eve it is very common to have two accounts, one for fighting, one for crafting. Many players have more accounts.

I do not see that is preventing eve to be a good game. Of course, as individuals such players have advantages, but this effect is

limited/outbalanced by group-play.

Spying is also an element I am afraid, Vonpenguin, you have to get used to. Treason is a common - and wanted - part of gaming in eve and I doubt it will be much different in Crowfall.

EVE's system seems similar, but in reality is very different. EVE's skill system is mainly about flexibility, not power. A trillion skill point player in his souped up battleship could pretty easily get taken down by 3-4 destroyers, if the destroyers are well equipped, and knowledgeable about the game. Similarly, if a billion skill point industry goes mining, they'll pick up the same materials as a million skill point player mining. The billion skill point player just has more options on what he can do mining, and does it a bit more efficiently. That's not really true of Crowfalls' design, and that's not really true for Crowfall right now. The devs want you to specialize in what you do. Crafting isn't just something you do in your off time. It's a profession - something you dedicate your account to. This is seen by even introductory recipes taking weeks to learn. Not really true of EVE, where you basically just need the capital to start up an operation, and skills mostly help with the per hour, not with the margin. Take a look at gathering, as well. Gathering without 3 points in plentiful harvest is painful - don't have it, and good luck basically getting any greens. Gathering without a decent crit chance and crit amount is almost as bad - good luck crafting a weapon when you pull barely 3 stone when you hammer a rock. With gathering in crowfall, not only do you build up the quality of what you harvest, but also the amount, the time it takes to harvest, and the amount of time you can spend harvesting before you need to rest. That's exponential power growth. And while I've seen talk about allowing people to train later skills without fully investing in the skills beforehand, the current skill times are basically linear. Early skills take 2ds to train, later skills take 8 or so. Compare that to EVE, where training in the first point of a skill takes around 8 minutes. Training in the last point can take weeks. And these are skills that are giving a 2% bonus! Combine two things together, and EVE has a system where skills have linear power, and exponential cost, while Crowfall has exponential power and linear cost.
 

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2 hours ago, ringhloth said:

EVE's system seems similar, but in reality is very different. EVE's skill system is mainly about flexibility, not power. A trillion skill point player in his souped up battleship could pretty easily get taken down by 3-4 destroyers, if the destroyers are well equipped, and knowledgeable about the game. Similarly, if a billion skill point industry goes mining, they'll pick up the same materials as a million skill point player mining. The billion skill point player just has more options on what he can do mining, and does it a bit more efficiently. That's not really true of Crowfalls' design, and that's not really true for Crowfall right now. The devs want you to specialize in what you do. Crafting isn't just something you do in your off time. It's a profession - something you dedicate your account to. This is seen by even introductory recipes taking weeks to learn. Not really true of EVE, where you basically just need the capital to start up an operation, and skills mostly help with the per hour, not with the margin. Take a look at gathering, as well. Gathering without 3 points in plentiful harvest is painful - don't have it, and good luck basically getting any greens. Gathering without a decent crit chance and crit amount is almost as bad - good luck crafting a weapon when you pull barely 3 stone when you hammer a rock. With gathering in crowfall, not only do you build up the quality of what you harvest, but also the amount, the time it takes to harvest, and the amount of time you can spend harvesting before you need to rest. That's exponential power growth. And while I've seen talk about allowing people to train later skills without fully investing in the skills beforehand, the current skill times are basically linear. Early skills take 2ds to train, later skills take 8 or so. Compare that to EVE, where training in the first point of a skill takes around 8 minutes. Training in the last point can take weeks. And these are skills that are giving a 2% bonus! Combine two things together, and EVE has a system where skills have linear power, and exponential cost, while Crowfall has exponential power and linear cost.
 

Well observed and stated, ringhloth, but the line of argument was rather  a) about people feeling the desire for having more than one account and b) about spying - not really about the differences in the skilling-system.between Crowfall and eve.

Edited by StefKalisch

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1 hour ago, StefKalisch said:

Well observed and stated, ringhloth, but the line of argument was rather  a) about people feeling the desire for having more than one account and b) about spying - not really about the differences in the skilling-system.between Crowfall and eve.

