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Kingdom management - Official discussion thread

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1 minute ago, Daddie said:

I think any land bought in the store doesn't have some sort of upkeep. But, thats me just making a guess :)

I think so. I'm just trying to be sure those "no upkeep" parcels from KS (which should be very valuable given their origin) aren't gimped somehow such that you can't place resource spawners.

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Sweet! I really can't wait for campaigns and EK to fully function! Things are really going to start to pile on it feels like, new EK, disciplines, testing of diff campaign types etc. Also, group sizes are currently fine, but this game needs a raid where it links multiple groups up, it really helps to organize and coordinate as a group if that information. Would really like to size up to at least 20-30 raid sizes.


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6 minutes ago, krevra said:

Sweet! I really can't wait for campaigns and EK to fully function! Things are really going to start to pile on it feels like, new EK, disciplines, testing of diff campaign types etc. Also, group sizes are currently fine, but this game needs a raid where it links multiple groups up, it really helps to organize and coordinate as a group if that information. Would really like to size up to at least 20-30 raid sizes.

Speaking as a representative of the 'lacking any single target damage powers' clan, I have to disagree about group size. 5 - hell, 4, since you can't count yourself, people safe from friendly fire in fights that should be as you say numbering in the 40-50 range is just horrible. A Druid HAS to use Death Tray powers to bleed Essence, and this combination of factors, like so many when it comes to the Druid they have designed, is...prohibitively poor, to put it politely. If group sizes stay at 5 come release I don't think I can bring myself to suffer the mangled manacled mess that Druid is currently.

Edited by Anthrage

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1 hour ago, scornoflife said:

Since seeing the builder world that's where my mind has gone as well. People could certainly come together and create an awesome PvP map to play on and compete in!

It's my sincere hope that this idea gets implemented, because they have said they can stitch multiple EK's together, be fantastic if two EK's could que up with each other for 3, 4, 5, 6.... hours as mini campaigns, and sling leather and steel at each other for fun and profit. 

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I remember there being a proposed toggle for PVP (on/off).

You might consider a toggle for looting players (on/off).

You also may want to have certain toggles announce to everyone in the EK and/or require a time period before the change goes into effect. Otherwise it would be very easy for a monarch to grief newcomers to the EK by enabling PVP in an otherwise NON-PVP area.  

 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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3 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I remember there being a proposed toggle for PVP (on/off).

You might consider a toggle for looting players (on/off).

You also may want to have certain toggles announce to everyone in the EK and/or require a time period before the change goes into effect. Otherwise it would be very easy for a monarch to grief newcomers to the EK by enabling PVP in an otherwise NON-PVP area.  

 

This is a legitimate concern. I think a running timer of 15 minutes or so announced to all people in an EK if/when a monarch switches from non- to -pvp so they know to gtfo before their pixels are endangered would do well to alleviate that potential problem. 


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When they say that EKs are going to be centers of trade, what does that mean? They're there for account level trading ie the only things that are traded are the stuff produced in EKs and the stuff that came through embargo, or are campaign worlds able to interact with EKs? If it's the former, I don't really know why I'd bother trading, if in many campaigns I can't use anything use what I bought in EKs.

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2 hours ago, ringhloth said:

When they say that EKs are going to be centers of trade, what does that mean? They're there for account level trading ie the only things that are traded are the stuff produced in EKs and the stuff that came through embargo, or are campaign worlds able to interact with EKs? If it's the former, I don't really know why I'd bother trading, if in many campaigns I can't use anything use what I bought in EKs.

It probably has something to do with campaign import rules.  I suspect those are going to be played with as much as the other rules are. Could be that there are campaigns that have a regular import schedule, so people can move a few things in and out.

I also suspect that the biggest seller/trader in terms of import items is not going to be finished goods, but BPs.  Would you rather have a suit of armor, or the BPs that can make 40 of the same suits of armor if you get the resources from the world.

 

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2 hours ago, ringhloth said:

When they say that EKs are going to be centers of trade, what does that mean? They're there for account level trading ie the only things that are traded are the stuff produced in EKs and the stuff that came through embargo, or are campaign worlds able to interact with EKs? If it's the former, I don't really know why I'd bother trading, if in many campaigns I can't use anything use what I bought in EKs.

I've got exactly the same questions as you. I want to know exactly how the EKs are tied to the Campaigns. The must be tied together somehow since they have the embargo system. If I could accomplish everything I need to accomplish within the single Campaign that I chose to play, then I would never need to embargo, or win stuff at the end of the campaign. I would gather, craft, trade and fight all in the same Campaign. EKs would not be considered market hubs if that were the case.

