Svenn

Eternal Kingdoms as Campaign Marketplaces

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So I've been concerned that Eternal Kingdoms are not going to be relevant most of the time. I had a thought on a way to make them useful during campaigns that has some upsides and downsides. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before.

Essentially, I'd like to see EKs be able to be used as marketplaces for campaigns. So you can take your stuff back to your EK from a campaign any time... but it is tied to that campaign. You can't use it for anything but that campaign (and maybe your EK). Any items crafted with it or related to it in any way would also be tied to that campaign. You can freely take those items back into that campaign any time.

Example: I gather resources in Campaign A. I bring them to my EK, craft a weapon. I place the weapon on a vendor in my EK. Player X comes to my EK and purchases the weapon from my vendor. That weapon can be taken into Campaign A, but no other Campaigns. It could be set up so that when viewing vendors it only shows you items that are not tied to a campaign or are tied to campaigns you are currently participating in (or maybe a toggle for that).

This way EKs are still relevant during campaigns but campaign economies are not affect in any way. Since the items are tied specifically to a campaign nothing is leaving or entering the campaign/economy.

Things to consider with this:

EKs become safe spaces. Crafters can avoid PvP entirely by doing all crafting in EKs. I see both positive and negative aspects to this. PvE crafters are able to play without feeling threatened which might attract more players. On the other hand, how do you disrupt your opponent's production if they can be done in safe spaces? Perhaps some restrictions on how much can be taken to EKs at a time could work to less the impact. Or maybe you can't craft with the items outside of the campaign, but you could buy/sell/trade them there.

EKs could be used as safe storage? I'm not sure how relevant this is. Do we know how banks/guild storage works? Will there even be a way to pillage stuff players have stashed away in their banks? If not, it's really no different. Of course, there are ways around it even if they are... put it on another account/character that stays logged out keeping items safe anyway.

Thoughts?

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I don't like safe spaces in my pvp sandbox. If someone wants to feel safe while they craft they should hide themselves really well, or have friends guard them. Switching to the EK to craft breaks immersion and takes away some of the point of building fortifications in the campaigns.

Hiding in an EK should never be an effective tactic to get ahead in a campaign.

I like to see the campaigns as full fledged MMORPGs. I am hoping there will be marketplaces in the campaigns, not outside them.

Edited by Jah

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The high competitiveness of the shadows and dregs campaigns and the higher standard for winning resources from them will push the more casual guilds toward the outer rings where import will be a thing.  These faction rings will certainly develop open markets within the faction CW and will also be able to import from the EK markets. Players used to these campaigns will get better and better at setting up shop quickly and the faction nature insures there will be a customer base.  The dregs is gonna be tough and there likely will be no trade per se.  I expect after getting nothing from the dregs a majority of players will head to outer ring CWs.   This is how things are outlined to work and we are getting ourselves prepared for it.   The EK markets will be a hub of trading after a number of CWs have completed but likely pretty slow before that point.  There will also be a market for expensive twink gear...   winners from the dregs probably will opt back into the dregs and likely just show profit from selling epic gear to build guild coffers.  The other option for a dregs top guild is slip into a 12 faction CW under a certain god and wreck face with dregs exported twinked out gear:  Making salt the old fashioned way, earning it.

Edited by Frykka

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

I don't like safe spaces in my pvp sandbox. If someone wants to feel safe while they craft they should hide themselves really well, or have friends guard them. Switching to the EK to craft breaks immersion and takes away some of the point of building fortifications in the campaigns.

Hiding in an EK should never be an effective tactic to get ahead in a campaign.

I like to see the campaigns as full fledged MMORPGs. I am hoping there will be marketplaces in the campaigns, not outside them.

All fair points. I touched on this briefly. What about the idea of just being able to set up vendors in the EK but all crafting has to be done in the campaign itself?

I love the idea of EKs but right now they seem rather pointless most of the time, which is why I was looking for a way to make them more useful. I'm not a big fan of safe spaces either, generally, but I'm not sure how much of a difference just using EKs for buying/selling items would make a difference. The more I think about it the more I think crafting for a campaign should happen in the campaign, but the shopping part I think is fine outside of the campaign.

