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Thoughts or ideas on skill training "catch up" system

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25 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You have my vote.

It also rather neatly limits the multi account issue.  Keeping a plethora of alts training at a slow leisurely pace, is one thing. Juggling them when they keep leveling and need attention every few minutes/hours, suddenly makes the suggested VIP perk of a skill queue something much more necessary and worth while.

It removes the need to catch up, makes a compelling early game, reduces the effectiveness of ALT accounts, encourages VIP.  

What's not to like about it?

oh I dunno, maybe it turns the game into a MOBA with longer matches? If that type of game is what one wants then great you're in luck go pick one from the hundreds already available.

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I honestly think the skill system is in a healthy spot.

The only point that I think could use some work, would be harvesting, as it has a way longer time requirement then both combat and crafting combined. Which seems a bit unbalanced.

To my knowledge the Devs want it so people that have already invested months in the game to have an advantage over the guy starting on day one. But where skills at max only increase your combat abilities by 20% of base all around at complete end game. It honestly won't make that much of a difference if at all in combat.

Combat

Yes put two players of equal skill, of equal gear, in a one vs one and give the first player an all around 20% buff. That first player will have a overwhelming advantage. But the game is not at all meant to be designed to be played like this. Granted in current testing thats what it can be, but thats not how the the game was intended to be played. 

Once servers open up. Servers are not going to have 15-45 max people on it. Where there's a very realistic chance you can easily find your self one vs one. No, servers are meant to have at minimum 150 people on in. Ideally 350-500 people and even up to a max of 800 people. One vs One will be an exceptionally rare then in that kind of environment. Guilds and alliances are meant to have hundreds if not thousands of people in them. Battles are meant to be at the very smallest 10v10 or maybe 5v5. Which tactics and strategy weigh far heavier then a 20% combat buff. 

Crafting

This is where people will start to see some more noticeable difference when servers have hundreds of players. And I honestly feel its in a healthy spot. Those who have invested months upon months of their time will be able to create better items then the new guy out. And in a long period time that the game is designed to be, I think its in a healthy spot.

Harvesting

Now as is harvesting will be by far the biggest gap between veteran players and new players. When the game hits live, there will be no harvesting potions of any kind. Meaning for new players. Obtaining just blues. Is going to be an impossible thing to do. As that quality is locked behind plenti-harvesting gates. Fresh out the gates everyone will be playing in white gear with the exception of dedicated guilds, that manages to farm out green gear for their front liners.

End game players will naturally be able to obtain blues, purples, oranges nearly a million times easier then new players. Which I feel is a healthy thing considering it is meant to be a long period game. 

The unhealthy spot that I see. Is that To reach end game with harvesting just one resource type. Can take years. And which I would imagine is a massive turn off to new players. But then we have to realize that there will be servers with upwards of 500 people. I believe this extreme training time is to help prevent the market from become massively overloaded in rare materials, essentially removing any worth from them at all. 

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35 minutes ago, pang said:

oh I dunno, maybe it turns the game into a MOBA with longer matches? If that type of game is what one wants then great you're in luck go pick one from the hundreds already available.

Well by that thinking about the only thing keeping campaigns from being a MOBA with longer matches is the passive training, so it's pretty much that type of game already.

I tend to think it's more about the fact that guilds/teams/politics are all dynamic and unrestricted to even sided teams in a limited environment designed to eliminate losers as the world ages that makes it not a MOBA.

But if you want to hang your hat on passive skills as the defining difference between CF and a MOBA, that's your prerogative.

 

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22 minutes ago, SirGeorge said:

 

The unhealthy spot that I see. Is that To reach end game with harvesting just one resource type. Can take years. And which I would imagine is a massive turn off to new players. But then we have to realize that there will be servers with upwards of 500 people. I believe this extreme training time is to help prevent the market from become massively overloaded in rare materials, essentially removing any worth from them at all. 

The restriction should not just be dependent on training time, which is way too long and become less useful as a tool as more and more players have the time to train, the restriction should be on world availability of said resources.

