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Xorlarrin

Experiment risk

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Krakken Smacken Said

I don't agree.  Campaigns will be varied in import rules.  If Uncle Bob leaks into the issue, simply change the import rules to lock out the locked "best stuff".

The best stuff does not need to be items. Uncle Bob is once removed because the best stuff are the trained Gatherer and trained craftsman accounts. (Which will be alt accounts on anyone smart who wants power without the drudgery)

Ahh well fun to talk about but who knows what will actually filter down. Hell after the last few weeks I have major doubts about the whole damn game. But the money is spent so I will see what happens.
 

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15 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't agree.  Campaigns will be varied in import rules.  If Uncle Bob leaks into the issue, simply change the import rules to lock out the locked "best stuff".

Actually, it kinda would be a cool system.

I do not think it makes any sort of real world sense that you can end up worse at making something because you're better at a skill. Aesthetically that is horrible, and that is also important.

I was hoping that the way they would keep/make new players more relevant was because of thrall and work bench slots, and the time it takes to craft higher end gear, and how important higher end thralls are to mass production, so much so that no high end player would waste their bench or crafting time building low end gear.  

Not that they literally couldn't, just that it would be poor exchange on their part if there was something, anything else they could be building high end.

 

I am trying to see it as putting my time to better use. Don't get me wrong I don't like it, just trying to see it in a better light.


No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

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16 hours ago, Xorlarrin said:

The reason behind this is the risk % being at 25 per pips on untrained craftmen. At 35 skill I have 10% risk per pip, at 82 I have 9.09% and at 130 I have 6.25%. 

Meaning that its it was impossible for me to get the best white item quality despite being deep into the crafting tree. I would like to see "more training better quality". I understand the blueprints concept, but I do think if you spend 5-6 month training a tree, you should make superior quality items. 

They need to balance out that 50% risk I don't think it is a fair mechanic for hardened crafters. I honestly do not have anything to suggest other than experience > lower risk > better items.

 

I am still new to the game and did not realize that as your crafting increases, the risk bonus decreases. That does seem a bit unfair. It would seem as though as you become better at crafting, the bonus should remain the same, but the baseline for the bonus should also increase. Therefore any success would automatically have better stats than someone of lesser skill. Any Amazing Success with Full Pips would factor in the crafting bonus as normal/beginner crafter.

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2 hours ago, Xorlarrin said:

See it this way, with the 50% increase stats anything green / white could surpass a low/middle range blue that will be significantly harder to make, not counting the ''rarity'' of the ressource.

I'm not certain this is true, because a blue quality metal bar will have enough pips slots such that even a master blacksmith with maxed out pips will be able to spend >=50% of his pips and score himself the 50% bonus.  I don't have maxed pips in anything yet (and the maximum number of pips available may change as the game develops) so I am not 100% certain blue quality materials will be the 'tipping point' for maxed crafters and the 50% bonus to stats.  If you look beyond the base materials (metal bars, planks, etc.), I think the tipping point may come even earlier, green quality swords seem to have enough pip slots that you might be over 50% of pips used for a maxed crafter.

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Actually, it kinda would be a cool system.

I do not think it makes any sort of real world sense that you can end up worse at making something because you're better at a skill. Aesthetically that is horrible, and that is also important.

I was hoping that the way they would keep/make new players more relevant was because of thrall and work bench slots, and the time it takes to craft higher end gear, and how important higher end thralls are to mass production, so much so that no high end player would waste their bench or crafting time building low end gear.  

Not that they literally couldn't, just that it would be poor exchange on their part if there was something, anything else they could be building high end.

 

I agree with you, it doesn't make real world sense at all, and the mechanics of this may drive people bananas.  "Oh, I'm sorry - I can make that item for you, but if you let Krakken craft the metal bars for you and then give me the those base materials, you'll get a better weapon in the end" - that seems like an inconvenience most people won't want to suffer.

Furthermore - blueprints are tradeable/sellable, right?  If you are a master crafter and you really need a buttload of white quality bars for some reason, couldn't you buy your thrall an Amazing Success bar with +50% risk bonus blueprint and have him pound out the bars for you?  Maybe the real market opportunity here for lower skilled crafters (as they are developing) is to sell blueprints?  There's still a dependence on lower level crafters for the blueprints, but mastercrafters can still do the work on their own terms.  Certainly, if there is a demand for blue prints of white bars, a supply of them will appear.       

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1 hour ago, srathor said:
The best stuff does not need to be items. Uncle Bob is once removed because the best stuff are the trained Gatherer and trained craftsman accounts. (Which will be alt accounts on anyone smart who wants power without the drudgery)

Ahh well fun to talk about but who knows what will actually filter down. Hell after the last few weeks I have major doubts about the whole damn game. But the money is spent so I will see what happens.
 

