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Baldking

Experimentation Nerf

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I can't help but feel that come soft launch we'll probably have alchemy potions for crafting and harvesting. Sure there will be Combat related ones but I can see alchemy being able to affect everything. It'd fit well with everything working together. I just hope that potions durability can be affected when alchemy does come around. 20+ potions sound fantastic. 

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1 hour ago, Xorlarrin said:

I have always wondered if the potions helped us reach true endgame or impossible numbers.  (mostly talking about crafting ones)

Pretty sure there are all kinds of stats not accounted for with the potions.

Tool durability is the first that comes to mind, critical harvest amount maybe, the second part about quality with plentiful resources also a maybe.

I know with the pots and training the quality of material goes up, but I'm not sure if that's stacking stats, or stats the pots don't cover. I suspect the later.

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11 hours ago, Baldking said:

What bothers me was that the change to the experimentation potion was unannounced in the patch notes.

This has been a feedback from me for a few weeks now...they give patch notes for things that are inconsequential (for testing, or seem inconsequential at least), but leave out QoL or more 'significant' changes...though, I will concede this may have been an unintended bug.

Though, tbh, the very first thing  I thought when I heard/read/saw this was that ACE was 'playing with the knobs' and seeing what a diminished potion might look like for launch/beta time.  I think many people have already voiced concerns over the slow start-up progress versus the ease of just using the pots, and they want a balance.  Again, it could have also just been a bug.

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3 hours ago, Xorlarrin said:

I have always wondered if the potions helped us reach true endgame or impossible numbers.  (mostly talking about crafting ones)

Yeah they did. 8 weeks ago a pot was giving effectively 100 skill in whatever it was you were drinking. They have been fiddling with the numbers ever since. First change I noticed was about 6 weeks ago when the base crafting all was dropped to 75 instead of 100. Then the pip nerf came and everyone noticed that. then 12 minute pots and most were nerfed then to lower numbers. Then another nerf 2 weeks ago. 

Gathering felt good when I first started, Ore was flowing, there were rank 7 nodes and even an 8 when the Corruption PVE server started that first week. Sure the 10 minute potions sucked, but while on them gathering was fun, even with the risk of ganking. That bugged Corruption server was the beginning of the end though. 

Week or two after that, no chest leather. Potions pip nerf, silent potions effectiveness nerfs.  Sure I have been training some in gathering, and still drinking potions because they help, but each and every node is a sodding chore. Every single week the reality sets in that their vision is more important than player fun. That the start of the cycle of the game, (gathering) is going to be a punishing, unfun, uninspired, grind of epic proportion.

Gatherers are just going to be required, because the players will need the mats to advance. It will be a chore, a duty to be upheld, a punishment for poor players to be shafted into gathering. Gathering is the most risk for the least reward, and since you will have to travel in packs to get anything and have to be specifically trained in singular ore nodes to get a good yield or chance at higher grades, you are only going to be as valuable as the ore skill you trained into. 

I honestly think they are screwing the pooch here. I know JTC says they have a huge skill revamp coming. We will see what is addressed. 

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4 hours ago, Baldking said:

I can't help but feel that come soft launch we'll probably have alchemy potions for crafting and harvesting. Sure there will be Combat related ones but I can see alchemy being able to affect everything. It'd fit well with everything working together. I just hope that potions durability can be affected when alchemy does come around. 20+ potions sound fantastic. 

That will make everything way 2 dependant on alchemist. I hope they dont have pot for harvesting crafting.


No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

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2 hours ago, srathor said:

Yeah they did. 8 weeks ago a pot was giving effectively 100 skill in whatever it was you were drinking. They have been fiddling with the numbers ever since. First change I noticed was about 6 weeks ago when the base crafting all was dropped to 75 instead of 100. Then the pip nerf came and everyone noticed that. then 12 minute pots and most were nerfed then to lower numbers. Then another nerf 2 weeks ago. 

