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Playable placeholders - Official discussion thread

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Heh.  Really the answer to pretty much every question was STFU and wait for disciplines.

I really hope the introduction of disiplines 

  • makes resource costs important to more than just knights and druids
  • gives us the archetypes as you intend them rather than with stuff baked in.
  • restores the Myrm to playability and restores the "take dmg to deal more dmg" concept of the character

Maybe you're a victim of your own success.  From a tester perspective, the pre-alpha feels like an incomplete game... but it feels like a game.  So we treat it as a game.  Which is a good thing for you as it gets us testing much more than it would if it were merely an assembly of disconnected systems.  But we get really concerned when the game aspects are so badly unbalanced that some classes are unplayable (myrm) or nearly so, while others are quite OP (templar, fessor).  Because there's a game, we feel that the playing field needs to be approximately level, while it is obvious that the designers feel that there's no actual game yet, so balance doesn't matter at all - they eventually agree to do something about all the whining about Myrms, for example, and respond with an absolutely brutal nerf that turns the best AT in the game into the worst AT in the game.  Maybe their point is "stop whining or we'll break this so hard no one will play".

Given the plan laid out here (we've been waiting on disciplines and we've baked things into ATs that won't be there soon), balance isn't really a concern.   But the over-reaction nerf to myrm is.  It feels vindictive.  If balance isn't a concern, why change the core concept of a class (one of the coolest concepts) to make it unplayable.  It gives us the impression that not only do you not care about balance right now (which is fine), but that you don't understand balance in game right now (which is not).

Edit: I wish they'd been more clear about the skill training times concerns.  They said they will allow people to train past skills before the skill reaches 100.  That's fine - don't care, but it's fine.  But they said nothing about the incredibly long training times - do they feel it's appropriate for it to take well over a year to master Ore harvesting, for instance?  There's too much specialization required right now.  Not "harvester" specialization, or even "excavation" specialization, but "copper and iron" specialization, eventually growing into "ore specialization" - it's too much.

Edited by durenthal

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So why choose to go with this location hit boxes? Its unneeded complexity. I have only ever seen this one time in a game and it had other systems that overlapped and assisted this system. And even then, it always begged the question "But why?".

And how would you apply this thing realistically? A axe attack that crosses their entire body which gets assigned to it? The first hit? Or is it just a roll and a piece of armor gets randomly selected? 

You say that its so you can "target the head" or "target the feet"....but why? Target the feet slows them? Just add that as part of the ability that it applies a slow. Targeting the head gives them dizzy? Just add that part of the ability. You could add in another system that could identify the weak parts of the armor so you can get a extra 10% damage in targeting that one armor but...how do you target it? With an ability that purposely targets only that one peice of armor? Why not just turn it in to a armor debuff on the attack. Its so much over complication for extremely little gain. 

Also you mentioned so that a person cant get away with wearing one piece of armor...that makes no sense. If you have 4 armor slots each giving 5% to a total of 20%, if you only wear one piece....thats not getting away with anything you are at 5% damage reduction.

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay that cant be taken care of in a easier, more traditional way. Its not breaking new ground, its just an overly complex way to do something extremely simple. 

Edited by Vectious

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7 minutes ago, durenthal said:

Given the plan laid out here (we've been waiting on disciplines and we've baked things into ATs that won't be there soon), balance isn't really a concern.   But the over-reaction nerf to myrm is.  It feels vindictive.

Word.

 

6 minutes ago, Vectious said:

And how would you apply this thing realistically?

Future patch note: Divine Light only hits feet hit boxes

:D

Edited by mrmoneda

Hi, I'm moneda.

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So location based damage is random? I guess having different abilities that are fashioned to hit certain parts of the body is cool, but I'd prefer to actually aim at the head, or the legs, or the chest and have the ability do different things. Most likely too much work, but the RNG of this (and other things) irks me.

I'm kinda concerned about the difficulty of acquiring discipline runes since they're so vital to your character's customization.

Soul gems seem kinda cool as do thralls and the potential for scrimmages to break out over them. I doubt you'll see many loners roaming around looking for thralls with soul gems in their back pack tho.

Edited by helix

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6 minutes ago, helix said:

So location based damage is random? I guess having different abilities that are fashioned to hit certain parts of the body are cool, but I'd prefer to actually aim at the head, or the lags, or the chest and have the ability do different things. Most likely too much work, but the RNG of this (and other things) irks me.

I'm kinda concerned about the difficulty of acquiring discipline runes, since they're so vital to your character's customization.

I do hope that getting discipline rules will require sweat, blood, and tears - not being something easily achieved.

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the real tidbit for some of us non-PvP testers was the basic crafting skills parent stat. This was an assumption from past updates but it does help to have it clearly stated. Even though these skills open up 'Basic Crafting' their use goes far beyond these recopies which makes me happy as would hate to see that amount of skill time wasted on non-crafting specific items. 

It still does not address the oddities in the lines to reach the specific profession in the trees, but at least their selection has more long term depth 

 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Unless they can have a system that can handle computing where your attacks are actually contacting the target I don't think they should go with location based damage. 

 

That being said, I am glad ACE is staying rational about the concept of balance and all of the things yet to be added and not listening to too many of the balance complaints.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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5 minutes ago, Vectious said:

Also you mentioned so that a person cant get away with wearing one piece of armor...that makes no sense. If you have 4 armor slots each giving 5% to a total of 20%, if you only wear one piece....thats not getting away with anything you are at 5% damage reduction.

