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Never have anyone be 25% more powerful than anyone else


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In my opinion all MMO's get this one thing wrong and it ruins everything else so that pvp is never as popular(fun) in this genre as others.

 

This is the uncle bob problem in mmos. Even in well made MMOs they don't take this into consideration during development. Someone or some guild edges out everyone else and starts one shotting or taking 50% of everyone else's health. All the rest of the players who don't have that power are bored because they have no chance of beating them. The people who kill everyone else are bored because they aren't challenged. Just like in Risk, the game is over but we're just waiting for it to end. And unfortunately MMO's can't change this once the game is out because they created entire systems based on this power difference which destroying would waste hundreds of man hours.

The max level player should never be more than 25% stronger than the soft cap or the easy to reach in terms of hours level or power.

No one likes it. Check out people other than me who are currently in MMOs like that and they'll tell you how annoying it is to be in that situation. People only like the thought of slaughtering their enemies. Once they actually do it; it gets boring quickly.

This also makes it so that the fun part of the game is 100s of hours away and is only fun for a little while. while other multiplayer games which are on an even level have tons of replayability.

TL;DR

Massive difference in levels creates a boring uncle bob problem. Don't do it.

Edited by Holyvigil
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In my opinion all MMO's get this one thing wrong and it ruins everything else so that pvp is never as popular(fun) in this genre as others.   This is the uncle bob problem in mmos. Even in w

This is a general warning for those making personal attacks and derailing the topic. It needs to stop now or I'll start handing out warning points.  Here are the Rules of Conduct in case you need

All you've done is rephrase the same fallacy.  Your ability to equip pixels is completely independent of your actual knowledge of the game mechanics and ability to react to what is happening at any gi

Without final numbers on the trees and gear, there's no way to really know, but I feel pretty confident saying you're out of luck on this one.  You won't even get the majority of the players here to agree with you, since they're comfortable with Crowfall having Eve- or Star Citizen-like individual power disparities.   1v1 balance takes a back seat to roles & group play.   True balance applies only to Release day 1 in the same Campaign.  New players are promised a catch-up mechanism.

As a quick example (and reiterating that we need final numbers to know and there's plenty of promise for "balance"), you can pull approximately +125% final damage on the top 50 deadliest skills from the Combat Tree alone:

                        Avg Start    Combat Tree
                         ----            ----
AP                    285           +185
Weap Dam       800           +130
Crit Dam           2.5%        +24.5%
Bonus Dam      0%            +10%

The math-savvy forum can provide additional numbers which drive this number down, but the point is that 25% isn't even in the ballpark.  Not in any area, really -- weapons, the Universal Tree, the AT tree, group buffs, etc.  

P.s.  The 25% could be implemented with strict campaign attributes.  Even so, it would be difficult, since there are dozens of stats.

Edited by Dominate
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Eh, the great things about mmos are the imbalances.  I'd rather they not dampen all of that, I mean they already have with passive training quite a bit.  Remove progression and you remove incentive and you remove the feeling of loss or gain in this kind of game. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Eh, the great things about mmos are the imbalances.  I'd rather they not dampen all of that, I mean they already have with passive training quite a bit.  Remove progression and you remove incentive and you remove the feeling of loss or gain in this kind of game. 

The only people saying things like this are the ones who can only find success because of superior stats or equipment.  The single largest determining factor in who wins or loses should come down to skill.  You can have your progression, but that certainly shouldn't mean you just go around slaughtering everyone with a couple mouse clicks.

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They've been trumpeting shallow power curves for quite awhile. I'm confident that even if it's a massive uphill struggle a new character with some low end gear can hold their own with a fully kitted and skilled up monster if they are good enough at the player controlled portions.

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25 minutes ago, Vonpenguin said:

They've been trumpeting shallow power curves for quite awhile. I'm confident that even if it's a massive uphill struggle a new character with some low end gear can hold their own with a fully kitted and skilled up monster if they are good enough at the player controlled portions.

Certainly possible 1v1 scenario.... with massive edits everywhere.

Currently you're looking at having DPS classes sprint to AP nodes within 3 months, increasing their power 40-80%, while simultaneously hitting the 50% mark on Combat Principles, opening up very fast T1 & T2 nodes for more damage in Weapons or AC/mitigations in Armor.   If that doesn't do it, a crafter Alt account for Experimented gear, or a guild, will make sure that noob stays in the Temple or on the ground.  