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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

I don't like safe spaces in my pvp sandbox. If someone wants to feel safe while they craft they should hide themselves really well, or have friends guard them. Switching to the EK to craft breaks immersion and takes away some of the point of building fortifications in the campaigns.

Hiding in an EK should never be an effective tactic to get ahead in a campaign.

I like to see the campaigns as full fledged MMORPGs. I am hoping there will be marketplaces in the campaigns, not outside them.

I agree 100%. For armor to be used in a Campaign World, it should be crafted in that Campaign World. For Vessels to be used in a CW, they should be crafted in that CW. For keeps to be used in a CW, they should be crafted in that CW.

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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

The high competitiveness of the shadows and dregs campaigns and the higher standard for winning resources from them will push the more casual guilds toward the outer rings where import will be a thing.  These faction rings will certainly develop open markets within the faction CW.  Player used to these campaigns will get better and better at setting up shop quickly and the faction nature insures there will be a customer base.  The dregs is gonna be tough and there likely will be no trade per se.   This is how things are outlined to work and we are getting ourselves prepared for it.   The EK markets will be a hub of trading after a number of CWs have completed but likely pretty slow before that point.  There will also be a market for expensive twink gear...   winners from the dregs probably will opt back into the dregs and likely just show profit from selling epic gear to build guild coffers.  The other option for a dregs top guild is slip into a 12 faction CW under a certain god and wreck face with dregs exported twinked out gear.

My main concern is that you'll spend a few minutes in EKs once every couple months. There's no reason to ever go to an EK during a campaign. Once one ends you go to your EK, organize your stuff, grab your imports, and head into the next campaign.

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2 minutes ago, Gradishar said:

I agree 100%. For armor to be used in a Campaign World, it should be crafted in that Campaign World. For Vessels to be used in a CW, they should be crafted in that CW. For keeps to be used in a CW, they should be crafted in that CW.

I pose the same question to you then. What if you had to do all crafting in the Campaign world, but you could just use EKs as a marketplace for buying/selling campaign items? You can export, toss on a vendor, someone else buys it, takes it back into the same campaign. That's it. They can't be used for crafting or anything while in an EK.

It turns the EKs just into marketplaces/shopping hubs.

Edited by Svenn

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This is the entire dilemma to me, regarding EKs and campaigns. How, in the harshest environments, does one create a dynamic economy in a world where worlds end and outside influence is supposed to be mitigated (import/export rules). 

It seems to me that, and I could be missing something here, that crafting and building (at least for those that want to compete) will almost be required to stay within the guild. Materials, gear, food, resources will have to be produced and hoarded against both the enemy and the encroaching Hunger in order to survive and hopefully prevail. This concept, in and of itself, does not seem to lend itself to a "Dynamic player driven economy" simply because of the ticking clock.

The "artificial clock" is the big issue here. It really gives no time for a real economy to become established. In SB, servers went on, some time for years (Mourning was launch to close). You would see open trade cities or open trainer cities. Do you think you would have seen that if every SB server lasted 90 days? Of course not. I won't mention my concerns over a three month window, that's for another topic.

I could be wrong, But I have a hard time believing crafters (or crafting guilds) are going to log in to the Dregs/Shadow rule sets to craft for 3-6 months in order to supply the "Winners" and bring jack poorly made socks back to their EK via embargo at campaigns end. 

So given all that, if I choose to play Dregs... Why would I want to build up a Crafting Hub/Eternal Kingdom that I cannot use?

Now.... if they allow import/Export during any Campaign throughout the entirety of the campaign? Well, that would be a significant game changer (Bad idea IMHO). It would "cheapen" the campaign world. We'll see where it goes I guess.

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13 minutes ago, Svenn said:

My main concern is that you'll spend a few minutes in EKs once every couple months. There's no reason to ever go to an EK during a campaign. Once one ends you go to your EK, organize your stuff, grab your imports, and head into the next campaign.

Your crow (I think) CAN have a vessel in your EK so logging in to check on things or while things are slow in the CW is always possible, probable in the first few CWs, nope.   More casual players will hang out there more, particularly if their main vessel is in a faction ring CW.

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Just now, Frykka said:

Your crow (I think) CAN have a vessel in your EK so logging in to check on things or while things are slow in the CW is always possible, probable in the first few CWs, nope.   More casual players will hang out there more, particularly if their main vessel is in a faction ring CW.