Quote

They should be centers of trade, commerce, guild negotiations or even private battles (if the PVP flag is raised).

This makes me imagine that you must go to an EK in order to trade (for the most part). Trading will probably occur most through use of another player's Thrall. Players from all over will create Parcels with Buildings that house Thralls as vendors or crafters or guards, etc. These players will insert these Parcels into other players' EKs (trying to join the most prestigious EK they can afford, tax rates will be higher to join better EKs) so that they may reap the benefits from said player's relics/artifacts, max player population and public visibility. I am hoping the repair system utilizes this concept to give players yet another reason to visit the EKs. I can see items being "campaign-bound", but transferable to EKs for repairing and trading. Some items will be "account-bound" and some both account and campaign bound. Let all items be usable in the EK, but then only allow it back to its original campaign (unless the import/export rules dictate otherwise).

From what I have read, in the FAQ and on the forums, this is the most likely scenario of how the economy will work and how the EKs will play their part. I would love for a Dev to give the exact process so we can all better understand the vision of the game.

 

Edit: I'm also wondering if there will actually be CWs where no importing/transferring at all will be allowed. Thinking on that (in the shoes of a player who may only play the most hardcore CWs and never work on their EK), I would join said CW, not being able to import anything when I join and never being allowed to transfer items during. I can use the embargo system, but those items can't be imported into the next CW I play with the same ruleset so they get stuck in the EK that I don't use. Also, any items I win through use of victory points will be stuck in my EK as well due to the same dilemma. This type of CW would both negate the embargo system as well as the victory conditions.

I think every CW will have some sort of import and transfer allowed. They will simply be more strict for the more hardcore CWs and for the easier CWs they may use a similar system to what we use for testing (I hope not 2 mins, but maybe bump it up to 1/2/4 hour(s), etc.).

Edited by Slashin8r

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6 hours ago, blazzen said:

I remember there being a proposed toggle for PVP (on/off).

You might consider a toggle for looting players (on/off).

You also may want to have certain toggles announce to everyone in the EK and/or require a time period before the change goes into effect. Otherwise it would be very easy for a monarch to grief newcomers to the EK by enabling PVP in an otherwise NON-PVP area.  

 

Good ideas. Toggle for looting would be awesome.

I almost think something like this would take care of itself even if a timer wasn't implemented. Just thinking to how players would react in the player run game. Word would spread and people would stop visiting that monarch's EK. Said monarch would lose tax revenue and regret his/her decisions (hopefully, lol).

 

Edit: Just read this and needed to comment on it.

7 hours ago, corvax said:

It's my sincere hope that this idea gets implemented, because they have said they can stitch multiple EK's together, be fantastic if two EK's could que up with each other for 3, 4, 5, 6.... hours as mini campaigns, and sling leather and steel at each other for fun and profit. 

This is epic! I did not know they even thought about adding something like this. I want this added for sure. I'll even take it as an expansion a year after release.

Edited by Slashin8r

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It probably has something to do with campaign import rules.  I suspect those are going to be played with as much as the other rules are. Could be that there are campaigns that have a regular import schedule, so people can move a few things in and out.

I also suspect that the biggest seller/trader in terms of import items is not going to be finished goods, but BPs.  Would you rather have a suit of armor, or the BPs that can make 40 of the same suits of armor if you get the resources from the world.

 

I don't think regular importing is the solution - ideally, bring resources into the campaign should basically require resources leaving the campaign. I could see you being able to purchase goods in EKs with campaign resources, as the same amount of resources are leaving as are staying. But there would need to be a way to guarantee "fair" prices to stop people from getting around import/export rules. But there isn't.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It probably has something to do with campaign import rules.  I suspect those are going to be played with as much as the other rules are. Could be that there are campaigns that have a regular import schedule, so people can move a few things in and out.

I also suspect that the biggest seller/trader in terms of import items is not going to be finished goods, but BPs.  Would you rather have a suit of armor, or the BPs that can make 40 of the same suits of armor if you get the resources from the world.

 

Ive been trying to find out if blueprints will be tradable. I'd love to know for sure.

 

*edit* on second concideration to what you said Krakken, you can't produce an item with a blueprint unless the components have the exact same serial number. meaning that suit of armor would need the exact same metal bars and armor layers and everything the original crafter used on the suit just to make it. that being true, you couldn't just import 1 blueprint and be able to make 40 armor pieces. you'd have to import all the exact materials with the blueprint.

still would like to know if they are tradable though ;)

Edited by Surgemaster

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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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7 hours ago, Surgemaster said:

Ive been trying to find out if blueprints will be tradable. I'd love to know for sure.