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I think one way to try to have our cake and eat it too, is to cap how much more powerful in terms of dealing damage any one person could be than others, but go a bit further than that in terms of how much HP they have, how good their defense is and so on. Basically, do not reward the person with better gear/more advanced training with extreme ability to kill others quickly, but rather making it harder for others to kill them. This way they still get something in return for their advanced state, but not something which can cause balance issues. Being hard to kill can cause problems as well, but they are of a different nature and can be dealt with more easily.

Another way to reward said people is with a greater range of options, more powers as opposed to more power - more options, more discipline slots perhaps, more weapon masteries and so on. This also makes sense in an in-character context as well, where there would be a cap on how powerful you could become, but not on how much you could learn...as an immortal Crow...
 

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I recall something from a long long time ago where Blair (I think) said something to the effect of 3 brand new untrained ungeared players would be toe to toe with a decked out veteran. I'm not giving an opinion either way, just stating something I remember reading.

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53 minutes ago, Dominate said:

Certainly possible 1v1 scenario.... with massive edits everywhere.

Currently you're looking at having DPS classes sprint to AP nodes within 3 months, increasing their power 40-80%, while simultaneously hitting the 50% mark on Combat Principles, opening up very fast T1 & T2 nodes for more damage in Weapons or AC/mitigations in Armor.   If that doesn't do it, a crafter Alt account for Experimented gear, or a guild, will make sure that noob stays in the Temple or on the ground.  

 

Just repeating what they've stated wanting in the Q&A videos. They want a flatish curve where veteran's have a clear but not insurmountable advantage. How much adjustment they need is another thing entirely.

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4 hours ago, Meurto said:

The only people saying things like this are the ones who can only find success because of superior stats or equipment.  The single largest determining factor in who wins or loses should come down to skill.  You can have your progression, but that certainly shouldn't mean you just go around slaughtering everyone with a couple mouse clicks.

Uh no, I come from an esports background, MMOs shouldn't be esports, their appeal should be adapting to uneven situations.  If you don't see that then imo you've missed the thing that made the first gen mmos great and make current ones crappy.

If anything, when it comes to MMOs those that only want fair fights are those that generally lack the ability to adapt and improvise in an unbalanced situation.

Can you imagine game of thrones where everyone has to agree to fair fights and your plots against your enemy must first be okayed by your enemy as fair.  Lol

 

Also for op they once said 4 new characters might give a fully trained player a fight, but that was specifically in regards to the training power curve.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I think one way to try to have our cake and eat it too, is to cap how much more powerful in terms of dealing damage any one person could be than others, but go a bit further than that in terms of how much HP they have, how good their defense is and so on. Basically, do not reward the person with better gear/more advanced training with extreme ability to kill others quickly, but rather making it harder for others to kill them. This way they still get something in return for their advanced state, but not something which can cause balance issues. Being hard to kill can cause problems as well, but they are of a different nature and can be dealt with more easily.

Another way to reward said people is with a greater range of options, more powers as opposed to more power - more options, more discipline slots perhaps, more weapon masteries and so on. This also makes sense in an in-character context as well, where there would be a cap on how powerful you could become, but not on how much you could learn...as an immortal Crow...
 

This is even worse. Not being able to damage someone is taking way more skill out of it than them hitting like a truck.

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5 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Uh no, I come from an esports background, MMOs shouldn't be esports, their appeal should be adapting to uneven situations.  If you don't see that then imo you've missed the thing that made the first gen mmos great and make current ones crappy.

If anything, when it comes to MMOs those that only want fair fights are those that generally lack the ability to adapt and improvise in an unbalanced situation.

Can you imagine game of thrones where everyone has to agree to fair fights and your plots against your enemy must first be okayed by your enemy as fair.  Lol

 

Also for op they once said 4 new characters might give a fully trained player a fight, but that was specifically in regards to the training power curve.

You've missed the mark with the OPs point.