The reason it's fine in EVE is that it doesn't really give you a power advantage. In Crowfall, there's a really power advantage to having more specialized skills.

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5 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

The reason it's fine in EVE is that it doesn't really give you a power advantage. In Crowfall, there's a really power advantage to having more specialized skills.

I don't think people are purchasing multiple accounts in Crowfall for a power advantage so much as they believe them to be mandatory to prevent a disadvantage. The appearance of poorly designed skill trees, a nebulous idea of the economy, and irreconcilable differences in how the game loop should function is creating a whole lot of fear and uncertainty, reinforcing the idea that multiple accounts are mandatory. I understand that people giving in to this fear is good for ACE economically but it could end up backfiring, so it is very concerning that this subject has been ignored for so long. 

Also, EVE's skill tree only functions within the context of EVE's massive and robust economy. We have absolutely no information to suggest that Crowfall will even begin to compare to what has always been the leading standard for how a game economy should function. I am not saying that it can't or won't be, but we need more information to even hope that it can even come close.

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I've noticed that the same people that complain about threads on similar subjects and "new users" not searching the forums are also pretty consistently incorrect in projecting how crowfall progresses forward.

 

To the OP keep it up, important aspects of the game are worth discussing, and re-discussing, and re-discussing again until they become cemented, and even then they should be evaluated again.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Its always nice to revisit old topics again, since we might get a new viewpoint on an issue. Its only nice to pad our postcount a bit on reposts since without them, the forum would be pretty dead.

We just need a proper VIP option, and people will stop using multiple accounts.

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On 3/4/2017 at 7:23 AM, Vectious said:

Unfortunately, with today's technology it is literally impossible to enforce a 'no multi-account'.

Its a waste of resources and effort. However, what they CAN do is make VIP better or at least as good as multi-account to lower the number of people and bring the game support in terms of VIP.

 

The way to do this in my opinion is not the stick, but the carrot.

Give overlapping advantages for multiple crows on the same account. (I would call them your "murder".)

For example VIP accounts can choose which crow uses  the extra Archetype training, shared access and control of EK assets. If one crow in your Murder has a skill already trained, future crows can train it at reduced time cost. EK shared spirit bank among crows, and other convenience features.

Things that express and enhance the relationship of the crows to Player, rather than cutting it off at the login level.

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On 3/4/2017 at 8:42 AM, VIKINGNAIL said:

If you make VIP appealing enough you will deter most of the people that might buy another account or two. 

 

Nothing they do could ever deter the extreme cases of the people that like buying like 10-20 accounts, those people will always be willing to buy many accounts and probably VIP as well if it is worth it.

This.

Some players will always buy multiple accounts regardless of how the game is set up. Best can do is make it so doing it isn't the better option than single accounts.

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The only way to prevent multi-boxing is to remove any character limitations. For example skill training, it is forcing people into a role. You are either a good resource gatherer, a specific crafter or a fighter. Where in EVE this isn't a problem I really think it will hurt Crowfall. In EVE people mulit-box to circumvent the limitations and most think people will do the same in Crowfall. With EVE the multiboxing isn't a problem because it is one big world whereas in Crowfall every campaign has a limited amount of spots. So every spot filled with a second account is a spot mostly waisted. 

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9 minutes ago, Daddie said:

The only way to prevent multi-boxing is to remove any character limitations. For example skill training, it is forcing people into a role. You are either a good resource gatherer, a specific crafter or a fighter. Where in EVE this isn't a problem I really think it will hurt Crowfall. In EVE people mulit-box to circumvent the limitations and most think people will do the same in Crowfall. With EVE the multiboxing isn't a problem because it is one big world whereas in Crowfall every campaign has a limited amount of spots. So every spot filled with a second account is a spot mostly waisted. 