Armor doesn't currently work that way, I don't know why. The stats are cumulative from all pieces of armor, but the mitigation is slot dependent. If they made it so the mitigation numbers added up, it would provide plenty of incentive for people to wear all armor pieces. It would certainly make things less confusing. If they got rid of the hit location thing and had all mitigation be cumulative, they could add the armor mitigation values to the paper doll so people can tell what their actual mitigation is. I don't think the hit location adds anything to the game, since we can't target specific locations and don't get different effects based on where we hit.

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Thinking about C abillities in isolation is the wrong approach I feel like. It is less if all C abillities are equal in power, i.e. things with less damage should take less to charge, but more what archetype needs the C power more often.


 

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I love you all.

 

 

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The top take away from this months Q and A is how it would be in the teams best interest to drop the 100% skill training limiters right now. I mean as they read this post someone pop in and change 'the knob' as we could be helping to test a lot of impactful skills if we could see the system move as they have stated was their plan all along.

 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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10 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Armor doesn't currently work that way, I don't know why. The stats are cumulative from all pieces of armor, but the mitigation is slot dependent. If they made it so the mitigation numbers added up, it would provide plenty of incentive for people to wear all armor pieces. It would certainly make things less confusing. If they got rid of the hit location thing and had all mitigation be cumulative, they could add the armor mitigation values to the paper doll so people can tell what their actual mitigation is. I don't think the hit location adds anything to the game, since we can't target specific locations and don't get different effects based on where we hit.

Indeed, i was trying to give an example that with out hit locations you dont get away with only having one peice of armor, so their reasoning to use hit locations so people could not get away with just using one peice of armor was silly.

And theres not alot they could do to make this system make sense, combat wise. They could pour tons and tons of work and resources to try and make it work....but again, for what gain? I use an ability, i could care less where and what it hits. They would have to add a system so a person can see the weakness and try and maximize damage targeting that weakness. And then...thats more of extremely small scale combat. That type of micromanagement is a 1on1 type of thing, realistically. And it would only work if you could change all your abilities to target that specific part. Otherwise only 1-2 of your abilities get the benefit..the effort and reward would never be there.


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I took it as they can add to our abilities. I.E. a snare spell would hit feet and use the foot armor for mitigation.(this would be in the tool tip since we can't actively hit feet) This would allow the snare and also little more damage as it mitigates against the armor of the foot. This is assuming every piece of armor has different values.

Edited by Papito

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video tl;dr give up on giving feedback until later cos magic!

As in the discipline news thread:

Its currently presented as a one size fits all magic bullet, but as we saw in Soul power, not all things work well when applied generally with regards mechanics, balance or even archetype role identity

e.g. how will disciplines interact with wildly different base archetype resource types (mana, fury, rage, energy, arrows, pips, essence, 'stamina') and how will this interact with multiple power tray characters versus single tray characters

more details on runecrafting and thrall capturing would also be of interest (e.g. the 'exploration and crafting gates' to this customisation)

different AT getting different slots based on the 'base power' also seems a poor means of 'balance' or gameplay choice... and the problem where a big chunk of base powers are basically useless isn't solved by just swapping them out all the time

and how it will relate with promotions, advantages and disadvantages and enchantments that we haven't heard about forever either

finally: how 'open' will you be presenting the list of possible disciplines? will this list be available to players? only available to runecrafters when they have trained their recipe nodes? entirely hidden and discovered by wildcard recipe experimentation?

Edited by Tinnis

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2 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

video tl;dr give up on giving feedback until later cos magic!

As in the discipline news thread.

Its currently presented as a one size fits all magic bullet, but as we saw in Soul power, not all things work well when applied generally with regards mechanics, balance or even archetype role identity

e.g. how will disciplines interact with wildly different base archetype resource types (mana, fury, rage, energy, arrows, pips, essence, 'stamina') and how will this interact with multiple power tray characters versus single tray characters

more details on runecrafting and thrall capturing would also be of interest 

different AT getting different slots based on the 'base power' also seems a poor means of 'balance' ... and the problem where a big chunk of base powers are basically useless isn't solved by just swapping them out all the time

These are balance issues that they can address with some number tweaks later if they see fit.

Look at the bigger picture, not specific abilities at this specific time in this very partial test of a game.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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11 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

 

finally: how 'open' will you be presenting the list of possible disciplines? will this list be available to players? only available to runecrafters when they have trained their recipe nodes? entirely hidden and discovered by wildcard recipe experimentation?

this really intrigues me! 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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1 hour ago, Vectious said:

So why choose to go with this location hit boxes? Its unneeded complexity. I have only ever seen this one time in a game and it had other systems that overlapped and assisted this system. And even then, it always begged the question "But why?".

And how would you apply this thing realistically? A axe attack that crosses their entire body which gets assigned to it? The first hit? Or is it just a roll and a piece of armor gets randomly selected? 

You say that its so you can "target the head" or "target the feet"....but why? Target the feet slows them? Just add that as part of the ability that it applies a slow. Targeting the head gives them dizzy? Just add that part of the ability. You could add in another system that could identify the weak parts of the armor so you can get a extra 10% damage in targeting that one armor but...how do you target it? With an ability that purposely targets only that one peice of armor? Why not just turn it in to a armor debuff on the attack. Its so much over complication for extremely little gain. 

Also you mentioned so that a person cant get away with wearing one piece of armor...that makes no sense. If you have 4 armor slots each giving 5% to a total of 20%, if you only wear one piece....thats not getting away with anything you are at 5% damage reduction.

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay that cant be taken care of in a easier, more traditional way. Its not breaking new ground, its just an overly complex way to do something extremely simple. 

Axe swings are "easy" compared to AOE effects.  Which fire mitigation do you apply when dealing with a fire whirlwind?

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