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Anhrez

RuneTool Optional Stats ... concerns

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Gradishar

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Gradishar

HARVESTING: Boy is this a chore. I cannot imagine how difficult this will be without harvesting potions. The initial difficulty curve is really starting to concern me and I don't have any good suggestions on how to mitigate it.

Presently, the best picks/axes/shovels are all created by using gold/silver to increase critical chance. There should be more options available to (1) increase critical amount, (2) increase chance of gem/mineral drops, (3) amount of gem/mineral drops, etc.

This is another example of a player being able to articulate a nagging concern i had that I could not find a way to form into a post.  Thanks Gradishar

Ore A Ore B Stat outcome
Gold Gold nothing
Gold Silver Critical Chance ore
Gold Iron nothing
Gold Copper nothing
Gold Tin nothing
Silver Silver nothing
Silver Iron nothing
Silver Copper gem harvest Chance
Silver Tin nothing
Tin Tin nothing
Tin Iron Plethroa Dust
Tin Copper Beneficial Harvest Chance
Copper Copper nothing
Copper Iron nothing
Iron Iron nothing

In its current iteration Gold/Silver is just the best option for almost all players. Unless you are a RuneCrafter and hunting for Soulgems (as the Gem harvest chance seemed to help for all gems not just gems in MotherLodes) there is not comparison to Beneficial harvest and Critical Chance right now with dust a nebulous unknown ...

So do the devs improve the other options or give us more routes to Critical Chance? because as of now our use of materials for Tools seem limited to a 'best' format and I am pretty sure this is against the long term strategy of the Crowfall team 

 

 

 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Dust may become more valuable than we know now once it powers the factories and becomes the trade medium.  If the numbers are tweeked so that beneficial harvest speeds up the nodes going down it could be better than critical chance or critical amount, Gem/mineral harvest chance could also be the best given scarcity of those materials.  The only thing I think could be added would be + motherlode quarry% or + quarry%, what else do tools do?


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I would think that the mining is an offensive type operation. I would hope it would kinda mirror the offensive bar type modifiers. At least to a point. 

Stuff like

Iron Iron.            Cold Iron Pick. + to raw mining damage.
Iron Carbon       Steel Pick + to durability or major negative to damage to durability of the pick.
Copper Tin         Bronze Pick + to Crit and Armor debuff of node  (halfsies of the pures)
Iron Gold            + to Damage and + to Stamina regen per swing (Halfsies of the pures.)
Gold Gold           + to Stamina Per Swing
Tin TIn                Debuff to Armor value of the node.

That sort of idea. 

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When the harvesting potions go away I suppose players will rely on dedicated Harvesting armor and weapons to give an extra little boost to those harvesting stats.

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I was also thinking of replying to this in the feedback thread but glad you made it's own thread for this discussion.  

One thing all harvesters gain is +Motherload Damage and +Node Damage.  I think these stats needs to be built into a craftable bonus to allow non-trained harvesters to get them while sacrificing the bonuses for additional dust or node crit chance.  The motherload bonuses would help more groups to be able to farm Motherloads which are almost an impossible task for Rank 5 in the current Big World build.

Edited by Weebles

   Official Moderator of the Unofficial Crowfall Discord!  Come join the discussion @ https://discord.me/crowfall

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I am torn between adding more stats for the combinations or adding more breadth to the existing ones. With the shifting dependence on food I could see some Woodcutters who have not trained Survival in the Exploration Basic tree using a mix of Silver/Copper and Silver/Gold combinations just like some of the Grave Diggers might use Silver/Copper mixed with Silver/Gold until they have the Grave Goods Harvest technique trained. 

Just wondering if more depth or more breadth is the answer to avoid the community starting with a 'best' runetool combo even before beta? 

 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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The way I see it is that the breadth of the crafting adds much to the depth. Much like a question Kendogg had in another post about the "best".

Which best do you want. Right now it is crit, because that is the only thing we really get, but I tended to make apple axes, why cause I needed more apples. (and because tools are destroyed way way too fast)

I would love to see a "best" question answered with an "it depends", and I think my above post kinda would answer that. 

