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Pann

Founders’ Update: BuilderWorld - Official discussion thread

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Back to the issue at hand....

While I certainly agree with everything mentioned in this Founder's Update...I would be remiss if I did not ask for some clarification. It is, of course, entirely appropriate to ask a testing community to refrain from using exploits to ruin another player's testing experience. However, this being pre-alpha...and there being tons and tons of bugs found ever single day, it becomes quite difficult to discern if my playing a Templar who is getting 200% healing from a training node which presently reads 2% is therefore "ruining another player's testing experience." If my playing a Templar and clearly using this "bug" to make my vessel extraordinary difficult to kill is the "repeated use of a exploit" contemplated here, then I do have a serious concern about this admonition. I have reported this bug. I have made it clear that either there is a bug in the code or the skill is mislabeled. My only recourse now is to stop playing the Archetype (which I do not feel is the correct response) or continue to test the AT to discern what else is working correctly or incorrectly. Ultimately, I believe it would be best to "be specific" about such bugs and exploits the Devs believe are "crossing the line" and are appropriate for disciplinary action. 

Edited by Gradishar

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5 hours ago, Pann said:

Thanks to everyone who participated in the first BuilderWorld weekend. Please share screenshots and videos of your in-game creations! 

FULL STORY

I will, feel free to give me access to my EK ;)

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7 minutes ago, srathor said:

@Yoink Of course not. It is entombed in the great big book of Grudges. One day I will have my revenge. Muhhahahaaha....

Yeah. I suck at pvp. He is pretty sure to be safe. 

There is always somebody who will do the job for you, for the right price ;)

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6 hours ago, blazzen said:

I confirmed that you can in fact kill and loot someone in this fashion then I reported it via video.

used it to kill someone who didn't wish to be killed on a PvE server, took his deeds, (once your "test" was done you didnt give the deeds back) and then made the act publicly visible to other testers. It's not funny.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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17 minutes ago, Surgemaster said:

used it to kill someone who didn't wish to be killed on a PvE server, took his deeds, (once your "test" was done you didnt give the deeds back) and then made the act publicly visible to other testers. It's not funny.

It was funny. It was mean too, but it was definitely funny.

I think even the victim here gets that.

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It was funny. After I cooled down from seeing my deeds looted.

I was not sure if they were gone permanently or not, I didn't think so, but I did check to make sure. 

Was it still a hooligan move? I think yes. And his little CYA of posting to the forum with the video <wink wink nudge nudge I am soooo innocent> after the fact is a decent enough plausible deniability to not worry about it too much.

But overall it is not even nearly the closest thing to truly piss me off in a pvp game. I am not very good at pvp, but I do like to try hard. (Yes I know that will get me mocked, I don't care) I like to play these games for the puzzle aspect of the interactions, what are the soft counters, what are the hard counters. What could I do to win next time if my arthritis doesn't screw me over. What class could counter what that person did.

Hell ask Anthrage how much of a bad sport I am, I was quizzing him after he handed me my ass yesterday and grouped up and defended him from Ginko. 

Anyways sorry for the ramble. I do not want Blazzen punished now for the exploit, that would be foolish, he is a skilled player and smart to catch and use the exploit.

But I am reserving the right to call him an unpleasant person. Much like facerip. And one day i will get revenge. Probably after they are weak and half dead and asleep or something, but pain is coming! They will rue the day. Rue I tell you! Muhahahhhaha <cough, wheeze> Nevermind.

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15 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

It was funny. It was mean too, but it was definitely funny.

I think even the victim here gets that.

If the exploit hurts the play experience of other testers. You cant see in the video but I was in srathor's party when it happened. Pretty sure he wasn't laughing at the time. In chat I suggested that Blazzen give back what he took. He did not. Funny is an opinion I don't share


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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9 hours ago, Pann said:
  • Failure to report an exploit means that you also risk losing your access to Crowfall permanently.

This is exactly the kind of statement that would entice me not to report an exploit.

What are you thinking ACE?  Do you realize this community has been funding the project, and is paying for the privilege to help you test your product? Blackmailing people into submitting bug reports is very bad spirit. People will report because they want to help, not because they fear for their account, and no amount of coercion will change this. In fact, it would even be illegal to terminate someone's account (he paid for) based on "failure to report" something he volunteered to investigate and has no legal obligation to disclose. It's not like players are paid workers and the product of their work is your intellectual property.

If you want professional testing behavior, hire a QA team and pay them to document dutifully everything they find. But if you use your player base to test, you can't require professionalism. Treat players respectfully, keep in mind that ultimately bugs and abuses remain your responsibility, and make sure testing remains something fun. Let them do whatever they want, including having fun with the bugs. If you are doing your job well, you'll still be able to catch the bugs just by watching what's happening in the realm with debug level logging activated. After all, what other form of rewards are testers receiving? Or are you giving in-game bounties or something? Maybe you should consider that instead of threatening people of retaliation. Positive incentives is the only type of incentive that doesn't backfire.

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From Rules of Conduct

Exploit, distribute or publicly inform other members of any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage

video was made and info not sent to artcraft support.

Oh and tell me please oh please if his intent was to make a video "for testing purposes" and report it like a good tester, why does his comment on the video say, " Just testing wall placement on the side of a hill and this dude got in the way... "

His intent was clear and he chose to take materials from another tester which was currently being tested and not give it back.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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24 minutes ago, trismegistus said:

After all, what other form of rewards are testers receiving? Or are you giving in-game bounties or something? Maybe you should consider that instead of threatening people of retaliation. Positive incentives is the only type of incentive that doesn't backfire.

