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Pricing, Arbitrage, and all that Rot


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From my perspective, one of the most interesting questions about Crowfall is how the economy will evolve.  In particular, how prices get set.  Here’s a few quick thoughts from a (recovering) economist.

Why will Trade Happen?

 

Crowfall is designed such that individual players will have unique skills.  From my perspective, the three skill categories that will be most important in promoting trade are

  • Crafting / gathering time – Skilled harvesters have more penetration.  In turn, this will allow them to collect significant greater quantities of material in a given amount of time than unskilled harvesters.  (Improving penetration means that you can clear more nodes per hour.  Being able to clear a node with a single stamina bar significantly improves beneficial harvest results).  In a similar vein, skilled crafters can make more stuff per hour
  • Crafting / gathering quality -  The more skilled you are as a harvester, the more greens/blues/purples that you collect.  The more skilled you are as a crafter the better your final results.
  • Thuggery – When Crowfall goes live, spirit banks disappear.  And, in turn, the protection rackets emerge.

In my own guild, we already have informal policies that players shouldn’t “waste” high quality materials by doing their own crafting.  When we’re making our best weapons and the like, you’ll see one crafter making component X, a second making component Y, and third doing final assembly.

How will prices get set?

I expect that the prices for various goods will (ultimately) be determined by supply and demand.  Looking at the demand side - all other things being equal - raw materials that are required for lots of recipes should command higher prices than raw materials that don’t get used for much.  Consider metal prices.  Right now, I expect that the demand for iron, gold, silver, and tin feels like it is higher than that for copper.  (Iron and tin are required for crafting plate and mail armor.  Gold and silver are used for the most desirable tools.  Copper gets used for some weapons, but not in the same quantities).  As such, I would expect that iron would be significantly more expensive than copper).

If we look at the supply side, the primary issues impacting pricing will be

  1. How long it takes to gather materials / craft items
  2. How common various resource nodes are
  3. The relative drop rates of various qualities of ore.

Let’s look at a simple applied example:

Yesterday, I spent about two hours gathering materials in the gold /slate corner.  Over the course of two hours, I was able to collect

  • 33 purple ore
  • 200 blue ore
  • 275 green ore
  • An excessive amount of white ore

(Please note:  the two hours also included the time required for me to craft a bunch of green tools).  If blue ore and purple ore were equally valuable, I’d expect that they would trade at about 9 Green = 6 Blue = 1 Purple.

Let’s assume that I were to choose to craft tools instead of gathering raw materials.  Over the course of 6 hours, I can normally craft something on the order of 36 Blue quality runetools.  What does this imply for the price that I am charging for my tools…

The opportunity cost for me to forgo gathering and, instead craft one of my fine tools is approximately:  (9 Greens, 6 Blue Ore, and 1 Purple).  And this should be the minimum price that I am willing to charge for a blue.  (I can craft greens quicker.  They’ll be a bit cheaper.  Purples take longer.  They are going to be more expensive).

Right now, the game loop is still broken.

I am doing my own harvesting and using these materials to craft tools to sell.  In a perfect world, there would be enough dedicated harvesters such that I would be doing nothing but crafting, they would be doing nothing but gathering, and trade would make us both better off…

At the moment, I’m not sure whether the harvesters are enjoying enough of a benefit to be willing to specialize in this manner.  (its possible that the need to specialize in individual types of resource nodes combined with the friction associated in trading is blocking this dynamic from fully emerging)

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My guess: campaign markets will largely trade in political capital.  This is negotiations around seige, campaign wins, PvP agreements.   Player economies in PvP focused games tend to develop slowly because of risk around not getting paid.  For this reason most peoples economic experience in campaigns will be guild dependent.

 

The big unknown is import and export.  I still suspect most small scale trade you are talking about will occur in EKs.

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The dregs campaigns likely won't have many of the individual player merchants/traders you seem to be referring to. Guilds, not individuals, will be the basic political, military and economic actors in a Crowfall campaign. Within the guild itself you'll have something which resembles a wartime command economy. All resources collected by the guild are delivered to the guild's crafters, who then turn out all the finished products needed for the war effort.