Uneven situations and having to adapt isn't in question.  His point is stat-packing to the point the code is "doing it for the player" to too high a degree.  And, the OP also has correct that the failure in many MMOs is that this occurs, sometimes to flagrant/arbitrary degree to the point it actually takes players OUT of PvP with a redirect to a PvE / gear grind.

Put two players on the field naked, with rock throwing and you'll still have uneven situations (4 v 1), the unexpected (rogues from stealth), etc.

Generally speaking I'm with the OP:  Ensure that at both ends of the "power domain", a "cap" player can NEVER be invulnerable, or near to it, to a new player.  The new player still needs to be dangerous to at least some degree firstly, and secondly the "vet" must ALWAYS be required to take action to protect themselves.  AKA no automatic passives, at the cap level, blanketing the vet in a cloak of invulnerability.  Having to CAST a bubble of protection is however perfectly reasonable.

This maintains maximum distribution of "the unexpected" and "various possibilities" across the entire combat playerbase, instead of Vets "farming" their way to eliminating as many variables/dangers from their time on a PvP map through nothing more than grinding, in whatever form that take.  While at the same time ensuring the real Life Blood of the game (any game) always feels part of PvP:  New Players.

It's OK, perhaps necessary in emotional and economic fashion, to have "a good variety of gear" in the game.  It's less necessary for healthy PvP, and most never see that because of the pre-disposed programming many of the MMOs have drilled into their heads since their first login.  It's ok to have gear, better gear, and best gear.  That does have "better stuff" on them, better looking skins, maybe some glowy effects.  That contribute to Achievements and Collections, that are desired by other players and sell.

So if I say that, then where's the line?  How do you judge when something has gone too far?

PvP game play.  When the entire system of scaling (most notably in passives, if any) takes players OUT of PvP by virtue of nothing more than time played and/or gear/stats/levels.  

A different way to look at it:  You can encourage the Uncle Bob Condition through a power-scale imbalance just as much as a single persistent world.

So, my experience with people is they do like to screw with each other.  Basic human nature, you don't even have to try, they'll do it on their own balls to the wall, no encouragement.  And the unexpected, having to adapt and always be on your toes automatically comes with all of that.  Keep the power scaling shallow, as we think the direction is, everybody is in the fight as it should be.

And if you are a "vet" with a lot more time in the game as the guy you are poking, it's likely you'll kill them.  Assuming you are actually playing your character and paying attention.  Otherwise . . . "the unexpected" will have the opportunity handed to them to kill you . . . and make off with some of that "uber gear" you've "l33t Veteraned" onto you.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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15 minutes ago, Bramble said:

You've missed the mark with the OPs point.

Uneven situations and having to adapt isn't in question.  His point is stat-packing to the point the code is "doing it for the player" to too high a degree.  And, the OP also has correct that the failure in many MMOs is that this occurs, sometimes to flagrant/arbitrary degree to the point it actually takes players OUT of PvP with a redirect to a PvE / gear grind.

Put two players on the field naked, with rock throwing and you'll still have uneven situations (4 v 1), the unexpected (rogues from stealth), etc.

Generally speaking I'm with the OP:  Ensure that at both ends of the "power domain", a "cap" player can NEVER be invulnerable, or near to it, to a new player.  The new player still needs to be dangerous to at least some degree firstly, and secondly the "vet" must ALWAYS be required to take action to protect themselves.  AKA no automatic passives, at the cap level, blanketing the vet in a cloak of invulnerability.  Having to CAST a bubble of protection is however perfectly reasonable.

This maintains maximum distribution of "the unexpected" and "various possibilities" across the entire combat playerbase, instead of Vets "farming" their way to eliminating as many variables/dangers from their time on a PvP map through nothing more than grinding, in whatever form that take.  While at the same time ensuring the real Life Blood of the game (any game) always feels part of PvP:  New Players.

It's OK, perhaps necessary in emotional and economic fashion, to have "a good variety of gear" in the game.  It's less necessary for healthy PvP, and most never see that because of the pre-disposed programming many of the MMOs have drilled into their heads since their first login.  It's ok to have gear, better gear, and best gear.  That does have "better stuff" on them, better looking skins, maybe some glowy effects.  That contribute to Achievements and Collections, that are desired by other players and sell.

So if I say that, then where's the line?  How do you judge when something has gone too far?