I'd guess most of the people using multiple accounts to play most efficiently are gonna be in the inner bands (guild v guild, dregs, etc)...In which case it's only a detriment to their own cause, taking campaign spots that could very well be filled by more actual players. So I say go for it, take 10 spots for yourself...Just gives the other side a 9 player advantage 

Edited by Jjohnsin

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29 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

I'd guess most of the people using multiple accounts to play most efficiently are gonna be in the inner bands (guild v guild, dregs, etc)...

I have a different opinion about it. Most people multibox because they want to be independent and to obtain more and easy wealth, not to enrich their clan/guild/cooperation. Also often people leave out their alts out of the clan/guild/cooperation or even join other clans/guilds/cooperations.

I even think that during campaigns guilds will ask people to join with multiple accounts just to be independent from others outside the guild. Only few guilds will be big enough to have every role filled with a player who really enjoys that one role. 

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1 hour ago, Daddie said:

The only way to prevent multi-boxing is to remove any character limitations. For example skill training, it is forcing people into a role. You are either a good resource gatherer, a specific crafter or a fighter. Where in EVE this isn't a problem I really think it will hurt Crowfall. In EVE people mulit-box to circumvent the limitations and most think people will do the same in Crowfall. With EVE the multiboxing isn't a problem because it is one big world whereas in Crowfall every campaign has a limited amount of spots. So every spot filled with a second account is a spot mostly waisted. 

Ace is pretty clear in the FAQ, that will not be the case.

Quote

In terms of number of players, it’s a seamless-world MMO server, so the goal is to support thousands of players. It’s not a “50 versus 50 match”, or anything like that. The only limit that will be placed on the user population for each Campaign World will be the technical limitations of the hardware, i.e. how many players can a server handle? We won’t know that until testing, but we expect it to be similar to other seamless world MMOs.

Technical limitations will come into play on how many logged in players there are, not how many accounts are signed up to a campaign.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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On 3/4/2017 at 7:19 AM, yoink said:

 

I'm pretty sure that this is exactly a main purpose of their design.

Which kind of sucks.

I'd rather pay more and be able to explore the additional content without the minor inconveniences the alt account system carries with it.

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On 3/4/2017 at 8:23 AM, Vectious said:

Unfortunately, with today's technology it is literally impossible to enforce a 'no multi-account'.

Its a waste of resources and effort. However, what they CAN do is make VIP better or at least as good as multi-account to lower the number of people and bring the game support in terms of VIP.

This is the answer and the "but, but P2W" stuff is nonsense. It's already "P2W" by their definition and a real VIP would make it less so.

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4 hours ago, coolwaters said:

This is the answer and the "but, but P2W" stuff is nonsense. It's already "P2W" by their definition and a real VIP would make it less so.

If they wrapped some other functionality and bonus behavior into the whole thing, it could even be part of the game.

Taking the "Murder" idea of multiple crows per account, they could start with a cap of say 1, and then VIP adds 2 (even if you VIP for only one month), followed by a growing cap based on won campaigns.  Win a campaign, get another crow slot for your Murder.

That way successful players, and anybody else, could eventually earn as many "alts" as they liked, but be strongly motivated to keep that account VIP for all the crossover benefits that VIP could have built in. 

As it is now, unless there is some way to purchase accounts with in game currency, it's far more pay to win than integrated into the baseline account.

It's not like that's an old concept.  Many players still have the multi character kick starter reward.  The need, desire and format has already been recognized from the start, they just have to apply it up into crow level.

That would certainly shut me up about needing multiple general training lines, if I could have multiple crows attached to a single account.  It would satisfy my "buy one account to play the whole game" ideal.  Even if it took you months to earn a second slot for free, at least it would be in reach eventually.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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9 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Ace is pretty clear in the FAQ, that will not be the case.

Technical limitations will come into play on how many logged in players there are, not how many accounts are signed up to a campaign.

And yet they need to balance teams. If 10K players sign up for Team A and only 1K for Team B the outcome is already decided before the campaign starts. Same for concurrent playing players. If technical limitations allow for 10K concurrent players it would be unfair if Team A logs in with 9K players leaving only 1K spots for the other team. 

One way or another.. every multiboxing account takes up extra spots.

Edited by Daddie

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