 

*edit* on second concideration to what you said Krakken, you can't produce an item with a blueprint unless the components have the exact same serial number. meaning that suit of armor would need the exact same metal bars and armor layers and everything the original crafter used on the suit just to make it. that being true, you couldn't just import 1 blueprint and be able to make 40 armor pieces. you'd have to import all the exact materials with the blueprint.

still would like to know if they are tradable though ;)

Your right, you would have to build your first suit in the EK, and keep track of all the BP's you used along the way, and import every single one of them.

So for a sword,

  • make a bar BP, make one pommel.
  • make a bar BP, make one cross-guard.
  • make a bar BP, make one blade core.
  • make/buy a handle BP, make one grip
  • Put them all together, make one sword BP
  • Import all the above BP's into the world.

(Note, I may have missed a part or two.)

I suspect they are tradeable, just by the design of interdependence the game is taking.  I see it being a not fun play requirement having to cart around 100's of component parts made by a in this example, the leather worker, rather than purchasing the needed component (grip) as a BP, and setting up your own production run of them.

Otherwise it's just too much micro management of parts along the way.  Just think of how much component scavenging is going to need to be done to make a book.

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11 hours ago, ringhloth said:

I don't think regular importing is the solution - ideally, bring resources into the campaign should basically require resources leaving the campaign. I could see you being able to purchase goods in EKs with campaign resources, as the same amount of resources are leaving as are staying. But there would need to be a way to guarantee "fair" prices to stop people from getting around import/export rules. But there isn't.

I think that given the nature of CW's, if ACE does not increase at least the export from end of campaign, players are all simply going to ignore the EK's, and the very idea of them, because economy need products moving at all times in order to function.  

If it was up to me, I would allow export based on a timer like the spirit bank, where the better your team is doing, the faster the bank has access to the transferred materials. Set up in terms of days where it is now minutes.

I would then set it up so that the only thing you can import is BP's, so that the objective of the EK is to get the best materials possible regularly from CW's, and export the best BP's possible to the campaign worlds.  

Then each world is "fair" in that ALL materials used in the fight are from harvesting that world. You get to import nothing material, and need to export as much as is required to produce BP's to give you an edge.

The current plant of three or more month bursts of material import is not going to create a system with a stable "income".  You don't pay people once a year, or even once a month, for a very good reason.

The current embargo rate plans ignore that reality.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think that given the nature of CW's, if ACE does not increase at least the export from end of campaign, players are all simply going to ignore the EK's, and the very idea of them, because economy need products moving at all times in order to function.  Three to Six month bursts of material import is not going to create a system with a stable "income".  You don't pay people once a year, or even once a month, for a very good reason.

If it was up to me, I would allow export based on a timer like the spirit bank, where the better your team is doing, the faster the bank has access to the transferred materials. Set up in terms of days where it is now minutes.

I would then set it up so that the only thing you can import is BP's, so that the objective of the EK is to get the best materials possible regularly from CW's, and export the best BP's possible to the campaign worlds.  

Then each world is "fair" in that ALL materials used in the fight are from harvesting that world. You get to import nothing material, and need to export as much as is required to produce BP's to give you an edge.

The current plant of three or more month bursts of material import is not going to create a system with a stable "income".  You don't pay people once a year, or even once a month, for a very good reason.

The current embargo rate plans ignore that reality.

This is why discussions of top-order economic factors can't be left until the end. Combat and crafting are important, but war and commerce are the soul of the game. You can't have the larger representations of those tasks function properly without building these systems right from the beginning. Always happy to see it talked about, even if many disagree on solutions. At least disagreements lead to acknowledgment of importance.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Put them all together, make one sword BP

if that one sword turns out to be poorly made socks then you'd have to rinse repeat the process if you wanted a better sword. All the while the blueprints then won't make as many items.

Edited by Surgemaster

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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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37 minutes ago, Surgemaster said:

if that one sword turns out to be poorly made socks then you'd have to rinse repeat the process if you wanted a better sword. All the while the blueprints then won't make as many items.

That's the plan.

Bar BP makes 100, after experimentation the cross guard BP will make 80 before running out of bars, after the same process on all parts you will 60 hilts, etc.

So that's why I started the armor example at "make 40 of the same", because I was factoring in 3 steps that lose 20 each to experimentation, as a rough estimate.  Any second tier BP is going to be useless long before it runs out of capacity, simply because there won't be any parts for it left in the world.

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