PvP game play.  When the entire system of scaling (most notably in passives, if any) takes players OUT of PvP by virtue of nothing more than time played and/or gear/stats/levels.  

A different way to look at it:  You can encourage the Uncle Bob Condition through a power-scale imbalance just as much as a single persistent world.

So, my experience with people is they do like to screw with each other.  Basic human nature, you don't even have to try, they'll do it on their own balls to the wall, no encouragement.  And the unexpected, having to adapt and always be on your toes automatically comes with all of that.  Keep the power scaling shallow, as we think the direction is, everybody is in the fight as it should be.

And if you are a "vet" with a lot more time in the game as the guy you are poking, it's likely you'll kill them.  Assuming you are actually playing your character and paying attention.  Otherwise . . . "the unexpected" will have the opportunity handed to them to kill you . . . and make off with some of that "uber gear" you've "l33t Veteraned" onto you.

Nope sorry you seem to have been the one to miss the point of my post.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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18 hours ago, Holyvigil said:

In my opinion all MMO's get this one thing wrong and it ruins everything else so that pvp is never as popular(fun) in this genre as others.

 

This is the uncle bob problem in mmos. Even in well made MMOs they don't take this into consideration during development. Someone or some guild edges out everyone else and starts one shotting or taking 50% of everyone else's health. All the rest of the players who don't have that power are bored because they have no chance of beating them. The people who kill everyone else are bored because they aren't challenged. Just like in Risk, the game is over but we're just waiting for it to end. And unfortunately MMO's can't change this once the game is out because they created entire systems based on this power difference which destroying would waste hundreds of man hours.

The max level player should never be more than 25% stronger than the soft cap or the easy to reach in terms of hours level or power.

No one likes it. Check out people other than me who are currently in MMOs like that and they'll tell you how annoying it is to be in that situation. People only like the thought of slaughtering their enemies. Once they actually do it; it gets boring quickly.

This also makes it so that the fun part of the game is 100s of hours away and is only fun for a little while. while other multiplayer games which are on an even level have tons of replayability.

TL;DR

Massive difference in levels creates a boring uncle bob problem. Don't do it.

I'm sorry, are you proposing universally nerfing everybody, or are you proposing removing the RPG elements from the MMORPG? Because it sounds like those are your only two solutions, and neither one addresses the problem you have laid out, so I'm having trouble understanding your position.

It seems like you might be looking for a different genre of game, because the reason no MMORPG does that "right" is because that is..not a goal of the RPG genre. That entire mentality is in fact entirely antithetical to RPGs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I don't see the issue here. There will be advantages to progressed training sure. But it won't be overpowering. What will matter is group coordination, AT build/gear/stats (vessel grade/discs applied and grade/weapons and armor grade) and last but not least, player skill. There will be multiple factors. Group coordination and player skill within their designed role being the greatest. This isn't a MOBA. For reference (and a prime example), check out this video if you have not seen it. 4v1

 

 

Edited by armegeddon

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Side note. From where did you get the idea that 25% was the magic number? I assume you have some kind of hard data backing that up, since you've gone as far as to condemn it as the "one thing" that "ruins everything else" and single-handedly makes PvP less popular and fun in MMOs than in other genres.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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2 hours ago, goose said:

I'm sorry, are you proposing universally nerfing everybody, or are you proposing removing the RPG elements from the MMORPG? Because it sounds like those are your only two solutions, and neither one addresses the problem you have laid out, so I'm having trouble understanding your position.

It seems like you might be looking for a different genre of game, because the reason no MMORPG does that "right" is because that is..not a goal of the RPG genre. That entire mentality is in fact entirely antithetical to RPGs.

I haven't crunched the numbers so I don't know about the first one. On your second thought: I don't know where you got that idea because I never said anything close to that. It sounds to me like you couldn't even see a game like that so I encourage you to imagine it.

I'm not looking for a different genre don't worry about that. And you're wrong about that not being a goal of the RPG genre. There is no one "goal" of the RPG genre; game makers can set whatever goals they want including having balanced pvp. Your point is just narrow minded. 

