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Thoughts or ideas on skill training "catch up" system

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3 hours ago, srathor said:

 No no.. You have tons of choices. Gathering Disciplines are going to let you do amazing things with gathering like.

Hit rocks.

In 3 months.

To get more stuff!

If they treated combat like Gathering or god forbid Crafting can you imagine the screams?

Hmm like Crafting into combat.

When walking across a field you have a 97% chance to walk safely. But every now and again. You break your ankle. - 50% hit points - 50% movement speed. Oh and sorry we are having issues with the randomizer you got a streak and your Archtype died. But that is fine. Risk vrs reward right? Or better yet. Sorry only a 3 percent chance of a heart attack. You will be fine. Go Fight. Have fun!

Oh you want to swing your sword. No problem. You do have some training right? Oh no? Pity. You have a 50% miss chance then Go get some skills. Yeah it will take 3 months of skills training before you get good. And then it is a 5% increase! that is like 10% to total skills even!

Or more like gathering. 

Sorry you cant fight Templars yet. You need skill training to fight that archtype. Right now you miss 90% of your swings, but no worries 3 months and you can fight a templar. Have fun. Ooo a confessor nope need to train. Sorry Ranger nah you got a while before you can affect them. Warrior, nope right out. Need training. What are you people bitching about, you just got done training for 3 days and can now hit a templar 5% more often. In 4-5 months you will be fine. Now go play!



 
 

Sad but true. Parts of me giggled as you wrote funny, parts got depressed because its so true... If there was the option to highlight a post per week to make a dev think about it, this one would be it for me.

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10 hours ago, Gromschlog said:

So then, choices are only relevant for fighters? Soo cool...

No real difference.

If you decide to focus on Combat, you pick an AT (or multiple with VIP) and then are limited on what Weapon paths to go down and likely will focus on one Armor type due to time cost. Not much different than non-combat paths.

Hopefully training unlocks (recipes, promo classes) will make training a bit more "choices matter" with a bit of diversity within a particular choice. Also Disciplines for all roles should help, but we'll have to see how creative they get.

What MMOs (or whatever) offer a system you'd like ACE to aim for? I don't know of many that get that creative. I'd rather see quality over quantity and not a complex mess of options that result in people being 1% different even though they made 100 different choices.

8 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

A pvp game would flop if the crafters and harvesters were actually more important than the combat itself.  So it's best to be a bit practical about such things. 

I agree about being practical, but when they are supposedly designing the game with non-combat roles being full time and requiring the same if not more time/effort to improve vs combat, non-combat should have a decent degree of depth/enjoyment then what is typical in MMOs.

While I don't usually enjoy such things, there is nothing about CF's crafting/gathering that gets my attention where as at least in other games I might grind out a trade or gather while out in the world if it is secondary to my main goals. I'm sure some love clicking nodes, waiting, and holding F in game, but I'm guessing they wouldn't mind it being a little bit more stimulating.

"PVP" comes in many flavors and political/economic conflict can be as fun and important as stab stab stab.

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13 hours ago, APE said:

I agree about being practical, but when they are supposedly designing the game with non-combat roles being full time and requiring the same if not more time/effort to improve vs combat, non-combat should have a decent degree of depth/enjoyment then what is typical in MMOs.

While I don't usually enjoy such things, there is nothing about CF's crafting/gathering that gets my attention where as at least in other games I might grind out a trade or gather while out in the world if it is secondary to my main goals. I'm sure some love clicking nodes, waiting, and holding F in game, but I'm guessing they wouldn't mind it being a little bit more stimulating.

"PVP" comes in many flavors and political/economic conflict can be as fun and important as stab stab stab.

There is never going to be enough depth or enjoyment to crafting and harvesting unless it becomes skill-based.  It's always just going to be whacking some nodes and clicking some crafting buttons. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I've read the summary by @Dominate (ty!) and I liked @VIKINGNAIL's idea for skill resets, but perhaps there's a combination that may quell some concerns over turning it into a MOBA/RPG players wanting permanent progression.  It also blends in the idea of automatically receiving some credit to put towards skill training when you begin the game

The passive system carries on, with whatever tweaks the devs want to give it, but there is an option to 'reset' your training.  The system then credits you for 50%/33%/25% (whatever seems most appropriate) of the time you spent training the reset skills and you can immediately apply that credited time to another tree.  New players would receive the 50%/33%/25% credit when they first played the account, as though the account had been in training since day 1 but then had all the trained skills reset.