Any trade taking place will largely be done between guilds who are on friendly or neutral terms with one another, and only to obtain resources to which they don't have ready access. These trades would probably be negotiated between guild leadership, though some very self-interested players may decide to do a few "personal" trades in secret. The only possibility for an emerging, player driven marketplace in a campaign world is for someone to create a physical marketplace town. It could be a front for some power player guild looking to offload some of it's excess gear or resources for cash (whatever "cash" ends up being), or it could be an independent agent looking to play the mercantile game. In the former case, it'd be only a matter of time before the owning guild's identity is revealed and the marketplace becomes a war target. In fact, if it is a suspected front guild, attacking it would likely bring out the actual owners to defend it.

In the latter case, a neutral guild looking to set up a legitimate market town would need non-aggression pacts from the major powers in the campaign. They could swing this on the basis that they are providing a valuable and impartial service to the whole campaign and pledge to remain completely neutral to the campaign's conclusion. Such a town could be arranged as a series of shops for rent. Players negotiate with the town's owner to rent a space for cash (or whatever), slot a vendor thrall, and then load up their wares. The only problem being that the city would have to be open to potential buyers, meaning it's also open to potential thieves and murderers. Adding some guards who can be instructed to attack hostile guilds and players may help.

 

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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53 minutes ago, soulein said:

The dregs campaigns likely won't have many of the individual player merchants/traders you seem to be referring to. Guilds, not individuals, will be the basic political, military and economic actors in a Crowfall campaign. Within the guild itself you'll have something which resembles a wartime command economy. All resources collected by the guild are delivered to the guild's crafters, who then turn out all the finished products needed for the war effort.

Any trade taking place will largely be done between guilds who are on friendly or neutral terms with one another, and only to obtain resources to which they don't have ready access. These trades would probably be negotiated between guild leadership, though some very self-interested players may decide to do a few "personal" trades in secret. The only possibility for an emerging, player driven marketplace in a campaign world is for someone to create a physical marketplace town. It could be a front for some power player guild looking to offload some of it's excess gear or resources for cash (whatever "cash" ends up being), or it could be an independent agent looking to play the mercantile game. In the former case, it'd be only a matter of time before the owning guild's identity is revealed and the marketplace becomes a war target. In fact, if it is a suspected front guild, attacking it would likely bring out the actual owners to defend it.

In the latter case, a neutral guild looking to set up a legitimate market town would need non-aggression pacts from the major powers in the campaign. They could swing this on the basis that they are providing a valuable and impartial service to the whole campaign and pledge to remain completely neutral to the campaign's conclusion. Such a town could be arranged as a series of shops for rent. Players negotiate with the town's owner to rent a space for cash (or whatever), slot a vendor thrall, and then load up their wares. The only problem being that the city would have to be open to potential buyers, meaning it's also open to potential thieves and murderers. Adding some guards who can be instructed to attack hostile guilds and players may help.

 

BINGO! I've been saying this for a while in private (and some public) discussions. I don't see where this "dynamic economy" will evolve from. If I am a "server power", these "open trade" cities would be a priority target, as they would be more likely to supply my enemies than myself. Crafting will be symbiotic or interdependent within the guild/nation. Most crafters will be busy supplying their own, not others (or if they are it would be severely frowned upon).

This won't be Shadowbane where you can "teleport in" to cities to browse wares. There, at least to date, are no plans for "free holds" or safe zones to ply one's wares without significant risk. Banking in Shadowbane was global. Will that be the case here? If not, then you will have to carry currency to trade, everyone knows where this leads. In campaign Merchant Cities will be camped non stop to squash "noobs" and gank their inventories/gear. Who is going to take the risk to travel and trade? Given the short campaign windows, is this even a feasible endeavor? I don't see it working.