It doesn't matter if 10,000 player all have maxed harvesting, if there are only 5 nodes to fight over to harvest.

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I am with the crowd that likes the passive training concept as a 1/3 to 1/4 piece of the progression meta.  Again the only fix needed is to front load the training with T1 and T2 nodes that just take a day or 2 days to complete in every single skill tree and to add about 2 dozen nodes to every tree (gives a lot of satisfaction to ding through lots of nodes in your first couple weeks).   Give VIP paying players the ability to queue 3 additional nodes in this scenario as well but make pay to play basic accounts pay more regular attention to stay up on the front end of joining when they are excited about starting.  

With the rework of the gathering skills we now have the first tree simply unlocking the ability to hit higher tier material sources and if each unlock takes maybe 10 days instead of 2 months players will be useful as harvesters in just over a week.   In this case going after higher tier nodes will cost in tools through decay but small quantities of higher end materials (blues and purples) and the gems and minerals CAN be acquired after just 10 days of training...   The familiarity skill line is where we get to increase the gathering efficiencies through tool decay decreases, plentiful and critical harvests.  I absolutely think they got this rework right, just the early nodes need to be much faster to unlock the basic ability to gather while the familiarity line is the one that takes months to get more efficient harvests and complete the line.  Keep all the basic trees in T1 and T2 nodes except the final node being T3 that takes 5 days...  the entire excavation basics is then just 35 days and that last node does give you a better chance to pop gems, minerals, and body parts.  In this easy fix a player is quickly useful and the choice is do I go broad and finish the ability to hit and pen ore, stone, and graves or go into the grueling stone familiarity to get higher efficiency, quality, and amounts of stone.   As well, the basic combat line is also a 35 days...  10 days to get the CC nodes, 10 days to get armor basics or 10 days to get weapon basic and unlock those familiarity lines the possibility exists to be a one trick basic harvester with decent combat skills within the first month also exists.   In the same note basic crafting it is 10 days to unlock one craft familiarity.   The alternate exploration trees vessels, tracking, and animal husbandry should also fall into this same timing...   in 10 days you unlock familiarity.

In fact a player with a single account could potentially gather, craft, and fight at the completed basic skill level as an option, a real hybrid option without being gimped in the same amount of time another player gets one single familiarity line completed.   The veteran player is getting more quality but not necessarily higher quality materials.  In just 10 days a full group of players can knock down a T10 node but will pay a high price in crappy picks breaking after each node and likely face a zero sum game, but it can be done.

I believe that we are headed in the right direction and most of this will be solved.

HEY!  We can edit again!  HUZZAH!

Edited by Frykka

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18 hours ago, ringhloth said:

Nodes don't have equal value. The ends of trees are better than middle nodes, and are usually more efficient time-wise. Not only that, but skills are multiplicative in their effect - with more skills, you not only gather more, but you gather better and faster. But skills are more linear than it seems, at least to train to full skill. I mean, the gap between two days and 8 days for a skill isn't that huge - compare to EVE where the gap is 8 minutes to something like 8 days. They're changing something about skill design, and there might be a way to train half the skill before you move on, but that still doesn't solve the quadratic power effect. I mean, drinking one pot is okay. Drinking two is good. Drinking three and ore is practically raining from the sky. Crowfall is, at least as the game stands right now, a game with quadratic power advancement for linear costs.

I absolutely believe in fixing this spreading every valuable node out into 4-5 progressive tier nodes so it does become true diminishing returns in every skill line.


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34 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I am with the crowd that likes the passive training concept as a 1/3 to 1/4 piece of the progression meta.  Again the only fix needed is to front load the training with T1 and T2 nodes that just take a day or 2 days to complete in every single skill tree and to add about 2 dozen nodes to every tree (gives a lot of satisfaction to ding through lots of nodes in your first couple weeks).   Give VIP paying players the ability to queue 3 additional nodes in this scenario as well but make pay to play basic accounts pay more regular attention to stay up on the front end of joining when they are excited about starting.  

