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Thoughts or ideas on skill training "catch up" system

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2 hours ago, Frykka said:

The diminishing returns of the skill trees is the progression of tiers of the nodes...  T1 to T10.  Yes each node has a built in diminishing return AND T10 will take 1000% longer than T1 to complete.   Because both the nodes and the Tiers have DR it actually does staircase the progression and the relative power between players starting the game at different times.   Graphing it though you would still see the newer player significantly catching up over time.  There are literally TONS of tweeks to the nodes, the timers and entire trees to come.   Many are just placeholders.  For a solid DR plan, every node regardless of tier should be of equal power to the players.  These powers add and do not multiply as far I can see although there are quite a few very powerful T6 nodes in mote Archetype skill tree. These will all get another pass before closed beta.

But that doesn't really fix starting an account 3-4 years after the game starts. That's more of a thing for someone who starts a few months later. And that isn't even necessarily true, because if skills are multiplicative in giving power, which they certainly can be as you can see in the gathering tree, and using multiple potions versus just one (gathering faster, gathering more, and gathering higher quality materials is definitely a multiplicative relationship), then you might be getting power faster than your friend who is getting more stats.

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3 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

But that doesn't really fix starting an account 3-4 years after the game starts. That's more of a thing for someone who starts a few months later. And that isn't even necessarily true, because if skills are multiplicative in giving power, which they certainly can be as you can see in the gathering tree, and using multiple potions versus just one (gathering faster, gathering more, and gathering higher quality materials is definitely a multiplicative relationship), then you might be getting power faster than your friend who is getting more stats.

Potions go away entirely, skills are not multiplicative, the same applies over any period of time...   however if additional catch up is necessary it will be 2 years in and after the game is a success.  Let us hope we DO need a catch up mechanism down the road.

Edited by Frykka

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13 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Potions go away entirely, skills are not multiplicative, the same applies over any period of time...   however if additional catch up is necessary it will be 2 years in and after the game is a success.  Let us hope we DO need a catch up mechanism down the road.

Potions illustrate the multiplicity of the power gain when it comes to skills. And it shouldn't be surprising when you look at it - if I have a skill that gives me 10% more ore, that's 110% of the value I was getting before. If I have a skill that gives me 10% better quality ore on top of that, I don't have 120% of the value I was getting before - I have 121%. That might not seems like an issue, but when you're getting 5-10x more materials, of 5-10x quality, 2-3x as fast, that's a huge multiplier - way more than just adding the numbers together. Ultimately, diminishing returns do not solve the problem - someone will still always be ahead, it just looks like they aren't as far ahead.

Edited by ringhloth

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It is all relative though, the build up to 80% of full output being faster than the last 20%...   and both quality and quantity output requires a critical result so you are not getting those multiplied results every node.  Another point is economic power may win the CW but Combat power wins the battle... in most cases the catch up is generally described in terms of competing in a fight, not at the marketplace.   A player joining late should not expect to compete in the dregs unless he joins a dregs top guild and gets better gear through that network...  he will be able to contribute more and more over time eventually being essentially equal to others who have player longer.   In every case the power gap closes over time.  Most newer players and newer guilds should join the outer rings first where their peers in power are playing.  And all potions do not multiply the results of a critical result...   potions do not go beyond the max training, they only bring a player up to it, they do not multiply the results, they simply add skill %

Edited by Frykka

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2 hours ago, Frykka said:

EbrVIAr.png

Graphing 6 tiers of equal power each with diminishing returns and each Tier taking longer.

and if you wait a bit longer, until they reach the top of the skilltree and start a new tree, the power gap is the same like in the beginning ;)

this only works for skills that have endless training time and always get better.

Edited by Gromschlog

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48 minutes ago, Frykka said:

It is all relative though, the build up to 80% of full output being faster than the last 20%...   and both quality and quantity output requires a critical result so you are not getting those multiplied results every node.  Another point is economic power may win the CW but Combat power wins the battle... in most cases the catch up is generally described in terms of competing in a fight, not at the marketplace.   A player joining late should not expect to compete in the dregs unless he joins a dregs top guild and gets better gear through that network...  he will be able to contribute more and more over time eventually being essentially equal to others who have player longer.   In every case the power gap closes over time.  Most newer players and newer guilds should join the outer rings first where their peers in power are playing.  And all potions do not multiply the results of a critical result...   potions do not go beyond the max training, they only bring a player up to it, they do not multiply the results, they simply add skill %

Potions show what skills at top tiers look like. Take one potion. You don't see much of a difference. Take two potions. There's a modest difference, definitely bigger than the gap between no and one potion. Take three potions. The difference is massive.

2 minutes ago, Gromschlog said:

and if you wait a bit longer, until they reach the top of the skilltree and start a new tree, the power gap is the same like in the beginning ;)

No, it isn't.

Edited by ringhloth

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19 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

Potions show what skills at top tiers look like. Take one potion. You don't see much of a difference. Take two potions. There's a modest difference, definitely bigger than the gap between no and one potion. Take three potions. The difference is massive.

But you reach the equivalence of three potions in the same amount of skill training time it takes to get from the third to the fourth... 