The EKs are supposed to be designed for this purpose. But for Dregs/Shadow, it won't be allowed (as of now with import rules for these rule sets). It would be nice to have clarification on how exactly this "player driven economy" will work. At least for the most competitive of servers.

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1 hour ago, armegeddon said:

BINGO! I've been saying this for a while in private (and some public) discussions. I don't see where this "dynamic economy" will evolve from. If I am a "server power", these "open trade" cities would be a priority target, as they would be more likely to supply my enemies than myself. Crafting will be symbiotic or interdependent within the guild/nation. Most crafters will be busy supplying their own, not others (or if they are it would be severely frowned upon).

This won't be Shadowbane where you can "teleport in" to cities to browse wares. There, at least to date, are no plans for "free holds" or safe zones to ply one's wares without significant risk. Banking in Shadowbane was global. Will that be the case here? If not, then you will have to carry currency to trade, everyone knows where this leads. In campaign Merchant Cities will be camped non stop to squash "noobs" and gank their inventories/gear. Who is going to take the risk to travel and trade? Given the short campaign windows, is this even a feasible endeavor? I don't see it working.

The EKs are supposed to be designed for this purpose. But for Dregs/Shadow, it won't be allowed (as of now with import rules for these rule sets). It would be nice to have clarification on how exactly this "player driven economy" will work. At least for the most competitive of servers.

You know where it could work? Faction campaigns. When you're guaranteed to have a third of the campaign population as friendlies, but not necessarily guildies, it makes sense to start up a market for a number of reasons.

1. You can trust that a city controlled by your faction is a relatively safe place and that everyone capable of shopping there won't be able to attack you. (It'd be a great place for the enemy to attack, however.)

2. You don't have a personal relationship with everyone in your faction, but it still benefits you to make sure they get equipment. A "market" allows you and others to supply your faction mates while making sure you don't get taken advantage of.

3. In addition to having a third of the campaign as potential customers, you have just as many potential defenders when the enemy decides to lay siege.

The real question about this scenario is how will building/city/asset ownership be managed and apportioned in faction worlds. We've heard from ACE that they had planned to have pre-placed "ruins" we could repair. Does that mean that building will belong to the entire faction, or will it belong to the player/guild which repaired it? If it's owned by the entire faction, who has the right to slow crafting stations and thralls? 

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Oh, no doubt. Faction could work, absolutely. But... it's poor design to have a system that only really works on certain rule sets. So if you want to be a "renowned crafter", you're pidgeonholed into specific campaigns?

As far as city asset ownership, there really needs to be free placement like in SB. Otherwise, there will be real issues. 2-3k per server will be a lot of cities to place for everyone to have their chance at the throne. I could just be over thinking this though. Maybe it'll eventually be fleshed out.

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4 hours ago, armegeddon said:

Banking in Shadowbane was global. Will that be the case here? If not, then you will have to carry currency to trade, everyone knows where this leads.

I would be greatly amused if a medieval-style banking guild emerged in-game in order to help people avoid the problem of transporting large amounts of currency over contested ground. Doubly amused if [...when] it implodes in an EVE-style mass scam.

 

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To be fair, depending on import rules, an independent Crafter can supply some of his goods to individual players going to the dregs or smaller guilds. i imagine having a decent set of armor and weapons is a must for entering the dregs. Same for entering with proper tools to harvest resources. It's just a matter of what and how much you can bring in. But harvesters will need tools, crafters will likely want some crafting gear, and the PVPers will need weapons and armors. Also if an independent crafter dealt mainly in the EK for trading while improving his gear, any gear previously crafted for himself would be tradable and still have full value. 

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14 hours ago, Baldking said:

To be fair, depending on import rules, an independent Crafter can supply some of his goods to individual players going to the dregs or smaller guilds. i imagine having a decent set of armor and weapons is a must for entering the dregs. Same for entering with proper tools to harvest resources. It's just a matter of what and how much you can bring in. But harvesters will need tools, crafters will likely want some crafting gear, and the PVPers will need weapons and armors. Also if an independent crafter dealt mainly in the EK for trading while improving his gear, any gear previously crafted for himself would be tradable and still have full value. 