With the rework of the gathering skills we now have the first tree simply unlocking the ability to hit higher tier material sources and if each unlock takes maybe 10 days instead of 2 months players will be useful as harvesters in just over a week.   In this case going after higher tier nodes will cost in tools through decay but small quantities of higher end materials (blues and purples) and the gems and minerals CAN be acquired after just 10 days of training...   The familiarity skill line is where we get to increase the gathering efficiencies through tool decay decreases, plentiful and critical harvests.  I absolutely think they got this rework right, just the early nodes need to be much faster to unlock the basic ability to gather while the familiarity line is the one that takes months to get more efficient harvests and complete the line.  Keep all the basic trees in T1 and T2 nodes except the final node being T3 that takes 5 days...  the entire excavation basics is then just 35 days and that last node does give you a better chance to pop gems, minerals, and body parts.  In this easy fix a player is quickly useful and the choice is do I go broad and finish the ability to hit and pen ore, stone, and graves or go into the grueling stone familiarity to get higher efficiency, quality, and amounts of stone.   As well, the basic combat line is also a 35 days...  10 days to get the CC nodes, 10 days to get armor basics or 10 days to get weapon basic and unlock those familiarity lines the possibility exists to be a one trick basic harvester with decent combat skills within the first month also exists.   In the same note basic crafting it is 10 days to unlock one craft familiarity.   The alternate exploration trees vessels, tracking, and animal husbandry should also fall into this same timing...   in 10 days you unlock familiarity.

In fact a player with a single account could potentially gather, craft, and fight at the completed basic skill level as an option, a real hybrid option without being gimped in the same amount of time another player gets one single familiarity line completed.   The veteran player is getting more quality but not necessarily higher quality materials.  In just 10 days a full group of players can knock down a T10 node but will pay a high price in crappy picks breaking after each node and likely face a zero sum game, but it can be done.

I believe that we are headed in the right direction and most of this will be solved.

HEY!  We can edit again!  HUZZAH!

I think the first step may be to change the time it takes to knock down a tier from 3 days to 1.  A part of the problem is if you start with minimums of 3 days to train, it's hard build any fast train items into it.

I am not saying make all the tier 6 level 6 days, those should be moved to tier 18 to compensate.  What I am saying is that a minimum resolution of 3 day jumps is just not flexible enough to make some nodes "fast", and others slow.  

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think the first step may be to change the time it takes to knock down a tier from 3 days to 1.  A part of the problem is if you start with minimums of 3 days to train, it's hard build any fast train items into it.

I am not saying make all the tier 6 level 6 days, those should be moved to tier 18 to compensate.  What I am saying is that a minimum resolution of 3 day jumps is just not flexible enough to make some nodes "fast", and others slow.  

The more I think about it as a Fibonacci sequence starting at 1 day, the more I like it and the diminishing returns get real.   T1-1 day, T2-2 days, T3-3 days, T4-5 days, T5-8 days, T6-13 days, T7-21 days, T8-34 days, T9-55 days, T10-89 days.   Blair needs to spread out all those super stronk AT line nodes and unlocks into a series of sequentially tiered nodes.  He can always use several same tier nodes in a row to adjust the training times.  This is more the diminishing returns for equalized node strength I envisioned from the start.

Besides that all living things certainly have an affinity for the golden ratio right, even gamers.


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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The more I think about it as a Fibonacci sequence starting at 1 day, the more I like it and the diminishing returns get real.   T1-1 day, T2-2 days, T3-3 days, T4-5 days, T5-8 days, T6-13 days, T7-21 days, T8-34 days, T9-55 days, T10-89 days.   Blair needs to spread out all those super stronk AT line nodes and unlocks into a series of sequentially tiered nodes.  He can always use several same tier nodes in a row to adjust the training times.  This is more the diminishing returns for equalized node strength I envisioned from the start.

Besides that all living things certainly have an affinity for the golden ratio right, even gamers.