One dude with a Tin Hammer to debuff the motherload, another wants to knock big chunks off with the cold iron hammer but will not get the last hit, a third with the mineral hammer to get what he needs and a crit hammer dude with the last hit crit hammer to hopefully get the massive crit moneyshot.  

Of course the fact that all of them need to have trained the same thing in the horrible skill system means that interdependence like what they want is a pipe dream. Sure it might be possible a year from release, but how many non alts will be playing a year from release that work only to be gatherers. 

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28 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

I am torn between adding more stats for the combinations or adding more breadth to the existing ones. With the shifting dependence on food I could see some Woodcutters who have not trained Survival in the Exploration Basic tree using a mix of Silver/Copper and Silver/Gold combinations just like some of the Grave Diggers might use Silver/Copper mixed with Silver/Gold until they have the Grave Goods Harvest technique trained. 

Just wondering if more depth or more breadth is the answer to avoid the community starting with a 'best' runetool combo even before beta? 

 

What do you mean by "best", and why would it be a problem anyway? 

With just the 4 that are in your table, the "Best" depends on what you are after. You stated as much with "unless you are X".

Rune tools are not really a place I am too worried about having a mystery about what is the best under what circumstances.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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What do you mean by "best", and why would it be a problem anyway? 

Its just my baggage I guess ... but the crafter is supposed to be a real class one with the complexity of a fighter, so why should we already be able to determin the 'best' combination of anything when we are in Alpha? 

Best is subjective but from the hundreds of hours of shared testing the input i have heard is Beneficial harvest is at too low of an input to make much impact, dust is undefined and has nothing to do with the act of getting more resources, the gems/minerals/etc have training limiters on them so unless specialty trained its worthless to players.

Is the Dirge better than the Slayer? Is Arch Druid better than the EarthKeeper?  we can't tell yet.

if the lack of depth has allowed the limited testing we have done to already state X is the best path forward in parts of Crafting/gathering then I think its too shallow and I feel like more work is needed.  I was told Gathering/Crafting would be a deep enough option to 'play' as my choice just like a PvPer can focus on combat right now (and I realize its my opinion) there are aspects that feel way too shallow for that to be a sustainable promise.

 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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1 hour ago, anhrezcf said:

Its just my baggage I guess ... but the crafter is supposed to be a real class one with the complexity of a fighter, so why should we already be able to determin the 'best' combination of anything when we are in Alpha? 

Best is subjective but from the hundreds of hours of shared testing the input i have heard is Beneficial harvest is at too low of an input to make much impact, dust is undefined and has nothing to do with the act of getting more resources, the gems/minerals/etc have training limiters on them so unless specialty trained its worthless to players.

Is the Dirge better than the Slayer? Is Arch Druid better than the EarthKeeper?  we can't tell yet.

if the lack of depth has allowed the limited testing we have done to already state X is the best path forward in parts of Crafting/gathering then I think its too shallow and I feel like more work is needed.  I was told Gathering/Crafting would be a deep enough option to 'play' as my choice just like a PvPer can focus on combat right now (and I realize its my opinion) there are aspects that feel way too shallow for that to be a sustainable promise.

 

Personally, I think they should just lose the ruin tools specific crafting line, and merge its training with the harvesting line anyway.

With weapons, everyone wants/needs a weapon, so it has a universal market. Same with armor, or most of the other lines.

So unless there are going to be combat/crafting or other profession besides harvesting related ruins, there is literally no good reason to have a dedicated ruin crafting profession, that only services harvesters, when the tools are single step, easy to make, and possible for ANY crafter to get enough pips in the basics line to make them worth while.

Without pots, I can get by without needing to deal with a specific ruin crafter. Sure I could make better, but once BP's come on line, I only need to get lucky once to crank out a hundred, and as a harvester I'll have all my own supplies, so why would I trade for them?