Right, but the week before a new campaign launches is a very narrow window in which to do some commerce. The way the import/export system is currently conceptualized, it seems like there are going to be some very bored crafter/traders sitting in the EK's, waiting for the Campaigners to return with their resources.  

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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You make it seem like the independent crafter/traders would be incapable of entering the lower level campaigns. I was merely pointing out that there will be some crafter and traders that will primarily exist in a safe craft zone like EKs.  Also I can't help but wonder whether the EK will still be accessible while you leave a character in a campaign. I don't see why they wouldn't allow you to have a campaign character going and a EK one. Just anything from the campaign would be locked til it's over and the export happens. Also there is supposed to be many campaigns going at once when they get them running. So once Crowfall has a sizable player base they could be getting alot of traffic. 

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The crow is your soul. Why do you have to stay in the EK. The craftsman goes down to the campaign (taking his hard won skills with him) and works on things there. Those items are used in the campaign. The craftsman can also use his crow to go back to the Eternal Kingdoms and work on things there with previously exported mats. (Either recently as like last nights mats gotten from the CW, or maybe last seasons)

Depending on the import rules of the campaign world the made items can be sent down, or kept until the next campaign.

Nowhere does it say that you can only play in a single campaign. The vessel is stuck on the world. The crow is not.  

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1 hour ago, Baldking said:

You make it seem like the independent crafter/traders would be incapable of entering the lower level campaigns. I was merely pointing out that there will be some crafter and traders that will primarily exist in a safe craft zone like EKs.  Also I can't help but wonder whether the EK will still be accessible while you leave a character in a campaign. I don't see why they wouldn't allow you to have a campaign character going and a EK one. Just anything from the campaign would be locked til it's over and the export happens. Also there is supposed to be many campaigns going at once when they get them running. So once Crowfall has a sizable player base they could be getting alot of traffic. 

That's not what I mean. The whole of the EK game loop requires an influx of materials from the finished Campaigns and an outflux of goods into new Campaigns. Campaigns will likely last anywhere from 1-3 months, which is a long time to be waiting for good to enter or leave the EK's. It'll be a feast/fast type of cycle at best. 

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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On 3/21/2017 at 11:07 AM, narsille said:

At the moment, I’m not sure whether the harvesters are enjoying enough of a benefit to be willing to specialize in this manner.  (its possible that the need to specialize in individual types of resource nodes combined with the friction associated in trading is blocking this dynamic from fully emerging)

You're right, but it's because of potions. Potions - by design - replace the need for training, and make the entire harvesting tree redundant. They're a temporary measure for testing purposes, they shouldn't be around for release. With potions, each and every one of us is a master harvester, and it hamstrings the economy. I assume this is working as intended; apparently ACE is not currently aiming to test the economy, they would rather everyone get out there and try harvesting to answer questions like "does harvesting work at all?" (note that this testing is needed; there still are bugs with resource respawning, and a few weeks ago it was much worse).

Without potions or training you get 1 plentiful harvest, and nodes give about 2-3 white ore apiece. Maybe you can get a green sometimes with luck, I haven't had the heart to test it beyond a couple nodes without potions. With full harvesting training, you get 4 plentiful harvest. With that and full leadership training, you get up to 5. Potions let everyone, even with zero training, skip straight to 5. Try the same 2 hours of harvesting without potions to get a better idea of what things should be like at release - I think you'll quickly become convinced that dedicated harvesters will be essential to the economy.

I would argue the opposite direction, actually. I think the gap between unskilled (and unpotioned) harvesters and fully trained ones (simulated via potions) is far too large right now. I expect dedicated harvesters to be rich, and untrained day 1 noobs to have trouble participating in the economy in any meaningful way.

Edit: but that's just a guess. I don't want to place any bets until potions are actually removed - I can see right now what harvesting is like for an individual without potions, but it's harder to predict the wider economical impact of no one having potions.