The Fibonacci sequence would be perfect.

EDITS:  YAY!

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The Fibonacci series would be perfect.

 

And we are all nerdy enough for it to be a no brainer.

JUST nerdy enough mind you...   cool kids know how to nerd with style.

Edited by Frykka

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I can barely stand T6 skills with 18 days to train, but 89 HOLY MOLLY That's pergatory! Just divide by 3!

T1=1 Day, T2=3 days, T3=6 days, T4= 9 days, T5= 12 Days, T6= 15 Days, T7= 18 days, T9= 21 days, T10= 24 days

No skill should take more than 30 days to train, at minimum IMO (even if anything above 2 weeks is soul crushing)


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13 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I can barely stand T6 skills with 18 days to train, but 89 HOLY MOLLY That's pergatory! Just divide by 3!

T1=1 Day, T2=3 days, T3=6 days, T4= 9 days, T5= 12 Days, T6= 15 Days, T7= 18 days, T9= 21 days, T10= 24 days

No skill should take more than 30 days to train, at minimum IMO (even if anything above 2 weeks is soul crushing)

I don't agree. What about "Recipe for Mountain Citadel".

That sounds like a 89 day sort of thing I could get behind. In fact, a few special epic T10 recipes at the end of all crafting lines would be pretty cool, and make it take longer to diversify the training pool.  

But yea, anything above tier 7 (21 days) would have to be something super special.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't agree. What about "Recipe for Mountain Citadel".

That sounds like a 89 day sort of thing I could get behind.

I doubt there'd be a "Mountain Citadel Recipe"; if anything it'd be "Mountain Citadel Throneroom Recipe" and "Mountain Citadel Parcel Recipe", neither of which I believe should take 3 months to learn., the rest of the citadel would be made of castle walls, towers, and houses, considering what we know about the current iteration of stronghold building.


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The feeling of being so far behind in Eve was one of the big turnoffs for me. When I tried to start playing people basically told me I needed to just train for a month or two and not even bother playing until I had certain baseline things trained. That and the combat is akin to an excel spreadsheet.

My thought is cash shop XP boosts (similar to what WoW does with level boosts) but it shouldn't give more than whatever minimum amount of skill points is needed to be viable in one area so you don't have to wait a month or two to play the game. 

This shouldn't be needed until 6 months to a year after release though. 

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23 hours ago, yoink said:

I know AC has mentioned that there will be some sort of catch up mechanic for new players joining down the line. I would like to see a catch up mechanic. Might make it less daunting for a new player to join down the line.

Some sort of accelerated training tied to micro transactions or VIP might work and make VIP worth something to late comers. Say the game goes live today, 6 months down the line a new players starts up and is able to get 6 months worth double speed training. Maybe you can pay more for a month worth of triple or quad time. Maybe a 1 time fee to just get caught up? Would this be good, bad? Would a new player look at this and think it sucks, now you have to buy the game and shell out money just to catch up?

Maybe some sort of active skill advancement from playing the game. Tied to VIP again maybe. Maybe just enabled when you are behind a certain amount.

These systems should never allow you to surpass the amount that you would have if you were a day 1 account, only allow you to catch up.

What are your thoughts on ways to "catch up" for the passive training? Should there even be one? If so what would you like to see? Keep in mind that if you are reading this these hypothetical systems most likely will not directly affect you at all.

VIP would be worth, imo, with 3 AT training slots, priority CW queue, and mobile-portal skill training access. That is enough incentive, imo, to justify the cost without causing any concern of pay2win.   

In terms of "catching up" I've always been and will continue to be a proponent of active skill training to a certain threshold, ~25% of a skill for argument's sake. This would allow newcomers to put their 'nose to the grindstone', if they are so inclined, to give a boost to skill training times. We could even go one step further and make the active training portion only available to VIP, if people need even more incentive than what I mentioned above to commit on that front. 


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1 hour ago, coolster50 said:

I can barely stand T6 skills with 18 days to train, but 89 HOLY MOLLY That's pergatory! Just divide by 3!