Gathering felt good when I first started, Ore was flowing, there were rank 7 nodes and even an 8 when the Corruption PVE server started that first week. Sure the 10 minute potions sucked, but while on them gathering was fun, even with the risk of ganking. That bugged Corruption server was the beginning of the end though. 

Week or two after that, no chest leather. Potions pip nerf, silent potions effectiveness nerfs.  Sure I have been training some in gathering, and still drinking potions because they help, but each and every node is a sodding chore. Every single week the reality sets in that their vision is more important than player fun. That the start of the cycle of the game, (gathering) is going to be a punishing, unfun, uninspired, grind of epic proportion.

Gatherers are just going to be required, because the players will need the mats to advance. It will be a chore, a duty to be upheld, a punishment for poor players to be shafted into gathering. Gathering is the most risk for the least reward, and since you will have to travel in packs to get anything and have to be specifically trained in singular ore nodes to get a good yield or chance at higher grades, you are only going to be as valuable as the ore skill you trained into. 

I honestly think they are screwing the pooch here. I know JTC says they have a huge skill revamp coming. We will see what is addressed. 

Have you read my post about refiners? I think it could cover that gap. I should maybe make a post with more details.


No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

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Also leadership is not yet working and harvest and craft leaders will be like pots for these tasks...  they buff everything

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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6 hours ago, Baldking said:

I can't help but feel that come soft launch we'll probably have alchemy potions for crafting and harvesting. Sure there will be Combat related ones but I can see alchemy being able to affect everything. It'd fit well with everything working together. I just hope that potions durability can be affected when alchemy does come around. 20+ potions sound fantastic. 

Well, the biggest difference is that potions will be more difficult to acquire. What makes potions so valuable right now is not just that they are effective, but also very cheap.

1 hour ago, Xorlarrin said:

That will make everything way 2 dependant on alchemist. I hope they dont have pot for harvesting crafting.

I like it. Adding in something that, while not required, enhances your abilities, is a good mechanic. Still, they obviously have to be less powerful than they are right now.

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Potions may be cheap now but imagine the quality equalling what you put in and rolling experiments like any other craft. You'll end up using blue plants (i think that's where plant harvesting is gonna go) to make the good potions. I imagine the alchemy skill working like any other and being self buffing in the way blacksmith can. The difference being that alchemy will have bigger boosts for a shorter duration. Crafting armor can be forever if someone only used it on an ek to craft. There's still alot unknown though but I hope they can pull this off properly. 

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It does not matter if they add another skill. Even alchemy. You have to train to get the recipes, and training takes too damn long. And after you are done training to get the recipes you have to train to get the skill to make the items. And training takes too damn long. 

Then you have to train to get the skills to get the herbs in decent quantity, and training takes too damn long. Alt accounts and not playing on them once your pisstivity level gets too damn high will be the name of the game for the first few months to year. And that is too damn long. 

If a campaign lasts 4 months look at where your skills will be for that first campaign. For the second. For the third. Now a year in will you finally be able to get to having fun as a gatherer? Will you match the ability you had back in the poorly made socksty 10 minute potion pre alpha? 

I hope the supposed skills revamp is something good. Because gathering training is a god damn misallocated joke.

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On 4/8/2017 at 5:31 AM, Baldking said:

Anyone know why they nerfed the experimentation pot boost after so long? I'm just barely hitting my experimentation of a month ago now. Feels like my month of training was a waste. Like clearly they don't want me to craft. First they take my leather and now they make all my progress in my skills feel useless.

I am confused by your posting.

Yes, the experimentation potion nerf impacts crafters, however, the impact on non crafters is orders or magnitude more significant.

You seem to be measuring your current crafting abilities compared to where they were last week.  The relevant comparison is how good your items are relative to the set of other people who might plausibly craft an item.

FWIW, I thought that it was blatantly obvious that some kind of nerf was coming along fast.  People were already way too good at crafting compared to the amount of time that they were investing in the trees.