This would add a system that let you recalibrate your trained skills, with the penalty of losing 50%/67%/75% of the time spent training the reset skills - i.e. you accidentally went up a tree without understanding the benefits, or maybe you trained Druid but hate it, etc.  There is still 'punishment' for making poor choices, but you aren't totally sunk.  Additionally, it would provide the game with a catch-up system that would let new accounts have the skills to get started on an Archetype & Universal tree.  The new accounts would never match a day 1 account, but they also wouldn't be totally in the dust.

Edited by Izalea

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43 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

There is never going to be enough depth or enjoyment to crafting and harvesting unless it becomes skill-based.  It's always just going to be whacking some nodes and clicking some crafting buttons. 

Only if it's designed that way.

There are a great many ways a well thought out CRAFTING system can be architected to be engaging, interesting, and satisfying well beyond the minute aspects of performing singular actions at points within that entire domain.  "Skill-based" is rather vague and can mean about anything.

As we are talking crafting/harvesting, what was your intent here with "skill based"?

Edited by Bramble
punctuation

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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46 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

There is never going to be enough depth or enjoyment to crafting and harvesting unless it becomes skill-based.  It's always just going to be whacking some nodes and clicking some crafting buttons. 

I agree on harvesting and that can be made into a social skill game fairly easily. For example where the timing of group members participation and having to co-ordinate a mining operation like you would a fight for maximum efficiency, making the skilled player jump from node to node to start and finish them while workers try to keep the nodes in the correct state for the trained player to hit last, and the number of different players hitting the node was tracked so as to produce more results, could be a fun social game.

But I can't imagine a "good" skill based crafting game. Skill games have a huge problem in that someone will master them, possibly even program a bot to master it, and that mastery will matter more than the passive trained skill itself, and totally skew the economy and potentially make ultra rare/difficulty things to do the standard.

I can personally imagine a fruit machine like game where you get to choose some aspects of the randomizers behavior, in much the same way as you can pick your numbers in Roulette or Craps. I posted a suggestion on how that could work with existing mechanics here. A game where you not only pick what you are trying for, but also guess what the RNG is going to do, is a much more entertaining experience than it always being about rolling a 20. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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5 minutes ago, Bramble said:

Only if it's designed that way.

There are a great many ways a well thought out CRAFTING system can be architected to be engaging, interesting, and satisfying well beyond the minute aspects of that game play relating to singular actions at a couple of points within that entire domain.  "Skill-based" is rather vague and can mean about anything.

As we are talking crafting/harvesting, what was your intent here with "skill based"?

Harvesting should require aimed swings, the more precise the swing on a sweet spot the better the harvest.  It should also take skill finding the right kinds of materials and rare should truly be rare and players should have to learn certain tells about terrain formations and spawns should be intuitive based on different types of terrain.

Crafting should require reactive crafting responses, not just some formula and click craft.  The system shouldn't be so simple that people can just make tables after a few days for people to cookbook through.  Beyond that crafting can also require hitting something in the right spot at a crafting station to make it better.   Game developers have it in their head that we must copy this old formula of just combining some mats and hitting craft.  It can be so much more than that. 

Some might say it isn't feasible to make a game with interactive crafting with each profession having its own little mini-game.  But if you aren't willing to put in the effort to make crafting a real game, you can never expect it to have as much depth or engagement as other features that people do put in the effort to make real games.  Such as combat.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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14 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Harvesting should require aimed swings, the more precise the swing on a sweet spot the better the harvest.  It should also take skill finding the right kinds of materials and rare should truly be rare and players should have to learn certain tells about terrain formations and spawns should be intuitive based on different types of terrain.

Crafting should require reactive crafting responses, not just some formula and click craft.  The system shouldn't be so simple that people can just make tables after a few days for people to cookbook through.  Beyond that crafting can also require hitting something in the right spot at a crafting station to make it better.   Game developers have it in their head that we must copy this old formula of just combining some mats and hitting craft.  It can be so much more than that. 

Some might say it isn't feasible to make a game with interactive crafting with each profession having its own little mini-game.  But if you aren't willing to put in the effort to make crafting a real game, you can never expect it to have as much depth or engagement as other features that people do put in the effort to make real games.  Such as combat.