Edited by Avloren
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4 minutes ago, Avloren said:

You're right, but it's because of potions. Potions - by design - replace the need for training, and make the entire harvesting tree redundant. They're a temporary measure for testing purposes, they shouldn't be around for release. With potions, each and every one of us is a master harvester, and it hamstrings the economy. I assume this is working as intended; apparently ACE is not currently aiming to test the economy, they would rather everyone get out there and try harvesting to answer questions like "does harvesting work at all?" (note that this testing is needed; there still are bugs with resource respawning, and a few weeks ago it was much worse).

Without potions or training you get 1 plentiful harvest, and nodes give about 2-3 white ore apiece. Maybe you can get a green sometimes with luck, I haven't had the heart to test it beyond a couple nodes without potions. With full harvesting training, you get 4 plentiful harvest. With that and full leadership training, you get up to 5. Potions let everyone, even with zero training, skip straight to 5. Try the same 2 hours of harvesting without potions to get a better idea of what things should be like at release - I think you'll quickly become convinced that dedicated harvesters will be essential to the economy.

I would argue the opposite direction, actually. I think the gap between unskilled (and unpotioned) harvesters and fully trained ones (simulated via potions) is far too large right now. I expect dedicated harvesters to be rich, and untrained day 1 noobs to have trouble participating in the economy in any meaningful way.

That's just the thing. A day one noob is going to have to choose what type of gameplay he wants to specialize in. He's also going to need to make social relationships with other players in his faction to provide him with what he needs, just as he provides those players with the skills they don't have. If he chooses to go "full combat", he's going to be the guy protecting the harvesters as they caravan around from node to node. He can't harvest like they can, but they can't fight like he can. Likewise, both the harvesters and warriors may not have the exploration skills and abilities of someone who focused on being a full time scout or animal trainer. With all of these roles being potentially necessary for a successful harvesting operation, each participant can expect a share of the haul, regardless of whether they were actually doing the harvesting. Then, there's the crafters who are eagerly waiting back in at the base for someone to come to them with a crafting request. 

Specialization is fine so long as you're connected socially with people who can compliment your skill set. No man is an island in Crowfall.

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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On 3/21/2017 at 9:07 AM, narsille said:

From my perspective, one of the most interesting questions about Crowfall is how the economy will evolve.  In particular, how prices get set.  Here’s a few quick thoughts from a (recovering) economist.

Why will Trade Happen?

 

Crowfall is designed such that individual players will have unique skills.  From my perspective, the three skill categories that will be most important in promoting trade are

  • Crafting / gathering time – Skilled harvesters have more penetration.  In turn, this will allow them to collect significant greater quantities of material in a given amount of time than unskilled harvesters.  (Improving penetration means that you can clear more nodes per hour.  Being able to clear a node with a single stamina bar significantly improves beneficial harvest results).  In a similar vein, skilled crafters can make more stuff per hour
  • Crafting / gathering quality -  The more skilled you are as a harvester, the more greens/blues/purples that you collect.  The more skilled you are as a crafter the better your final results.
  • Thuggery – When Crowfall goes live, spirit banks disappear.  And, in turn, the protection rackets emerge.

In my own guild, we already have informal policies that players shouldn’t “waste” high quality materials by doing their own crafting.  When we’re making our best weapons and the like, you’ll see one crafter making component X, a second making component Y, and third doing final assembly.

How will prices get set?

I expect that the prices for various goods will (ultimately) be determined by supply and demand.  Looking at the demand side - all other things being equal - raw materials that are required for lots of recipes should command higher prices than raw materials that don’t get used for much.  Consider metal prices.  Right now, I expect that the demand for iron, gold, silver, and tin feels like it is higher than that for copper.  (Iron and tin are required for crafting plate and mail armor.  Gold and silver are used for the most desirable tools.  Copper gets used for some weapons, but not in the same quantities).  As such, I would expect that iron would be significantly more expensive than copper).