 


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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Bald, the pots were always going to be nerfed. They were a crutch, a mask for just how crappy the long term passive skills system is for the whole of the gathering/crafting side of the game. 

The fact that they were made at all kinda shocked me, but speaks to me after the 2 minute boost they got about just how wrong minded the devs are on the idea of temp boosts and the viability of the passive skills system. (Of course this is all my own opinion and people are sure to disagree, and I am fine with that.)

I railed so hard against the potions because the gathering system without them is a god damned disgrace. And taking a 10 minute reprieve from the suck of the system was a compounding of the suck. 

People want to be at least competent, the hero's journey starting with potty training and bedwetting would not be a very compelling one. That is what the gathering and crafting feels like. Gathering more than crafting though cause crafting has basic gear. (That is better than advanced gear <Cough cough>)

I was going to go into a long winded explanation of my points, but you know what, why bother. I know I want to rant, I have done it before. I am not going to change anyones mind. I care about this stupid custard project, and I paid because I cared. But that time is fleeting. Now I want my money recouped, but I know I can't ask for it back. So I am going to get entertainment in other ways. God I hope there is a magic beta patch that fixes everything. But i suppose a train wreck of sorts where nothing dies can be entertaining as well. Anyone have marshmallows? 

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22 minutes ago, narsille said:

You seem to be measuring your current crafting abilities compared to where they were last week.  The relevant comparison is how good your items are relative to the set of other people who might plausibly craft an item.

FWIW, I thought that it was blatantly obvious that some kind of nerf was coming along fast.  People were already way too good at crafting compared to the amount of time that they were investing in the trees.

 

I'm not particularly worried about how i compare to others atm. There will be a time when there's no possibilities of a wipe, Then and only then will i be competing against others. For now i wanted to get a feel of the skill progress and how i feel it improves over time. Does the skill difference make a noticeable improvement to where i feel i can reliably craft an item at a certain level? Do i get one step closer to making a perfect green, perfect blue, or a perfect purple? it's more about how i feel I'm progressing as my main focus is to craft and gather in the game. Will i end up fighting come beta and beyond?Of course. But for now my focus is crafting with a bit of harvesting.

Also the lack of warning does bother me. I already said this but it bears repeating, if it wasn't a bug or caused by the changes to parental to child stats, then i feel we should have been forewarned in the Patch notes. If 12 minute potions make the cut surely a 33% reduction to the experimentation potion would too.

You say we were too good at crafting but that's just compared to the resources we have available. How would we fare crafting with orange mats trying for the 50% risk bonus? Not well I'm sure if we even had enough points to make it worth crafting an orange weapon or armor piece. Is orange even gonna be the top quality tier? Also as a side note, rolling more pips was increasing the difficultly in getting greats and amazings substantially. If you wanted to make the best of the best legendary items, even being close to maxed out on rune-crafting, rolling 10 pips at once had no guarantee of a great or higher result.

People say that the rarer mats will be harder to get but how hard was it to harvest a rank 7 or 8 node when they were implemented. Hard but doable until you got better equipment. i got my first 3 Orange Iron with a +30 pickax on a Rank 7 node. It was tough and slow but i could harvest it. Better crafting helps not only us but the impact on non crafters is orders or magnitude more significant. Harvesters with actual skill and someone with leadership abilities in the party with great gear will be amazing. The speed and quality that they will harvest. Like Srathor said earlier the harvesting skill alone feels slow to train. Having a working relationship with crafters will be key to them. Once they really get into the tree hopefully they'll have better and better returns from nodes, which will trickle to the crafters they want gear from. Same thing with crafters selling to Pkers ( My term for combat specialists) I'm positive that Pkers will find plenty of resources to barter with too.