Exactly my thoughts as of late - as I test more (I have only tested in the past 3 weeks), I am harboring more doubts about the way alt-accounts will be handled.  I sure as hell don't want my "main" job to be harvesting so I can supply the guild while the combat trained folks get to go out there and fight/gank/skirmish.  The thing is, someone has to do it, and currently the best option to me is to have an alt that gathers/crafts, and a main that fights, but we shall see :) 

Maybe guild size restrictions will play into this - sure, your harvesters won't be as effective as combatants but if your guild only has enough leadership points (or however the system works out) to have 30 members, alt-accounts may not be feasible.  Would you rather have 30 people but a mix of harvesters/crafters/combatants for a big fight, or 10-15 combat trained players because the other 15-20 guild members are actually just alt accounts?

The reassuring portion to me is that I don't think the Uncle Bob issue will factor in as much as you suggest - I think the inner bands, where the material quality is highest will see veteran players with trained crafting/gathering skills.  Untrained accounts probably won't stand a chance in that band and maybe that is a good thing.  You have to cut your teeth in the outerbands first where the maximum resource quality is green/blue and your untrained harvesting skills won't inhibit you quite so badly.  Purple/Orange gear vs. White/Green gear is one thing, Blue/green gear vs. white/green gear is going to be much more fair. 

Edited by Izalea

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The only way a good green will surpass a blue is if you're not trained enough to roll properly. Every successful craft of a rarity type seems to get a little modifier to it. White = 5%, green =10%, blue = 15% and so on. So every successful layer to an item will strengthen it. Could an amazing with the 50% green beat a success blue. Probably. But if you can only pump out success and moderates you probably should stick to lower quality anyways. As for my other point if you can roll amazing at one pip 50% of the time and the rest great but are making an item where you need to roll 8-10 pips at once for the bonus and would struggle to get a good or great result. Wouldn't the single pip be better? Especially if you don't have resources to waste. Guarantee of a good safe result for an early blue print. After that you can try to make better ones when you have more resources. 

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16 minutes ago, Izalea said:

I'm not certain this is true, because a blue quality metal bar will have enough pips slots such that even a master blacksmith with maxed out pips will be able to spend >=50% of his pips and score himself the 50% bonus.  I don't have maxed pips in anything yet (and the maximum number of pips available may change as the game develops) so I am not 100% certain blue quality materials will be the 'tipping point' for maxed crafters and the 50% bonus to stats.  If you look beyond the base materials (metal bars, planks, etc.), I think the tipping point may come even earlier, green quality swords seem to have enough pip slots that you might be over 50% of pips used for a maxed crafter.

I agree with you, it doesn't make real world sense at all, and the mechanics of this may drive people bananas.  "Oh, I'm sorry - I can make that item for you, but if you let Krakken craft the metal bars for you and then give me the those base materials, you'll get a better weapon in the end" - that seems like an inconvenience most people won't want to suffer.

Furthermore - blueprints are tradeable/sellable, right?  If you are a master crafter and you really need a buttload of white quality bars for some reason, couldn't you buy your thrall an Amazing Success bar with +50% risk bonus blueprint and have him pound out the bars for you?  Maybe the real market opportunity here for lower skilled crafters (as they are developing) is to sell blueprints?  There's still a dependence on lower level crafters for the blueprints, but mastercrafters can still do the work on their own terms.  Certainly, if there is a demand for blue prints of white bars, a supply of them will appear.       

As I understand it, players will get a limited number of thrall or workbench slots per crow/campaign. so the pipe could be Blueprints AND finished products. 

If for example a master craftsman wants to bootstrap a rapier, with mostly white components, and a single blue piece, they could build a master crafted blue bar run, make the blade out of two of them, and then hit up the lesser crafters for a run of perfect white hilts.

Then start to craft the finished weapon with a blue blade, and white hilt, until they hit on a fully blue finished weapon, BP that, and run as many as they can from it.

Yes the white componentes along the way will have less quality potential than their blue counter parts would, so it would not be quite as good as a full blue, but it would still show up as blue in the store and final product.

There are all sorts of interesting combinations possible and degrees of success possible. It's all going to settle very far from the item color, and more on the final stats.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Baldking said:

The only way a good green will surpass a blue is if you're not trained enough to roll properly. Every successful craft of a rarity type seems to get a little modifier to it. White = 5%, green =10%, blue = 15% and so on. So every successful layer to an item will strengthen it. Could an amazing with the 50% green beat a success blue. Probably. But if you can only pump out success and moderates you probably should stick to lower quality anyways. As for my other point if you can roll amazing at one pip 50% of the time and the rest great but are making an item where you need to roll 8-10 pips at once for the bonus and would struggle to get a good or great result. Wouldn't the single pip be better? Especially if you don't have resources to waste. Guarantee of a good safe result for an early blue print. After that you can try to make better ones when you have more resources. 