T1=1 Day, T2=3 days, T3=6 days, T4= 9 days, T5= 12 Days, T6= 15 Days, T7= 18 days, T9= 21 days, T10= 24 days

No skill should take more than 30 days to train, at minimum IMO (even if anything above 2 weeks is soul crushing)

That has NO diminishing returns cool and thus has no catch up mechanic built in...   T10 would only be the last node in the final tree anyway... the last training you would ever do in that whole skill, the grand finale that takes 3 months and in the time it takes to train it any brand new player would catch up to over half of that total skill line so you are not even close to as far ahead.   that is the whole idea...    the Tiers can be dramatically scaled and if the devs what to make it more accessible they can just use several T2s or T3s in a row   compare a 15 day run that is T2-T2-T3-T3-T4 in my sequence and is the same as the 15 days for the single T6 node...   a new player completes 5 nodes for 5x the value of what you get for one node.   they will never catch up but you will be less and less far ahead.

Edited by Frykka

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The fact that the game is not even released and its players are discussing catch up mechanics is very telling.  The power you can gain from the AT training is absolutely disgusting and needs to be toned down exponentially IMO.

The system of how we gain skills is fine IMO.  What needs to happen is a drastic reduction in power that one gets from just waiting for a bar to fill up.  These skills that have +10% crit chance, +30% crit damage need to go or be severely neutered.  The current power curve gains from AT training is nuts.  If it was more in line with the numbers we see from the weapons trees in the general skill lines I don't think it would be a huge issue.  IMO these types of major gains in power should be from how the player wants to kit their character out with the stats and abilities from vessels, gear, and disciplines and not from just waiting for a bar to fill up.

IMO a new player should not have to wait months to get to point where they are not fodder and hitting limp wristed.  The skill system should be designed so that there is no need for catch up mechanics.


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53 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The feeling of being so far behind in Eve was one of the big turnoffs for me. When I tried to start playing people basically told me I needed to just train for a month or two and not even bother playing until I had certain baseline things trained. That and the combat is akin to an excel spreadsheet.

My thought is cash shop XP boosts (similar to what WoW does with level boosts) but it shouldn't give more than whatever minimum amount of skill points is needed to be viable in one area so you don't have to wait a month or two to play the game. 

This shouldn't be needed until 6 months to a year after release though. 

Having to buy cash shop items to stay relevant if you start late is basically the definition of PTW, and that would basically kill Crowfall.

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8 hours ago, chancellor said:

2. Passive skill training is less of a grind than active training, and it gives casual players an even footing with play-the-game-like-a-job players. This is important in MMO PvP games.

3. This is also a CF basic design feature. If you hate them so much, "CF will not be for everyone", U can always go back to playing WoW "professionally".

4. Only problems need solutions.

5. Horrible Idea! This would turn campaign worlds into extended MOBAs. MMORPG players want to play games with characters who gain skill over a long time, not totally new characters every time the server resets. League of legends is very popular, and seems to have "pro-gamer" followers such as you claim to be (hint).

6. Whatever the catch-up mechanic winds up being, assuming CF lasts long enough to need one, catch-up should never allow a new player to get more than about half the experience theoretically possible from a player starting training at soft launch and never letting the 4 training cues go idle. 

2. Passive training does even the field for two that start on the same day, not so when they start days/months/years a part. Unlike grindy games, there is nothing a player can do actively to decrease the gap. Some form of "balance" is fairly important to me in a MMO PVP game when it comes to effortless features like passive training. Being at a disadvantage potentially forever simply because of install date doesn't bring much to competition.

3. They've also changed basic design features (Crows/Vessels added) so what the game will be isn't set in stone yet for people to figure out if it will be for them or not.

4. A built in power balance issue seems like a problem to me.

5. As a MMORPG player, I want to gain "skill" over time, but to me that looks like knowledge/experience and options not tied directly to vertical power as it currently does. While I would enjoy some form of reset/wipe option as VN suggested, I do see how folks wouldn't like it. However, something will need to happen to correct what is correctly going to be an issue.