I may buy a ruin tool BP, but I hardly need more than a basic crafter for that. It's a bait profession, or the realm of ALT accounts, or something a harvester picks up when they feel the need, not a full time player profession worthy of spending the one general training line an account has.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I have an article coming out where i think it will be the profession of the rich and infamous ... at least from what i have seen of the others. Tools are where a RC will start but the components for class weapons and Disciplines are where I think they will make their mark.

Maybe the Tools need revamp as you make some solid points for those who would consume them versus making them .


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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There are quite a few resource combinations which don't yield a stat boost--other than durability--but we're also only in "Phase 1" of crafting.  At this stage of development, that seems consistent with many alloy bar types only providing damage mitigation for armor.  Hopefully some combos are being reserved for factory/bp specialization or tracking/animal husbandry trees, or for after launch. 

Don't discount importance of dust to guilds and factory "foremen"--that may become coin of realm after first few campaigns are completed.  We just don't know enough about EK and campaign ruleset interactions yet to judge IMO.

It's also possible the CF staff hasn't revealed all planned stat combinations to public test community to provide tangible rewards to researchers after launch. 

Edited by Nasmyth
Updated info

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On 4/6/2017 at 10:35 AM, KrakkenSmacken said:

Personally, I think they should just lose the ruin tools specific crafting line, and merge its training with the harvesting line anyway.

With weapons, everyone wants/needs a weapon, so it has a universal market. Same with armor, or most of the other lines.

So unless there are going to be combat/crafting or other profession besides harvesting related ruins, there is literally no good reason to have a dedicated ruin crafting profession, that only services harvesters, when the tools are single step, easy to make, and possible for ANY crafter to get enough pips in the basics line to make them worth while.

Without pots, I can get by without needing to deal with a specific ruin crafter. Sure I could make better, but once BP's come on line, I only need to get lucky once to crank out a hundred, and as a harvester I'll have all my own supplies, so why would I trade for them?

I may buy a ruin tool BP, but I hardly need more than a basic crafter for that. It's a bait profession, or the realm of ALT accounts, or something a harvester picks up when they feel the need, not a full time player profession worthy of spending the one general training line an account has.

Runemakers get tools as their early recipes and early income and the stats on a runetool are huge and takes crafting pips to make higher quality tools...   no, basic crafters will not be supplying my tools.   Runecrafters then get the discipline recipes for their high level later skills.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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4 hours ago, Frykka said:

Runemakers get tools as their early recipes and early income and the stats on a runetool are huge and takes crafting pips to make higher quality tools...   no, basic crafters will not be supplying my tools.   Runecrafters then get the discipline recipes for their high level later skills.

All that may be true,  I just don't know see enough value add to a special built and expensive tool over a cheaper one when the replacement rate is so high. If it costs too much to buy from a rune crafter, harvesters will make due with cheap ones until absolutely needed, and bypass all those trying to make "early income" anyway.

 

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

All that may be true,  I just don't know see enough value add to a special built and expensive tool over a cheaper one when the replacement rate is so high. If it costs too much to buy from a rune crafter, harvesters will make due with cheap ones until absolutely needed, and bypass all those trying to make "early income" anyway.

 

I think there are several direct and indirect metrics to measure "value" -- which are you using in your assessment?  Quality of resources gained, quantity of resources gained, harvesting rate, and tool durability are some of those I've considered--time-related metrics also can feed into risk of discovery/combat.  I agree there is little direct quality to be gained harvesting Rank 1 resources in EK--although quantity and harvesting rate can be improved.  

I think there absolutely will be demand for non-basic tools -- especially by harvesters going into Dregs and higher risk campaigns. If you're considering a higher risk campaign, some of the nodes can't be quickly harvested without a runecrafted tool--whether an amazing white/good green/average blue.  The catch there is I don't see guild crafters giving/selling outside their guild -- likewise won't many of the high-end harvesters be affiliated with a guild anyway for security?  Some of this gameplay won't emerge until 3-5 months after launch depending on training paths/time chosen by harvesters and crafters--on Day 1 we're all equally good at PVP/crafting/harvesting (at least on paper)!  It could be interesting to analyze effect of grey tools since these will be next step up from basic and first available at launch.  