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26 minutes ago, Gromschlog said:

and if you wait a bit longer, until they reach the top of the skilltree and start a new tree, the power gap is the same like in the beginning ;)

this only works for skills that have endless training time and always get better.

Cumulative power gaps have the same effect...  besides no player will complete a skill tree one at a time.  Players will jump and complete the early half of the most important trees for their play style.  Eventually they will either be jack of all trades with an equal power gap in all skills but no overwhelming powers or start into the longer more time consuming nodes letting the newer player do the first half of multiple skills as well.


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11 hours ago, ringhloth said:

No, it isn't.

Okay, the relative power gap is not.

The absolute power gap is.

As soon as the first player is done with the first tree and starts a new one, which second player wants to train too, the exact same thing happens. they dont come nearer which they would if they trained the same thing forever, they always have the same absolute power gap (which raises whenever player1 starts a new tree and then slowly gets smaller until player one starts the next tree), if they train the same skills.

Edited by Gromschlog

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13 hours ago, Frykka said:

Cumulative power gaps have the same effect...  besides no player will complete a skill tree one at a time.  Players will jump and complete the early half of the most important trees for their play style.  Eventually they will either be jack of all trades with an equal power gap in all skills but no overwhelming powers or start into the longer more time consuming nodes letting the newer player do the first half of multiple skills as well.

I'm pretty sure the design philosophy is trying to discourage the jack of all trades.

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2 hours ago, ringhloth said:

I'm pretty sure the design philosophy is trying to discourage the jack of all trades.

I'm pretty sure the design philosophy has nothing against jacks of all trades as long as they are masters of none.

Decisions should matter ;)

good groups will clearly prefer 5 masters in their field over 5 jacks of all trades where none of them is able to produce anything really good. so for everyone interested in groupplay, it should be much better to train something as masterful as possible.

however, there will always be solo-players, no matter how bad their playstyle fits into this game. For a solo-player, training everything and being able to do everything (even if bad) is clearly better than being able to craft the best weapons, but being naked and starving.

Edited by Gromschlog

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Had another idea for an in game "catch up" mechanic, sacrifice training.

Personally, I like the passive training, but the fact is adding it took away one of the staple enjoyments some people get from playing these games, active progress of a character. Sure getting better stuff is the chosen active progress model, but it's not quite the same.No matter what I do I can't improve my training rate, and people like me (Achievers) tend to really enjoy doing that sort of thing.

They did mention active training at one point for "proficiency" but never really defined that, so I was thinking along those lines a bit, and came up with another model than just using a specific skill. 

So the idea is, you increase the speed of all training if you have preformed a sacrifice, like a training buff. The sacrifice is the common currency of the land, all earned in game, and the same stuff taxes are based on. The time and buff is based on the value of sacrifice, based on a table that describes each. with a Fibonacci model to describe cost per layer.  (E.G. 100 dust gets you 12 hours, 200 24 hours, 300 36 hours, 500 48 hours, and so on.) Or another way, it changes the speed multiplier for a set period (E.G. for 24 hours, 100 dust gets you 2.00, 200 2.05, 300 2.10, 500 2.15, 800 2.20 etc). 

As a catch up mechanic, new accounts get a free period of this being on with a very high multiplier without sacrifice

As an economic tool, it would make currency have another base line value that ACE could tweak if over supply of currency and inflation becomes a problem.

I don't know, it doesn't entirely cover what I think is the biggest problem of early crafting and harvesting not being fun until trained a few nodes, but that's a different and I think much bigger problem than catch up.  I do think adding some sort of optional passive training boost to active players, is something the game is currently lacking.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Soo... after some weeks i finally reached a point in the skilltrees, where I realize that I cannot train the final trait because I just unlocked one path there and not every single path...

If everyone needs to train every single trait in a traittree to unlock the final trait and therefore the following traittrees... Then where do decisions matter and where is diversity? If this stays as is, training might as well be completely linear within each traittree.

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On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:26 AM, Gromschlog said:

I'm pretty sure the design philosophy has nothing against jacks of all trades as long as they are masters of none.

Decisions should matter ;)

good groups will clearly prefer 5 masters in their field over 5 jacks of all trades where none of them is able to produce anything really good. so for everyone interested in groupplay, it should be much better to train something as masterful as possible.

however, there will always be solo-players, no matter how bad their playstyle fits into this game. For a solo-player, training everything and being able to do everything (even if bad) is clearly better than being able to craft the best weapons, but being naked and starving.

Look at the excavation basics tree...   If you are excavating for gems, minerals and body additives rather than better quantities and qualities of ones specific type of ore, stone, or body then it is better to complete all three basic lines and get the final node that gives 5% more chance of gems, minerals, and body additives rather than going into any familiarity line.   Jack of all excavations is pretty useful for obtaining what will make rings and vessels.  


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21 hours ago, Gromschlog said:

Soo... after some weeks i finally reached a point in the skilltrees, where I realize that I cannot train the final trait because I just unlocked one path there and not every single path...