2 hours ago, armegeddon said:

I don't see the issue here. There will be advantages to progressed training sure. But it won't be overpowering. What will matter is group coordination, AT build/gear/stats (vessel grade/discs applied and grade/weapons and armor grade) and last but not least, player skill. There will be multiple factors. Group coordination and player skill within their designed role being the greatest. This isn't a MOBA. For reference (and a prime example), check out this video if you have not seen it. 4v1

 

 

I agree. I've played it and watched many hours. I hope the devs continue to not make it overpowering.

2 hours ago, goose said:

Side note. From where did you get the idea that 25% was the magic number? I assume you have some kind of hard data backing that up, since you've gone as far as to condemn it as the "one thing" that "ruins everything else" and single-handedly makes PvP less popular and fun in MMOs than in other genres.

Estimated it. Taking 25% more damage and having to deal 25% more damage and so on seems as far as you can go while being fair. No I don't. I don't see why you think people need facts on an opinion piece. Sure it would make it better but does voicing concern have zero value to you? If you were about to fall off a cliff and didn't realize it and I told you to "watch out!" Would you reply "where's your facts?!" as you fall to your death? Would you demand I take a picture and send it to your cell phone? Would you demand I explain the physics of falling from a high height? Would you demand I list deaths from previous people who did not watch out? This is from my own experience with playing with others and why they don't experience it. I'm not going to list off my friends from all the MMOs I've ever played.

Edited by Holyvigil
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My first impression upon jumping into the playtesting was "wow - 52000 health? seems like with multipliers this can get out of hand easily". Obviously this is opinion, but I have found that lower numbers is easier to balance around, especially when weapons do a set amount of damage. The difference between my Myrm vessel and Legion vessel is 10,000 HP. Doing 500 damage per hit on my Myrm (the main one i play) - that is a huge difference of 20 attacks more that the Leg can soak up before any damage mitigation. I dont think I can even do 20 basic attacks in a row without running out of rage.

I know this is merely basic attacks - but there should be a base line of some sort. I haven't been involved in game development lately or even on graphics MORPGS, but was concept design on several MUDs that did pretty well and the better systems generally had the max level players at approximately 100 HP. End-game tactics were more tactical and timing than merely button mashing and overpowering with raw stats.

Again - opinion, but I think end-game advancement should be more about variation and finding alternatives and skills than merely increasing base stats and numbers. I hated to see Vessels and necromancy incorporated into the game because my first reaction was "well, thats just another bundle of stats that some people will max and then everyone will need to max in order to be competitive".

Better weapons and gear should provide subtle bonuses instead of exponentially better results. The high quality axe won't do any more damage cleaving through your skull than the simple one - but it may have less chance to lose durability, it may be better balanced and allow for quicker follow up blows. This is what allows an RPG to engage its players in its world as opposed to merely having it be a constant arms race to get the latest/greatest in order to not become redundant.

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12 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Uh no, I come from an esports background, MMOs shouldn't be esports, their appeal should be adapting to uneven situations.  If you don't see that then imo you've missed the thing that made the first gen mmos great and make current ones crappy.

If anything, when it comes to MMOs those that only want fair fights are those that generally lack the ability to adapt and improvise in an unbalanced situation.

Can you imagine game of thrones where everyone has to agree to fair fights and your plots against your enemy must first be okayed by your enemy as fair.  Lol

 

Also for op they once said 4 new characters might give a fully trained player a fight, but that was specifically in regards to the training power curve.

No one is asking for an esports environment so you seem to have missed the point entirely.  Having a game where player skill matters is not synonymous with esports.  You seem to be exaggerating the idea of a "fair fight" with your GOT reference as no one is asking for something so structured.  The bolded comment could just as easily be rephrased to support my argument by simply removing 'un' in front of unbalanced and adding it in front of fair.  In the end the more organized and skilled group should win more often than not.

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23 minutes ago, Meurto said:

No one is asking for an esports environment so you seem to have missed the point entirely.  Having a game where player skill matters is not synonymous with esports.  You seem to be exaggerating the idea of a "fair fight" with your GOT reference as no one is asking for something so structured.  The bolded comment could just as easily be rephrased to support my argument by simply removing 'un' in front of unbalanced and adding it in front of fair.  In the end the more organized and skilled group should win more often than not.

Hi, it's an MMO where gear will matter, spec will matter, and skill will matter.  It is not going to be balanced and it is not for people who want fair fights.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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