On a second thought, I think in-game bounties would probably help a lot. Being in-game, they don't cost you anything. But players being players will still feel rewarded.
One example would be to create an exclusive reward that only exploit reporters would receive. The reward would be granted under specific conditions, like reasonable testing behavior, and non-disclosure of the bug to the public before it's fixed by ACE. Typically, some cosmetic item that players can display proudly in their EK will do. You could give different items based on the criticality of the bugs disclosed, with most severe exploits granting the most epic and rare reward.

Edited by trismegistus
typo

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8 minutes ago, trismegistus said:

This is exactly the kind of statement that would entice me not to report an exploit.

What are you thinking ACE?  Do you realize this community has been funding the project, and is paying for the privilege to help you test your product? Blackmailing people into submitting bug reports is very bad spirit. People will report because they want to help, not because they fear for their account, and no amount of coercion will change this. In fact, it would even be illegal to terminate someone's account (he paid for) based on "failure to report" something he volunteered to investigate and has no legal obligation to disclose. It's not like players are paid workers and the product of their work is your intellectual property.

If you want professional testing behavior, hire a QA team and pay them to document dutifully everything they find. But if you use your player base to test, you can't require professionalism. Treat players respectfully, keep in mind that ultimately bugs and abuses remain your responsibility, and make sure testing remains something fun. Let them do whatever they want, including having fun with the bugs. If you are doing your job well, you'll still be able to catch the bugs just by watching what's happening in the realm with debug level logging activated. After all, what other form of rewards are testers receiving? Or are you giving in-game bounties or something? Maybe you should consider that instead of threatening people of retaliation. Positive incentives is the only type of incentive that doesn't backfire.

If you think that it was fun for Srathor at the time then maybe you should have volunteered to have your deeds taken in this fashion instead of an unwilling player (who btw paid that same money to be able to test building placement) You forget that there are two parties to this situation and you clearly don't care about both of them.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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12 minutes ago, Surgemaster said:

From Rules of Conduct

Exploit, distribute or publicly inform other members of any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage

video was made and info not sent to artcraft support.

Oh and tell me please oh please if his intent was to make a video "for testing purposes" and report it like a good tester, why does his comment on the video say, " Just testing wall placement on the side of a hill and this dude got in the way... "

His intent was clear and he chose to take materials from another tester which was currently being tested and not give it back.

The guy needs his stuff back, obviously. But the rest of this is silly in my view.

It was a major bug. Now it's not. Thank you Blazzen now stop being so mean?

Had he not made the video and documented this I'd fault him more.

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1 minute ago, Surgemaster said:

If you think that it was fun for Srathor at the time then maybe you should have volunteered to have your deeds taken in this fashion instead of an unwilling player (who btw paid that same money to be able to test building placement) You forget that there are two parties to this situation and you clearly don't care about both of them.

This is a testing realm. No actual deeds have changed ownership. If you don't want to be victim of bugs, broken game mechanics, and unfair advantages don't play on a test realm. It's a simple as that. Regarding that particular player, if he really is so upset to have no more building blocks to play with for the few more days that this test will last, he can contact ACE support and ask for his stuff back. Ultimately it's ACE's responsibility if there is a bug, and if people come complaining to the support, this is effectively helping making them aware of the existence of the bug even if the original exploiter doesn't report it.

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1 minute ago, trismegistus said:

This is a testing realm. No actual deeds have changed ownership. If you don't want to be victim of bugs, broken game mechanics, and unfair advantages don't play on a test realm. It's a simple as that. Regarding that particular player, if he really is so upset to have no more building blocks to play with for the few more days that this test will last, he can contact ACE support and ask for his stuff back. Ultimately it's ACE's responsibility if there is a bug, and if people come complaining to the support, this is effectively helping making them aware of the existence of the bug even if the original exploiter doesn't report it.

Let him own up to what he did. Don't blame srathor for being a tester. Blazzen didn't do the right thing. He violated the rules of conduct.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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@Trismegistus

I was the one wicked witched. Reported it, described it, a bit after I had posted it to the bug forum got to watch it again in glorious exploitovision, then got over with it. Sure I want to kill Blazzen now, but after meeting him I think that might be a long que.

Thanks Surge for defending me but I am fine with it now. Bug gets fixed, I vow to make Blazzen Rue the day, and all is good. Also I am a big boy. I can defend myself. Sure it will involve getting clubbed like a baby seal and bleeding all over their new boots, but stains are forever!

The deeds will be back next Buildertest, and I can even place them now. If you have an issue with going into place mode and effectively locking up, then before trying to place deeds, hit escape go into key bindings and reset to default. It does not like custom key binds. That fixed it for me. 

Anyways the drama was about 15 minutes total I cried for a while and blew my nose and got better. Thankfully I saved the salt for my next potion of Srathor's Tears.

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Just now, Surgemaster said:

Let him own up to what he did. Don't blame srathor for being a tester. Blazzen didn't do the right thing. He violated the rules of conduct.

I'm not blaming the victim. But I'm not blaming Blazzen either. Finding bugs is the name of the game in testing realms, and thanks to his actions, ACE is now aware of a major exploit. Anything else is irrelevant, this being a test realm.

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13 minutes ago, trismegistus said:

I'm not blaming the victim. But I'm not blaming Blazzen either. Finding bugs is the name of the game in testing realms, and thanks to his actions, ACE is now aware of a major exploit. Anything else is irrelevant, this being a test realm.

Cant wait to test the blacklist feature.

 

*Edit*

What is griefing in video games?
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
@srathor I'm not commenting on the situation for you. I'm commenting because of my own opinions on the situation and that other players are trying to spin it into something that it wasn't.
Edited by Surgemaster

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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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