If everyone needs to train every single trait in a traittree to unlock the final trait and therefore the following traittrees... Then where do decisions matter and where is diversity? If this stays as is, training might as well be completely linear within each traittree.

Pretty much.

Picking rocks or graves, leather or plate, horsey or bull seem to be the depth of training choices. Pick something and stick to it and be like everyone else that does the same. Or branch out and be mediocre in several areas. Or buy multiple accounts.

In-game active choices (gear/disciplines) are to be the main source of diversity.

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8 hours ago, APE said:

Pretty much.

Picking rocks or graves, leather or plate, horsey or bull seem to be the depth of training choices. Pick something and stick to it and be like everyone else that does the same. Or branch out and be mediocre in several areas. Or buy multiple accounts.

In-game active choices (gear/disciplines) are to be the main source of diversity.

So then, choices are only relevant for fighters? Soo cool...

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2 hours ago, Gromschlog said:

So then, choices are only relevant for fighters? Soo cool...

 No no.. You have tons of choices. Gathering Disciplines are going to let you do amazing things with gathering like.

Hit rocks.

In 3 months.

To get more stuff!

If they treated combat like Gathering or god forbid Crafting can you imagine the screams?

Hmm like Crafting into combat.

When walking across a field you have a 97% chance to walk safely. But every now and again. You break your ankle. - 50% hit points - 50% movement speed. Oh and sorry we are having issues with the randomizer you got a streak and your Archtype died. But that is fine. Risk vrs reward right? Or better yet. Sorry only a 3 percent chance of a heart attack. You will be fine. Go Fight. Have fun!

Oh you want to swing your sword. No problem. You do have some training right? Oh no? Pity. You have a 50% miss chance then Go get some skills. Yeah it will take 3 months of skills training before you get good. And then it is a 5% increase! that is like 10% to total skills even!

Or more like gathering. 

Sorry you cant fight Templars yet. You need skill training to fight that archtype. Right now you miss 90% of your swings, but no worries 3 months and you can fight a templar. Have fun. Ooo a confessor nope need to train. Sorry Ranger nah you got a while before you can affect them. Warrior, nope right out. Need training. What are you people bitching about, you just got done training for 3 days and can now hit a templar 5% more often. In 4-5 months you will be fine. Now go play!



 
 

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8 minutes ago, srathor said:

 No no.. You have tons of choices. Gathering Disciplines are going to let you do amazing things with gathering like.

Hit rocks.

In 3 months.

To get more stuff!

If they treated combat like Gathering or god forbid Crafting can you imagine the screams?

Hmm like Crafting into combat.

When walking across a field you have a 97% chance to walk safely. But every now and again. You break your ankle. - 50% hit points - 50% movement speed. Oh and sorry we are having issues with the randomizer you got a streak and your Archtype died. But that is fine. Risk vrs reward right? Or better yet. Sorry only a 3 percent chance of a heart attack. You will be fine. Go Fight. Have fun!

Oh you want to swing your sword. No problem. You do have some training right? Oh no? Pity. You have a 50% miss chance then Go get some skills. Yeah it will take 3 months of skills training before you get good. And then it is a 5% increase! that is like 10% to total skills even!

Or more like gathering. 

Sorry you cant fight Templars yet. You need skill training to fight that archtype. Right now you miss 90% of your swings, but no worries 3 months and you can fight a templar. Have fun. Ooo a confessor nope need to train. Sorry Ranger nah you got a while before you can affect them. Warrior, nope right out. Need training. What are you people bitching about, you just got done training for 3 days and can now hit a templar 5% more often. In 4-5 months you will be fine. Now go play!



 
 

Not gonna lie, I got a huge laugh out of this one! GG!


.

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10 minutes ago, srathor said:

 No no.. You have tons of choices. Gathering Disciplines are going to let you do amazing things with gathering like.

Hit rocks.

In 3 months.

To get more stuff!

If they treated combat like Gathering or god forbid Crafting can you imagine the screams?

Hmm like Crafting into combat.

When walking across a field you have a 97% chance to walk safely. But every now and again. You break your ankle. - 50% hit points - 50% movement speed. Oh and sorry we are having issues with the randomizer you got a streak and your Archtype died. But that is fine. Risk vrs reward right? Or better yet. Sorry only a 3 percent chance of a heart attack. You will be fine. Go Fight. Have fun!

Oh you want to swing your sword. No problem. You do have some training right? Oh no? Pity. You have a 50% miss chance then Go get some skills. Yeah it will take 3 months of skills training before you get good. And then it is a 5% increase! that is like 10% to total skills even!

Or more like gathering. 

Sorry you cant fight Templars yet. You need skill training to fight that archtype. Right now you miss 90% of your swings, but no worries 3 months and you can fight a templar. Have fun. Ooo a confessor nope need to train. Sorry Ranger nah you got a while before you can affect them. Warrior, nope right out. Need training. What are you people bitching about, you just got done training for 3 days and can now hit a templar 5% more often. In 4-5 months you will be fine. Now go play!



 
 

A pvp game would flop if the crafters and harvesters were actually more important than the combat itself.  So it's best to be a bit practical about such things. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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