Sure, but what are you checking on? You CAN be there, but why would you be? It's the middle of a campaign. There's nothing for you to do there. You could craft or something... but to what end? There's nothing to do with the stuff you craft, at least not until next campaign.

There's just no incentive to do anything in EKs other than the brief period between campaigns. That's my concern. If EKs are irrelevant 99% of the time, that's a pretty big feature that's going unused.

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13 minutes ago, armegeddon said:

So given all that, if I choose to play Dregs... Why would I want to build up a Crafting Hub/Eternal Kingdom that I cannot use?

Because nothing you "win" from the dregs can go back into the dregs.  Epic materials and gear stuck on the outside.  Sell it or twink out a kit for import to an outer ring CW ftw.

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54 minutes ago, Svenn said:

I pose the same question to you then. What if you had to do all crafting in the Campaign world, but you could just use EKs as a marketplace for buying/selling campaign items? You can export, toss on a vendor, someone else buys it, takes it back into the same campaign. That's it. They can't be used for crafting or anything while in an EK.

It turns the EKs just into marketplaces/shopping hubs.

Why would we want to remove marketplaces from the campaign world? Why would we want to allow the gathers/crafters on the CW to remove their resources/products from the risk of destruction/capture in the CW? I see nothing gained...and a lot lost.

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1 hour ago, Svenn said:

My main concern is that you'll spend a few minutes in EKs once every couple months. There's no reason to ever go to an EK during a campaign. Once one ends you go to your EK, organize your stuff, grab your imports, and head into the next campaign.

Yeah... thats by design.

Some will make use of their EKs some won't. Thats not a problem that needs a solution, thats sound design that gives players options and doesn't arbitrarily force players into using them because they are there.

Edited by pang

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2 hours ago, pang said:

Yeah... thats by design.

Some will make use of their EKs some won't. Thats not a problem that needs a solution, thats sound design that gives players options and doesn't arbitrarily force players into using them because they are there.

Is it? Where do they say that EKs are just going be something that many players will visit once a campaign is over, and then ignored the rest of the time? Pretty sure they have said over and over again the EKs will be central marketplaces, which means frequent visits.

4 hours ago, Jah said:

I don't like safe spaces in my pvp sandbox. If someone wants to feel safe while they craft they should hide themselves really well, or have friends guard them. Switching to the EK to craft breaks immersion and takes away some of the point of building fortifications in the campaigns.

Hiding in an EK should never be an effective tactic to get ahead in a campaign.

I like to see the campaigns as full fledged MMORPGs. I am hoping there will be marketplaces in the campaigns, not outside them.

Having safe spaces doesn't mean crafters are safe. You could say the same about embargo - it takes resources out of the campaign economy, giving crafters a safe place to put materials; even if they can't get them out, they won't get them if they die. Obviously, embargo does not work this way as currently designed: the areas you go to place things in embargo are not safe. You have to basically run supply caravans through disputed lands with a lot of traffic. So what if temporarily visiting outside EKs went the same way? Besides, to some extent, a lot of towns will be safe spaces already. I mean, they've mentioned that they'll have times where towns can't be attack, and if they can't be attacked, it'd kind of ruin the design if the enemy guild can run in and slaughter everyone 5 minutes before the siege window starts, yeah?

3 hours ago, Frykka said:

Because nothing you "win" from the dregs can go back into the dregs.  Epic materials and gear stuck on the outside.  Sell it or twink out a kit for import to an outer ring CW ftw.

So the only purpose of good equipment in EKs is to import into places where new players are going to be naturally attracted to, and stomp them? That sounds awful. Hell, why would I even do this? If I can get a decent amount of goods from the dregs, whats the point in going back to 3 faction mode? I guess if my guild held some sort of event, but I don't see a lot of top tier guilds going to 3 or 12 faction campaigns.

