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Svenn

Eternal Kingdoms as Campaign Marketplaces

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20 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

Why do we have to trade? The systems of Crowfall don't seem to encourage it, at least not what we've heard. There's no currency, so we'll have to work out exhaustive barter deals for large scale transactions. There's no higher power to ensure that one side doesn't turn on the other and just slaughter them and take the goods. It can be very dangerous to move around large amounts of goods, with people constantly preying on each other. There's a lot of risk and no reward, if my guild can get all the resources we need ourselves. Why risk trading away our excess for goods we already have? A lot of the time game designers assume that if they put players in a sandbox, they'll trade and ally with each other. That's just not true. Alliances can occasionally happen, but that's really quite rare, especially in an adversarial game like Crowfall. There's nothing gained by working with my enemy, if he's ahead of me, if it's an equitable deal, since I'm just pushing him closer to victory. When you look at board games, the best alliance and trade mechanics come from rules that are specifically designed to encourage alliances and trading between players. You cannot just expect multiple groups of people to work together, when one of them is a winner, and the rest are losers.

This is literally why currency (and credit/debt) exist. There are decades of research on the limits of barter systems and the long history of monetary systems that have risen to combat that deficiency. On the one hand, it's kind of ACE to allow us the freedom to develop those systems ourselves. On the other hand, it's monumentally foolhardy and shortsighted.

As for the common refrain (not mentioned in the above quote) that bad reputations discourage overwhelming disparities in success and wealth, what possible reason could a human being living in the modern age - or really any time in the past several thousand years - have for believing this? Are they all die-hard Calvinists? I just can't wrap my head around it.

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I'm fairly certain EKs will become marketplaces just for the fact that traders want to trade in safe places, and what place is safer than an EK?

 

I doubt that there'll be a group/guild charitable enough to create safe trade havens in CWs, and if there are, I doubt they'll be overly successful, due to the destructive desire of most griefers.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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9 minutes ago, pang said:

In that scenario think he means that the zerg guilds isn't really "winning". Because the time was short they get less rewards and later because of bad rep they won't get any likely due to no one wanting to play with them. Its a self correcting mechanism.

Yup.

 

Quote

19. WHY WOULD I PARTICIPATE IN A LONG CAMPAIGN? IT SEEMS LIKE I WOULD GET MORE REWARDS FROM DOING A BUNCH OF SHORTER ONES?

Rewards scale up based on the difficulty of the Campaign and the duration. In effect, you can earn more rewards by making the longer-term commitment – and, of course, by winning.

Again, it’s all about risk and reward.

Join a guild that steamrollers a world quickly, (low risk) you get less out of each world. 

If they limit a couple of things with a few rules, they could really turn down the fun factor for this sort of behavior.

E.G.

  1. Players are limited to the number of campaigns they can join at a time. (No VIP, 1, VIP More)
  2. You must still be registered in a campaign to get anything from embargo.
  3. Campaigns close at 4X the predefined ending speed. So if you had 4 weeks left and it was won, the victors have to wait 1 week before winning embargo clears.

So worlds that go to the bitter end, and last longer, will have the most opportunity for retrieving resources.  Zerg's that steam roller a world quick through a flood of alt accounts will have to wait in an empty dead world for weeks to pull anything out of it, and pull less out of it when they do.

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It would be smart for any guild that plans to participate in other campaigns outside of zero import rulesets to invest in an EK whether it be their own or as a smaller part of another one. 

I think a lot of people have yet to see the way items will flow in and out of campaigns, into EKs and back into other campaigns.  There will be a significant advantage to having a popular EK where people can find middle to high end goods.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I'm fairly certain EKs will become marketplaces just for the fact that traders want to trade in safe places, and what place is safer than an EK?

 

I doubt that there'll be a group/guild charitable enough to create safe trade havens in CWs, and if there are, I doubt they'll be overly successful, due to the destructive desire of most griefers.

And what sort of trading are you imagining happening here. Why would anyone spend time here outside of a few minutes between campaigns prepping for the next campaign? What are they going to trade? What are they going to do when everyone is in a campaign?

2 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It would be smart for any guild that plans to participate in other campaigns outside of zero import rulesets to invest in an EK whether it be their own or as a smaller part of another one. 

I think a lot of people have yet to see the way items will flow in and out of campaigns, into EKs and back into other campaigns.  There will be a significant advantage to having a popular EK where people can find middle to high end goods.