Edited by Nasmyth
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19 minutes ago, Nasmyth said:

I think there are several direct and indirect metrics to measure "value" -- which are you using in your assessment?  Quality of resources gained, quantity of resources gained, harvesting rate, and tool durability are some of those I've considered--time-related metrics also can feed into risk of discovery/combat.  I agree there is little direct quality to be gained harvesting Rank 1 resources in EK--although quantity and harvesting rate can be improved.  

I think there absolutely will be demand for non-basic tools -- especially by harvesters going into Dregs and higher risk campaigns. If you're considering a higher risk campaign, some of the nodes can't be quickly harvested without a runecrafted tool--whether an amazing white/good green/average blue.  The catch there is I don't see guild crafters giving/selling outside their guild -- likewise won't many of the high-end harvesters be affiliated with a guild anyway for security?  Some of this gameplay won't emerge until 3-5 months after launch depending on training paths/time chosen by harvesters and crafters--on Day 1 we're all equally good at PVP/crafting/harvesting (at least on paper)!  It could be interesting to analyze effect of grey tools since these will be next step up from basic and first available at launch.  

The only "metric" I have, are the experiences I have had so far.

Time to take down a node, does not seem that critical right now. I can solo clear a deposit, minus the mother load, with one basic tool faster than it can respawn.  Since harvesting is supposed to be a group endeavor, multiple players with crappy picks will make even shorter work of it, and move on quickly. A short foray into basic crafting will generate enough pips to attempt an amazing success green, BP it, and run one low level thrall.  

If they put too much quality material result buffing into the tools above that level, then training becomes less valuable, and they break the intent of "I don't want people with no skill to start chewing up nodes because they 'could'  very rarely produce something", and possibly making training less valuable.

If they don't put much quality materials results buffing into tools, it's just time on node and durability, which is frankly not worth spending high quality resources to get the same amount of high quality resources quicker, unless they dramatically decrease the respawn times of nodes. (Something I think they should do).

The current goals make it a catch 22. Make the gear important enough that you break the "no chewing" intent, or make it weak enough to not matter enough for it to be required.

I suspect the latter is where things are going to shake out, so dedicated rune tool crafters are going to have a hard time finding work. I think as it is now, it's going to be a profession of alts.

That said, they are doing some sort of skill revamp, so maybe it will be the crafting choice of dedicated harvesters.  Then there is no reason to remove the line.

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5 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

minus the mother load

Aaaand... there you have it folks!   Motherlode harvesting is essential to a guild competing for a win...   gems and minerals are key to putting our troops into vessels and jewelry.   Not only that but rolling your first high quality materials into tools gets you more high quality materials.   Without harvesting pots this will be a key strat.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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3 hours ago, Frykka said:

Aaaand... there you have it folks!   Motherlode harvesting is essential to a guild competing for a win...   gems and minerals are key to putting our troops into vessels and jewelry.   Not only that but rolling your first high quality materials into tools gets you more high quality materials.   Without harvesting pots this will be a key strat.

That's more a social construct, not a tool quality construct.  If you have 5 guys with crap picks, they can deal with the motherload just fine.  

You really only need that quality pick for one swing.  If they are needed then that becomes the other option.  Do the largest amount of work with the cheap breakables and untrained players, and then take the final 1-3 swings with an expensive pick and trained harvester.

Again that reduces the need for a dedicated rune crafter.  A single amazing BP that grinds you out 100 ideal picks is not exactly a lot of work for that crafter to survive on as a crafter.

I just don't think that's enough need to justify a full training line.  I could be wrong, but the work of ALT's is the way I see it heading.

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As it sits right now you need people trained to hit motherloads. Others cannot hit hard enough to get through the armor without ginormous quality picks.

With the way skills are set up alt's are the only way to go. And that is the basis of pay to win complaints. 

Too much interdependence just becomes dependence, and that is where we are at. People will have to have 3-4 alt accounts to be able to fill one role in a timely manner. and that is broken. 

The so called skills revamp had best be brilliant, more of this poorly made socks will not fly. 

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