If we look at the supply side, the primary issues impacting pricing will be

  1. How long it takes to gather materials / craft items
  2. How common various resource nodes are
  3. The relative drop rates of various qualities of ore.

Let’s look at a simple applied example:

Yesterday, I spent about two hours gathering materials in the gold /slate corner.  Over the course of two hours, I was able to collect

  • 33 purple ore
  • 200 blue ore
  • 275 green ore
  • An excessive amount of white ore

(Please note:  the two hours also included the time required for me to craft a bunch of green tools).  If blue ore and purple ore were equally valuable, I’d expect that they would trade at about 9 Green = 6 Blue = 1 Purple.

Let’s assume that I were to choose to craft tools instead of gathering raw materials.  Over the course of 6 hours, I can normally craft something on the order of 36 Blue quality runetools.  What does this imply for the price that I am charging for my tools…

The opportunity cost for me to forgo gathering and, instead craft one of my fine tools is approximately:  (9 Greens, 6 Blue Ore, and 1 Purple).  And this should be the minimum price that I am willing to charge for a blue.  (I can craft greens quicker.  They’ll be a bit cheaper.  Purples take longer.  They are going to be more expensive).

Right now, the game loop is still broken.

I am doing my own harvesting and using these materials to craft tools to sell.  In a perfect world, there would be enough dedicated harvesters such that I would be doing nothing but crafting, they would be doing nothing but gathering, and trade would make us both better off…

At the moment, I’m not sure whether the harvesters are enjoying enough of a benefit to be willing to specialize in this manner.  (its possible that the need to specialize in individual types of resource nodes combined with the friction associated in trading is blocking this dynamic from fully emerging)

I think your missing the biggest part of the value of currency in the economy, cost of taxes.

Cost of taxes in CW's and the effect of building decay, up to and including total uselessness, will have a huge impact on what everything else is worth. Crafters will need to charge not only for service, but also for building upkeep costs, and those will with the current mechanics all need to be provided for by the harvesters.

That is going to strongly inform just how the economy plays out, not just player consumption of item final durability though destruction.

 

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I wonder how rigorous the API for this game will be (if there is even one). A quality API makes or breaks economies. One of the big reasons why GW2 has a flourishing economy isn't because it has an interesting gathering or crafting system, but because the quality of its API allows for players to easily detect and profit off of arbitrage. It's not free money, of course, and unless you have a lot of capital you can usually make money faster by doing more fighty killy stuff, but there are players with millions of buy/sell orders on the market, and there's no way that's going to be practical without an excellent API.

Still, the biggest question is still EKs. Devs have said they want EKs to be major parts of the economy, but unless import rules are much more lax than what we've seen (mock-ups showed even the highest tier of campaigns only allowing for equipped items to be transferred in), there's no way that's going to happen. If I can take barely enough items to last a few days, what's the point of taking anything at all? I suppose taking a quality gathering tool might matter. But quality weapons or armor? I doubt you'll see warfare that actually matters in the time it takes for those to break down. Still, we've seen so little information on importing/exporting, no one really knows how the economy will work. IMO, there has to be some system where goods can be bought in EKs mid-campaign. That's a tricky thing to do, though.

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Another prob is that casuals will get bored fast, or see no way into this game... I know most communities don't like auto grouping tools, and that auto formed groups don't give the best play experience, but at this point simply ignoring all that is a mistake to me. I know some guys look forward to the intrigue and deceiving, and in campaigns and guilds and wars etc that has a lot of value, but not to your casual players. I wouldn't mind flagging myself as a casual, get restricted to the "casual" server so i don't upset the big boys, but I'd play and enjoy the game, make friends with some casuals along the way, maybe some day form a guild worthy of moving on... heck you could make it a part of the game all together, some casual world band competition where the biggest casuals guilds fight each other for the privilege of losing their casual flag and move to bigger leagues. You wouldn't just be the new guild on the block, you'd already have gathered some reknown, and open that path for casuals who want that full experience of following that path and building something from scratch, not just join a big corp where you are serial number 15278, and you know noone in the guild, get abused till bored out of skull and quit.