It's 126 days (+42 if you get the thrall specialty tree)  to get mastery in a crafting skill (Blacksmithing 140 + 23 for Salvage), assuming you go straight for the skill it's another 18 days in basic.I don't see the lack of time invested in the skills here. Even just rushing for the experimentation mastery will take at least 45 days (Could be off by a few days. Went off memory) after getting into the skill. Mastering all the crafting trees alone would take years? Let alone how many other skills there are to work on. Vessels, Leadership, Mass production. While we all know changes were coming, i imagined the crafting changes to happen after Crafting phase 2 was announced as rolling out soon. 

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12 minutes ago, srathor said:

Bald, the pots were always going to be nerfed. They were a crutch, a mask for just how crappy the long term passive skills system is for the whole of the gathering/crafting side of the game. 

The fact that they were made at all kinda shocked me, but speaks to me after the 2 minute boost they got about just how wrong minded the devs are on the idea of temp boosts and the viability of the passive skills system. (Of course this is all my own opinion and people are sure to disagree, and I am fine with that.)

Whose to say Pots won't be a permanent part of the system. There's an alchemy tree for a reason. Maybe they'll make the current pots into basic weaker pots that don't boost you pass a specific skill level in a stat. I.e Basic harvesting and crafting potions that do 1/4 or 1/5 of the current boost. Enough to let people craft whites at an average level. Would it suck in the beginning. Yes of course. But I've played games where it takes awhile to craft and work your way up to building a castle before. The beginning always sucks. But after soft launch a month later? We'll start to have all the crafters, harvesters, and Pkers. We'll have sworn enemies and allies made in the first campaign. (Or even before... Damn you Sugoi!) Our groups of friends ever expanding to help one another.  Maybe they'll have a system like this one in alpha to ease people into the first month so we can actually play. Who knows. But our feedback, this right now, is what could change it. If they want to be a good game company then they'll see our complaints and worries and address them. They may have a vision, but i refuse to believe that WE THE CROWFALL COMMUNITY, cannot influence that vision. They'd be fools to ignore their early testers. This is still Alpha Srathor. Wait til at least open beta to lose faith. Perhaps this is just a rough period in the long road to Victory.

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2 hours ago, Baldking said:

I'm not particularly worried about how i compare to others atm. There will be a time when there's no possibilities of a wipe, Then and only then will i be competing against others. For now i wanted to get a feel of the skill progress and how i feel it improves over time. Does the skill difference make a noticeable improvement to where i feel i can reliably craft an item at a certain level? Do i get one step closer to making a perfect green, perfect blue, or a perfect purple? it's more about how i feel I'm progressing as my main focus is to craft and gather in the game. Will i end up fighting come beta and beyond?Of course. But for now my focus is crafting with a bit of harvesting.

I guess that's where we differ...

At this stage of the game, my interest in not in crafting the "perfect" green or purple or orange item.  (Its not like that perfect pick is going to last for more than 20 minutes or so)

Rather, I am trying to learn as much about the crafting system as I can so I can generate appropriate statistical models that allow me to accurate predict what a perfect orange pick might look like.  (FWIW, I have a pretty good idea)  Even more important, I want to be able to understand how crafting can be done efficiently.  How many gold harvesters do we need versus iron harvesters?  What is the optimal way to combine different qualities of ore in order to maximize yield.  Most important of all, what type of information needs to be collected to make well informed decisions.

FWIW, I don't have any expectations that specific parameters are going to stay fixed come launch.  I expect that I am going to need to re-start this process from ground zero.  However, I do expect the processes that I am developing will carry over and I am hopeful that Sugoi will be in a good position to hit the ground running.

Edited by narsille

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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3 minutes ago, narsille said:

At this stage of the game, my interest in not in crafting the "perfect" green or purple or orange item.  (Its not like that perfect pick is going to last for more than 20 minutes or so)

Rather, I am trying to learn as much about the crafting system as I can so I can generate appropriate statistical models that allow me to accurate predict what a perfect orange pick might look like.  (, I have a pretty good idea)  Even more important, I want to be able to understand how crafting can be done efficiently.  How many gold harvesters do we need versus iron harvesters?  What is the optimal way to combine different qualities of ore in order to maximize yield.  Most important of all, what type of information needs to be collected to make well informed decisions.