Again, this all depends on how much can be imported. If there is too much from imports then those campaigns are going to be only for the rich players as anyone else can't compete. The "right" amount seems to be just enough to give a start, which means in the long run they aren't a big deal. Not enough for people to spend tons of time in EKs.

Here's the problem, EKs are worthless while you are in a campaign. They have no use whatsoever. Campaigns are where all the gameplay is, so where you will spend all your time.

People keep talking about all the stuff you'll need to be trading in your EKs... but what is this stuff? Campaign ends, a group of resources/items come out. Players go to their EK, MAYBE trade a few resources (but who are you trading to? and what are you trading?), craft some gear for the next campaign. New Campaign starts, you import that new gear and start the campaign, never looking back at your EK. Short version: Campaign ends->Resources come out->Resources crafted into gear (or not)->Resources go back in to next campaign->wait x months for campaign to end->repeat.

So, what are all these things being traded in the EK? What incentive does anyone have to spend more than a few minutes there? Who is actually going to be going around trading things in the EK and what are they going to trade? And to who?


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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It's been said already,

Never underestimate how many people just want to build and socialize. This may not be Minecraft but it is certainly a good example how just how many people are out there that do enjoy Building and Socializing.

Aside from that, we really don't know enough about import/export to determine just how significant or insignificant EK's will be to CW's.

Also I just want to say, I doubt there will be a CW where you will see one zerg having their way with everyone, where there's one you can be sure there is more. There are plenty of Zerg guilds waiting to see how CF pans out. Who's to say one of those Hardcore Dregs guilds doesn't decide to vacation in a different CW with all their new shinies and wipe the floor with said Zerg guilds.

It's a good topic but a pretty tough debate considering the lack of knowledge, it seems everyone is just guessing at what will or won't be.

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6 minutes ago, Apok said:

It's been said already,

Never underestimate how many people just want to build and socialize. This may not be Minecraft but it is certainly a good example how just how many people are out there that do enjoy Building and Socializing.

Aside from that, we really don't know enough about import/export to determine just how significant or insignificant EK's will be to CW's.

My question then is what makes you think those people will be interested in Crowfall? There are much more robust games out there for building and socializing that are cheaper and offer a lot more player control. What are they going to do sitting around in an EK all day? Hell, EKs shouldn't even have enough resources for them to just be building (only the low level stuff available, not sure what will be needed for buildings yet)... they'd have to be getting resources from campaigns.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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20 minutes ago, Svenn said:

 

Again, this all depends on how much can be imported. If there is too much from imports then those campaigns are going to be only for the rich players as anyone else can't compete. The "right" amount seems to be just enough to give a start, which means in the long run they aren't a big deal. Not enough for people to spend tons of time in EKs.

Here's the problem, EKs are worthless while you are in a campaign. They have no use whatsoever. Campaigns are where all the gameplay is, so where you will spend all your time.

People keep talking about all the stuff you'll need to be trading in your EKs... but what is this stuff? Campaign ends, a group of resources/items come out. Players go to their EK, MAYBE trade a few resources (but who are you trading to? and what are you trading?), craft some gear for the next campaign. New Campaign starts, you import that new gear and start the campaign, never looking back at your EK. Short version: Campaign ends->Resources come out->Resources crafted into gear (or not)->Resources go back in to next campaign->wait x months for campaign to end->repeat.

So, what are all these things being traded in the EK? What incentive does anyone have to spend more than a few minutes there? Who is actually going to be going around trading things in the EK and what are they going to trade? And to who?

Yes but that is the very nature of design, they will allow big mega guilds to try to out uncle-bob each other in outer ring high import campaigns.  They will allow more hardcore types that want an even playing field to enjoy zero to low import campaigns. 

The majority of the players will gravitate to whatever the most convenient rulesets are, and at times some of those will trickle back into harder campaigns due to the need for certain high grade resources. 

EKs may end up being useful in some campaigns that might have seasonal imports, the idea was floated around by ACE, no commitment either way. 

You also have to keep in mind that EKs are staging grounds, and campaigns will ideally be ending and starting quite frequently if the game is popular enough.  So the good guilds will be pre-planning and pre-gathering resources for the next campaign they play if they play import campaigns.  On top of trading for import stuff, players/guilds will be trying to grow EKs because it's human nature to chase after bigger and better.