From my point of view, I could get an account, log in every single time my crafting skill slot completes and do this 1 or 2 years so I can then play a game I might enjoy. With 0 active training, it just wouldn't be fun. I'll say this once more : a game is supposed to be entertaining, not a second job you need to schedule in. If they actually review their stance on this, I might pick up an account and try this again. For now, this game wasn't the one I was looking for, I got jedi mind tricked into thinking that.

Edited by Overdhose

Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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2 hours ago, Overdhose said:

Another prob is that casuals will get bored fast, or see no way into this game... I know most communities don't like auto grouping tools, and that auto formed groups don't give the best play experience, but at this point simply ignoring all that is a mistake to me. I know some guys look forward to the intrigue and deceiving, and in campaigns and guilds and wars etc that has a lot of value, but not to your casual players. I wouldn't mind flagging myself as a casual, get restricted to the "casual" server so i don't upset the big boys, but I'd play and enjoy the game, make friends with some casuals along the way, maybe some day form a guild worthy of moving on... heck you could make it a part of the game all together, some casual world band competition where the biggest casuals guilds fight each other for the privilege of losing their casual flag and move to bigger leagues. You wouldn't just be the new guild on the block, you'd already have gathered some reknown, and open that path for casuals who want that full experience of following that path and building something from scratch, not just join a big corp where you are serial number 15278, and you know noone in the guild, get abused till bored out of skull and quit.

From my point of view, I could get an account, log in every single time my crafting skill slot completes and do this 1 or 2 years so I can then play a game I might enjoy. With 0 active training, it just wouldn't be fun. I'll say this once more : a game is supposed to be entertaining, not a second job you need to schedule in. If they actually review their stance on this, I might pick up an account and try this again. For now, this game wasn't the one I was looking for, I got jedi mind tricked into thinking that.

That describes what I think the experience in the outer most band will be like.  You get to pick 1 of 3 sides, and everyone on your side is a potential ally.

No deep need to figure out if they are on your side, if they want to win, they are. That will also be the band more ignored by the "big boys", because the resources are fairly lack luster, something casuals probably won't care much about, as long as everyone is on the same playing field. It will be very hard to dominate as a guild. Maybe a few recruiters and a more casual guild branch will hang out in them, but mostly it will be be new ad-hoc groups.

Or at least that's how I imagine it will work out in the outer bands, given the descriptions.

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7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

That describes what I think the experience in the outer most band will be like.  You get to pick 1 of 3 sides, and everyone on your side is a potential ally.

No deep need to figure out if they are on your side, if they want to win, they are. That will also be the band more ignored by the "big boys", because the resources are fairly lack luster, something casuals probably won't care much about, as long as everyone is on the same playing field. It will be very hard to dominate as a guild. Maybe a few recruiters and a more casual guild branch will hang out in them, but mostly it will be be new ad-hoc groups.

Or at least that's how I imagine it will work out in the outer bands, given the descriptions.

yes with guilds dominating the fields while casuals get slaughtered screaming : but I was LFG... LFG!!! At least let me LFG... no?

here's a silly idea which would make a nice experiment :

give the gatherers / crafters a self destruct button. The way it works, the more pure gatherer you are, the shorter the cooldown on the self destruct. The crafter offers his inventory to the gods for slaying his attackers, at x% failure rate. Also, when a gatherer dies, there is a big bang that attracts a lot of attention as his crow gets yanked from his vessel, and his corpse is some kinda resource node that takes time to loot, not 2 secs to open the inventory and click loot all. Suddenly, the uber pvp'ers might not feel as inclined to go for solo gatheres who are small fry with big risk of wiping, and instead look for bigger groups who don't get to enjoy this mechanic anymore. And a fake bang, that for a short period of time renders you invisible to all but your direct attacker, giving you at least the feeling there is a way to escape or drag your attackers in a situation where they get in trouble for targetting you.

Here's silly useless idea xxx, have at it.

Edited by Overdhose

Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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