Ah but it's easier for me to make 30 bars over and over trying to make a perfect item then to just craft and document for me. It's rather hard for me to document unless i have a specific goal. A goal i can progress towards. I need something to drive me besides research. i am a guild-less after all. So most of my data is to just help myself. i admit i lost a bit of interest with the lack of leather the last few weeks before they returned it. i was just making and recorded white bars over and over. But now that data is likely inaccurate so I'll restart it now to at least see what the last 10-20 experimentation points i have left to skill do to roll results. Shame i was about to repeat my 50 blue pickaxes to see what my 120 compares to my 82 experimentation when they lowered the potions.

Also lately most of my focus has been towards my blacksmithing skill since those armors last forever in PVE and will boost itself. Just an FYI before you call out my 10 minute picks. (About 20-25 nodes depending on the mining level) :P

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3 hours ago, Baldking said:

Ah but it's easier for me to make 30 bars over and over trying to make a perfect item then to just craft and document for me. It's rather hard for me to document unless i have a specific goal. A goal i can progress towards. I need something to drive me besides research.

That perfect pick that you hope to make means nothing more than a lucky dice roll plus a bunch of passive training.  Where is the accomplishment in that?

Practical knowledge about how the crafting system works...

That has true value today and in the years ahead...

Edited by narsille

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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2 hours ago, narsille said:

hat perfect pick that you hope to make means nothing more than a lucky dice roll plus a bunch of passive training.  Where is the accomplishment in that?

In a pick that has only 2 sets of rolls there's not much accomplishment. I've already rolled a perfect pick up to blue. Purple was to be next for rune-crafting. But i was really trying for perfect armors. Not only that but how many tries to make the first, the 2nd, 3rd and so forth. All while documenting. Why does me having a fun useless goal bother you so much? Games can be fun even when testing right? Last i knew i wasn't breaking any rules trying to enjoy myself. I know the armor isn't that important, but every little extra point increase felt like improvement. The illusion of progress in what seems like a slow passive system. I just started my blacksmith tree on my alt. So i was just starting to see those same improvements before the Nerf. I don't get lucky and roll a perfect. RNGus doesn't like me like that. I have to grind for things. My first perfect green didn't come until over 100 Runecrafting, the blue around i got by making around 80 pickaxes in my total playtime. and that was the only one. (Yes i know now that i could have probably rolled more at the expense of more crappy picks.) The value you speak of can disappear as easily as my perfect picks Narsille. This is PRE-ALPHA. Everything can be completely changed. Will it? Most likely not, but the fact remains they it can. So while data is all well and good, i need something stupid and fun and absolutely irrational to drive me. A perfect white row has only 3 pips to roll. But it's still a pain to get amazings on 10 bars and 2 Leather stitches, then the crossguard, grips, and pommel. The shaft, hilt and weapon head, then the final product. Then to do it again on the armor. Then to make a rune-crafting set, then do a green set, or blue set to see how rolling 4 or 6 pips compares. Nearly every roll I've made is documented :P 

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1 hour ago, Baldking said:

I don't get lucky and roll a perfect. RNGus doesn't like me like that. I have to grind for things. My first perfect green didn't come until over 100 Runecrafting, the blue around i got by making around 80 pickaxes in my total playtime. and that was the only one. (Yes i know now that i could have probably rolled more at the expense of more crappy picks.) The value you speak of can disappear as easily as my perfect picks Narsille. This is PRE-ALPHA. Everything can be completely changed. Will it? Most likely not, but the fact remains they it can.  

Comment the first:  I recommend taking a look at the following thread which discusses using Monte Carlo simulations to predict the expected quality of your rolls

Comment the second:  While individual parameters may change, perhaps even entire blocks of code, I would be very surprised if the methodologies to explore the design space don't carry over... 

Edited by narsille

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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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