3 minutes ago, Apok said:

It's been said already,

Never underestimate how many people just want to build and socialize. This may not be Minecraft but it is certainly a good example how just how many people are out there that do enjoy Building and Socializing.

Aside from that, we really don't know enough about import/export to determine just how significant or insignificant EK's will be to CW's.

Also I just want to say, I doubt there will be a CW where you will see one zerg having their way with everyone, where there's one you can be sure there is more. There are plenty of Zerg guilds waiting to see how CF pans out. Who's to say one of those Hardcore Dregs guilds doesn't decide to vacation in a different CW with all their new shinies and wipe the floor with said Zerg guilds.

It's a good topic but a pretty tough debate considering the lack of knowledge, it seems everyone is just guessing at what will or won't be.

On top of the group that just wants to build and socialize, you will also have the ability to pvp in EKs, which could also end up spawning a whole competitive community with players making maps in EKs that they think would serve as the most fun scenarios for top pvpers to practice and master.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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6 minutes ago, Svenn said:

My question then is what makes you think those people will be interested in Crowfall? There are much more robust games out there for building and socializing that are cheaper and offer a lot more player control. What are they going to do sitting around in an EK all day? Hell, EKs shouldn't even have enough resources for them to just be building (only the low level stuff available, not sure what will be needed for buildings yet)... they'd have to be getting resources from campaigns.

Maybe they are part of a guild with different playstyle members. Don't think I've ever been in or even heard of a guild with just a single type of player in it. They wouldn't just sit in the EK, they could be in the CWs applying their trade as well providing services to the guild, faction allies etc. Crafting, gathering, social engineering etc. PvPers go out kill stuff bring back resources and materials and the builders build the castles keeps and cities.

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Just now, Svenn said:

My question then is what makes you think those people will be interested in Crowfall? There are much more robust games out there for building and socializing that are cheaper and offer a lot more player control. What are they going to do sitting around in an EK all day? Hell, EKs shouldn't even have enough resources for them to just be building (only the low level stuff available, not sure what will be needed for buildings yet)... they'd have to be getting resources from campaigns.

I honestly don't know why they would be interested in CF but I quit questioning why some gamers play certain games long ago, there is no rhyme or reason and yet, they will come to play. Not only will they come to play, they will start requesting things like questing, raids, dragons to slay, a shift in focus from CW's to EK's because the game should be mostly about EK's. Ok so maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but you can almost always garuntee there will be that niche of players who enjoy doing the one thing the rest of us just can't wrap our heads around.

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15 minutes ago, Apok said:

I honestly don't know why they would be interested in CF but I quit questioning why some gamers play certain games long ago, there is no rhyme or reason and yet, they will come to play. Not only will they come to play, they will start requesting things like questing, raids, dragons to slay, a shift in focus from CW's to EK's because the game should be mostly about EK's. Ok so maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but you can almost always garuntee there will be that niche of players who enjoy doing the one thing the rest of us just can't wrap our heads around.

Candy Crush anyone?

That game built a 7 BILLION IPO company.  Do not, under any circumstances, underestimate the value or spending power of the "causal" gamer.  

If ACE can figure out an APP that lets people participate in a casual EK focused building and economy game that doesn't grossly interfere with the core vision of the game, there is a huge potential to get casual gamers to pay for years for the kind of development a game like this needs.

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I am that player. I am loving crowfall for the crafting specialization and the idea (Fingers crossed of managing an EK with a healthy economy) If the option to be a neutral trader on a massive scale comes to light i will gladly spend my days in a EK building, expanding, and providing items for everyone. I have hundreds of hours in games that are pvp based just playing markets and crafting. The only pvp i do is slapping down those who want to take my nodes or goods. I make friends with like minded players and can confirm I am not a special butterfly there are thousands of players thinking like me. :) I don't want dungeons and raids to address that comment although sure there are those who do but this is not the game for that. I look forward to seeing how ACE address this to make EKs viable and will give all the feedback i can to help make this game great for all the different kinds of players we have. Keep the good discussions going.

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I think for those having trouble visualizing what an EK will be like, picture Lion's Arch from GW2, but add personal housing and layout customization. Spaces for people to congregate will always be popular and useful if well-designed. That will be the challenge for EK-builders...especially if you are selling goods or services. Just like any storefront in the real world.