If anyone has played the Beta for Epic Games' FORTNITE, this is how harvesting is handled and it is phenomenal. I consistently have the thought "Why isn't this more like that?"

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Despite some players' wishes, Crowfall is not really an RPG.  Nor a 4X game.

I don't know where all that is coming from, other than marketing hype and pipe dreams.  Like Crowfall is going to be old-school Traveller plus EVE plus Star Citizen plus Tera plus Everquest Next all rolled into one.  

Prioritize and communicate, ACE.  IMO roles should be tertiary.  First a core of group MOBA, second a twist of voxel survival big world CW, and third a dash of RPG.  Don't be afraid to rein in the "role" people, if necessary.  I won't be offended if you have to reassign the Combat Tree into the ATs, because you can't really make all the roles equal combat with the resources you have - harvester, crafter, builder, scout, trader, cook, EK king, etc.

p.s. Going to look up Fortnite.  Sounds fun!

Edited by Dominate

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23 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Harvesting should require aimed swings, the more precise the swing on a sweet spot the better the harvest.  It should also take skill finding the right kinds of materials and rare should truly be rare and players should have to learn certain tells about terrain formations and spawns should be intuitive based on different types of terrain.

Crafting should require reactive crafting responses, not just some formula and click craft.  The system shouldn't be so simple that people can just make tables after a few days for people to cookbook through.  Beyond that crafting can also require hitting something in the right spot at a crafting station to make it better.   Game developers have it in their head that we must copy this old formula of just combining some mats and hitting craft.  It can be so much more than that. 

Some might say it isn't feasible to make a game with interactive crafting with each profession having its own little mini-game.  But if you aren't willing to put in the effort to make crafting a real game, you can never expect it to have as much depth or engagement as other features that people do put in the effort to make real games.  Such as combat.

Another way to look at it however is:  Square Peg vs Round Hole.

We often see people approach "design" with a biased approach.  Often this results in a binary view of solutions to something.  To be more specific here, I have a tendency to view the idea of "Destruction / Death / Combat" as quite different from "Building/Creation/Crafting".  Generally speaking, even taking into account some grey-area overlap in possible approaches that fit, blindly applying approaches that make perfect sense in the Destruction/Combat domain over in a completely dissimilar domain doesn't always make much sense.

"Harvesting should require aimed swings . . ." is an example here.  In Combat there is a clear fit here if the idea is no tab targeting.  Forcing that Combat-fit method into Harvesting/Crafting isn't as clear . . . because the two domains are so dissimilar in spirit / philosophy. 

I've already talked about crafting mini-games in another thread, using the competitive models for Fishing in a couple of other games:  Vanguard and Archeage.  Those are "reaction required" for those specific activities, and are pretty cool.  However, building an entire Crafting/Industry dynamic in an MMO where "player twitch" mini-games are the rule (e.g. Mining aimed swings, or who Planes / Saws / Dimensions wood the most accurately) is ludicrous at this phase of MMO evolution:  You'll have no crafters.

Another more fundamental difference where approaches from the Destruction / Death / Combat domain will miss the mark in many instances:

The act of creation, of building, has a higher component of intellectual engagement than finger-mashing and pew-pew.  While there are some similarities in certain areas, such as strat and tactics, the core issue still remains:  Some people are MORE brain-wired as creators/builders.  To churn the crafting system, whatever it is in a given game regardless of good or bad designed, to supply the guild, friends, what have you.  What drives a CRAFTER (the real thing) isn't the same type of game-interaction as a PvP twitch-bunny, or even a leader of a pack of twitch bunnies.

As I said, there's some overlap.  I completely agree with your statement "It should also take skill finding the right kinds of materials and rare should truly be rare and players should have to learn certain tells about terrain . . ."  That particular observation on your part is spot on, and a round peg/round hole situation.

What I'm suggesting however is: 

  • The "right answer" to Harvesting/Crafting, in specific required mechanics and dynamics, isn't always going to be an answer from the Combat/Destruction side of things.  E.g. everything has to be a point and shoot twitch answer, because that's what makes PvP great.

IMO it's going to be something that is a tailored fit to the Builder/Creator mindset, and what makes Crafting / Harvesting fun and satisfying (as well as challenging, fair enough) right for activities within that domain. 


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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