6. One can never gain the "experience" learned from playing the game nor the resources, gear, rewards, etc. Wanting to be at an advantage due to install date shows that you don't want conflicts to come down to player "skill" and choices, but rather who has clicked nodes and watched time tick away longer. To me this is an empty feature and not one I want to benefit from. Honestly don't get why people believe they deserve a un-skilled/effortless advantage because they installed the game earlier.

7 hours ago, pang said:

How is that different then past games though? You said untrained vs trained, which is equivalent to say a lvl 1 vs high lvl in traditional quest grinder lvl games. So a lvl 1 should be able to hold his own versus a high lvl player? Interesting but not likely a very popular view.

If the power curve is shallow like they say they want it then CF will be in a much better place then lvl based games as far as the power gap goes.  

"If" the power curve is shallow is a key point. Currently between training and gear, it isn't that shallow or at least close to be an even field for a new vs vet player. Maybe not as large of a gap as a traditional MMO, but it exists all the same. I would like them to offer more options instead of vertical power, but so far they seem to be going for the latter.

A new player lacks experience/gear/resources to hold their own, all of which can be earned/obtained over time. However, passive training will always be a gap and unfair advantage to those that come before. At least with how it works now. I see no problem with a new player being caught up training wise and using whatever skill/resources they have to take on vets. If a vet loses to a new player because of this, to me this is a sign they were outplayed, not out-passive trained.

6 hours ago, SirGeorge said:

Combat

Crafting

Harvesting

Combat: 1v1 and small scale combat has a been a large part of every open world PVP game I've played. Siege won't be happening 24/7 from what I can tell, nor massive battles out in the open. Fighting over POI/resources and what not likely will take up a large amount of time and hopefully don't require 100s all day everyday as the game would need a huge population to do so.

One or a few having 20% might not be a big deal in a large battle, but what if all 10 have it in a 10v10 and the other side doesn't. Or even 100v100? Makes it hard for new guilds/players to join the game and be competitive. Tactics and strat should be a big factor, but having a power advantage thanks to install date surely will play a part and might be the deciding factor in some situations.

Crafting/Harvesting: How will a new player become viable if older players will always be at an advantage in likely every way? Unlike Combat that relies on gear and player skill along with training, Non-Combat roles seem much more reliant on time gated power/options. One can't actively make themselves stronger/better in trades from what I can tell.

Maybe vets will hit a speed cap and new players will catch up, but this could take a long time and might not be enjoyable in the meantime.

Believe we need to see a more polished system to get an idea of how it will all work out, but I personally wouldn't want to join the game a year in with the current system.

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1 hour ago, destrin said:

The fact that the game is not even released and its players are discussing catch up mechanics is very telling.  The power you can gain from the AT training is absolutely disgusting and needs to be toned down exponentially IMO.

The system of how we gain skills is fine IMO.  What needs to happen is a drastic reduction in power that one gets from just waiting for a bar to fill up.  These skills that have +10% crit chance, +30% crit damage need to go or be severely neutered.  The current power curve gains from AT training is nuts.  If it was more in line with the numbers we see from the weapons trees in the general skill lines I don't think it would be a huge issue.  IMO these types of major gains in power should be from how the player wants to kit their character out with the stats and abilities from vessels, gear, and disciplines and not from just waiting for a bar to fill up.

IMO a new player should not have to wait months to get to point where they are not fodder and hitting limp wristed.  The skill system should be designed so that there is no need for catch up mechanics.

Split all those super nodes into 5 equal parts in a row like the crafting or harvesting trees and make those nodes tier up properly for diminishing returns.   It can be easily fixed and front loaded so the game is fun and you have some noticeable power gain in just the first 10 days before the longer diminishing returns set in...   the AT trees need to be seriously stretched out and need to start with T1-T2 nodes like all the other trees and then progress through every node tier and not jump to T3 and then to T6.


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