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20 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I think for those having trouble visualizing what an EK will be like, picture Lion's Arch from GW2, but add personal housing and layout customization. Spaces for people to congregate will always be popular and useful if well-designed. That will be the challenge for EK-builders...especially if you are selling goods or services. Just like any storefront in the real world.

My EK's Theme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOryJvTAGs&list=RD9SOryJvTAGs

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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On 4/9/2017 at 1:45 AM, Anthrage said:

I think for those having trouble visualizing what an EK will be like, picture Lion's Arch from GW2, but add personal housing and layout customization. Spaces for people to congregate will always be popular and useful if well-designed. That will be the challenge for EK-builders...especially if you are selling goods or services. Just like any storefront in the real world.

Lion's Arch was popular because you could do things there. There was a bank. You could craft, buy/sell, etc. The dungeon armor vendors were there. There were quests there. It had the fractals portal.

If EKs don't let you do any of that then it won't be a popular spot for anyone. Why hang out in an EK when you can't do anything relating to your campaign?


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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This whole topic is something I've been watching keenly. I'm on the fence now about whether I'm going to end up playing this game. I like the concepts, but I really want to feel like I'm establishing something permanent with my activity, and something that is actually useful in a substantial part of my gameplay. I love the idea of going into campaigns to build up my EK, but only if my EK actually matters. If you can't bring anything into the inner rings, that means that trade, crafting, or anything else you do doesn't matter. I see only two solutions to this: either relax the import rules so what you do outside of the inner rings matters, or design the game in such a way that only some portion of a player's time is in the inner rings, but there is great motivation to play in the outer rings as well, where EK, crafting, and trade actually matter.

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On 4/18/2017 at 10:55 AM, slyjeff said:

This whole topic is something I've been watching keenly. I'm on the fence now about whether I'm going to end up playing this game. I like the concepts, but I really want to feel like I'm establishing something permanent with my activity, and something that is actually useful in a substantial part of my gameplay. I love the idea of going into campaigns to build up my EK, but only if my EK actually matters. If you can't bring anything into the inner rings, that means that trade, crafting, or anything else you do doesn't matter. I see only two solutions to this: either relax the import rules so what you do outside of the inner rings matters, or design the game in such a way that only some portion of a player's time is in the inner rings, but there is great motivation to play in the outer rings as well, where EK, crafting, and trade actually matter.

I keep saying just borrow the same idea that EvE uses.  EKs are like hi-sec and then the campaigns are like null sec.  The way to view campaigns, is they can be wormhole worlds that come and go, so while the inner/outer bands are always in flux, the EKs are permanent and a thriving place in and of themselves.  I would be all for relaxing the import/export rules to allow both in every campaign.


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2 hours ago, Teufel said:

I keep saying just borrow the same idea that EvE uses.  EKs are like hi-sec and then the campaigns are like null sec.  The way to view campaigns, is they can be wormhole worlds that come and go, so while the inner/outer bands are always in flux, the EKs are permanent and a thriving place in and of themselves.  I would be all for relaxing the import/export rules to allow both in every campaign.

With the basic design of different campaign rules, there is no reason to have a single set of rules. Some worlds can have extremely lenient imports/export rules, and others to let nothing go in either direction. The "everyone gets the same number of tanks" question ends at the EK level.  It's irrelevant how much gets back to the EK from worlds that allow basically free passage, as each CW will have import restrictions in place to prevent unwanted power from migrating from lenient worlds into restrictive.

It will be up to us, the players, what flavor of campaign worlds are the most popular.  It will be emergent behavior, guided by us, and not dictated by ACE. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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@KrakkenSmacken We need goods to flow both ways for all bands of campaigns.  The question is how and when do we allow that to used in the dregs.  EvE's model is a good one to look at; they produce high end moon goo, mine minerals, produce PI goods.  Then those goods are sent back to "safe" space for assembly, shipping out larger parts back to null sec.  Excess goods are traded in hubs like Jita, where players what to make a little extra Isk.

I don't think we should make EKs be the only place that has markets, but they are a natural place for all players to trade.  Without relaxing all import/export rules though, you can never get goods back to the null sec type campaigns.  I love the idea of campaigns that reset, but I believe they need to be allowed to have goods that come in say 1 time every 2 weeks, or every month.  I don't think that "victory" prizes in a campaign should be tied to resources.  The skeleton is there for a dynamic world, if ACE would shift their thinking just slightly and notice that a great economy can be had by opening up resources between all bands of campaigns and all EKs.


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