I think Svenn's idea is better than what we have been told so far. EKs won't be central marketplace as currently designed. If they have one account, the best players playing the most rewarding content won't have any reason to buy or sell anything in EKs. That makes absolutely no sense. If they buy something, they'll never be able to take it into a campaign. If they sell something, what do they get? I guess they could buy more materials so their pointless guild hall that they can visit four times a year looks bigger. Wow. Very rewarding. Hell, mostly people won't have reasons to buy things in EWs. I mean, it's not like other import rules are going to let you take in too much stuff. No one knows for sure, but mock-ups show being able to only take equipped gear, even in the highest tiers. At the same time, I don't think FFAs are going to be lively marketplaces. Why should I trade with someone who's my enemy? Trading in pvp heavy mmos works well because the guy your trading your goods too will probably never see you again with those goods, much less in a competitive sense. In a Crowfall FFA campaign, giving someone an advantage actively harms you - your competitors are now stronger. Chances are pretty good that that sword you traded away might be later used to kill you. Hell, if you're trading in person, that sword might be used to kill you the instance you exit out of the trade window. And why wouldn't they? If they're combat speced, and you aren't, they should be able to wipe the floor with you, and take all of your equipment, including the stuff they just gave you.

 

Edited by ringhloth

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12 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

So the only purpose of good equipment in EKs is to import into places where new players are going to be naturally attracted to, and stomp them? That sounds awful. Hell, why would I even do this? If I can get a decent amount of goods from the dregs, whats the point in going back to 3 faction mode? I guess if my guild held some sort of event, but I don't see a lot of top tier guilds going to 3 or 12 faction campaigns.

To win the throne...   I don't know the values of a win and if the win values as far as the overall throne war will vary by value of the CW ring...   but certainly going into faction play after a dregs campaign could be a fairly easy mop job if your top PvPers are decked out in epic gear going in.   Would it be fair?  No...   would it be a potential good strategy to take another win even for a guild that got second in the last dregs campaign.   I think you are starting to see the war part and the ruthless side of how this "could" play out.  Many of us are here to "play to crush" and will take every advantage given within the rules.

Edited by Frykka

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4 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

they've mentioned that they'll have times where towns can't be attack, and if they can't be attacked, it'd kind of ruin the design if the enemy guild can run in and slaughter everyone 5 minutes before the siege window starts, yeah?

Don't let your enemy slaughter you 5 minutes before the siege window starts.

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4 hours ago, armegeddon said:

This is the entire dilemma to me, regarding EKs and campaigns. How, in the harshest environments, does one create a dynamic economy in a world where worlds end and outside influence is supposed to be mitigated (import/export rules). 

 

 

You pretty much nailed it. Economic activity in a 100% PvP world (such as The CW's) will never have an economy, nothing will be traded at large at all except between those of the highest trust (and even then - not much). So what you see is not a dilemma, but the reality. EK will be the only area with economic activity because of law and order. 

The item broken at the moment is the very thin import pipe from EK to the CW.'s The best resources come into the EK in a big fat export pipe, but only a trickle can be imported, if at all. If their model does not change, EK will become the dumping ground of worthless resources from the CW's. Yes, even the "rare" stuff from dregs becomes worthless, as a 1% drop rate times 100,000 is still 1000, and if the demand is only 100 in the EK, and one cannot import it to the CW's, one ends up with 900 extra in the EK. 

Another way to put it, would be like going to Wal-Mart, only anything you bought can only be consumed, used, or worn in Wal-mart, They also provide lockers for a fee. If you go to the parking lot door, you can wear clothes or take some camping equipment and guns. If you take the door to the street, however, you cannot take out anything you bought or own and go naked. You can bring in a gun or money from the street though. 

 

Edited by Ironmike

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59 minutes ago, Jah said:

Don't let your enemy slaughter you 5 minutes before the siege window starts.

Then what's the point of the siege window? This doesn't make any sense.

 

1 hour ago, Frykka said:

To win the throne...   I don't know the values of a win and if the win values as far as the overall throne war will vary by value of the CW ring...   but certainly going into faction play after a dregs campaign could be a fairly easy mop job if your top PvPers are decked out in epic gear going in.   Would it be fair?  No...   would it be a potential good strategy to take another win even for a guild that got second in the last dregs campaign.   I think you are starting to see the war part and the ruthless side of how this "could" play out.  Many of us are here to "play to crush" and will take every advantage given within the rules.

Yeah, if the point of high end equipment in EKs is to just stomp people trying to learn the game, that's pretty bad design.

Edited by ringhloth

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