In a world of BP's, that is the one case where individual pips at a time make sense.  

When you have limited resources and can't afford to not have it at least work.  The kind of situation that if you did luck out and roll that perfect result, you would agonize because there is no way to make a viable BP out of it.

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My two cents: I think the way the 50% bonus depends on risk chance needs to be changed; link it to flat number of pips spent or something else that doesn't become harder to do as your skill gets higher.

I do want new crafters to have a niche to fill in a world full of experienced crafters, but not if it means experienced crafters being strictly unable to make something a novice can (like an amazing +50% max stat white item for blueprinting). That's just.. jarring. Aesthetically displeasing, as Krakken would put it.

Imagine the consequences: you have let's say two accounts, a crafter and a gatherer. One is a master blacksmith, the other a master miner. If you're against the concept of alt accounts (a position I sympathize with but feel will prove impractical, although that's another discussion..), say that the miner is a close friend you work with instead of an alt. You'll have situations where your blacksmith will get the miner to craft blacksmithing items, because the low-skill miner can make certain smithing items better than the master blacksmith is capable of. There mere thought of it is aggravating to me; it defies all logic and sense of progression.

Of course the miner may need some blacksmithing training to even have the recipes available, but if this system remains the way it is, I expect that to become commonplace. A small skill investment that lets you craft common low-quality items that will probably be widely used and in demand, and you can craft them better than your master blacksmith friend can? People will jump on it, out of economic necessity.

There are better ways to give novice crafters a niche. There should soft limitations that make it impractical, but not impossible for an experienced blacksmith to churn out max quality white bars. He should avoid white bars because he can do better, cooler stuff with his limited time/factory slots/etc. - not because the game mechanics tell him he cannot.

Edited by Avloren

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6 minutes ago, Avloren said:

I expect that to become commonplace. A small skill investment that lets you craft common low-quality items that will probably be widely used and in demand, and you can craft them better than your master blacksmith friend can? People will jump on it, out of economic necessity.

 

This is a nagging concern for me in a campaign full pvp environment. If skills training can mitigate a lot of the need for green/blue items for a huge % of the event then why would ppl spend the time to train to have 10 pips when 5 pips will do in 72% of the cases?


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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2 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

This is a nagging concern for me in a campaign full pvp environment. If skills training can mitigate a lot of the need for green/blue items for a huge % of the event then why would ppl spend the time to train to have 10 pips when 5 pips will do in 72% of the cases?

Yeah I've had that thought as well. Even if they 'fix' experimentation so that all crafters can make max quality white items, that may not be enough to encourage deep investment in crafting skills. If the main advantage of being a master crafter is how well you can make green+ or blue+ items, that could prove to be quite a small niche depending on availability of resources. But I'm holding off on complaining about that particular problem, I think it's a bit too soon to predict.

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18 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

This is a nagging concern for me in a campaign full pvp environment. If skills training can mitigate a lot of the need for green/blue items for a huge % of the event then why would ppl spend the time to train to have 10 pips when 5 pips will do in 72% of the cases?

All of the numbers are not set in place. They are first pass numbers that will change when they get to the balancing stage. Right now they are in the "get as much poorly made socks in the game in a basic form" phase.

That means the skill training (amount of time, bonuses, etc) will change. The crafting numbers will change. The stats on equipment will change.

We shouldn't be looking at the numbers right now, just whether the systems actually do what they say. When you craft a sword... do you get a sword? does it give a chest piece instead? does it crash? does it accept the materials it says? does it consume the materials? That's the type of stuff to worry about, not whether it's worth it to train certain skills because the bonus isn't good enough.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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25 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

This is a nagging concern for me in a campaign full pvp environment. If skills training can mitigate a lot of the need for green/blue items for a huge % of the event then why would ppl spend the time to train to have 10 pips when 5 pips will do in 72% of the cases?

14 minutes ago, Avloren said:

Yeah I've had that thought as well. Even if they 'fix' experimentation so that all crafters can make max quality white items, that may not be enough to encourage deep investment in crafting skills. If the main advantage of being a master crafter is how well you can make green+ or blue+ items, that could prove to be quite a small niche depending on availability of resources. But I'm holding off on complaining about that particular problem, I think it's a bit too soon to predict.

Hmm.

Skills deep in crafting tree could shave off ressource cost instead of crafting speed, making lets say a metal bar cost 8-7-6 ore instead or 9. Master at your craft. Helping cover that gap. Better quality material = less waste.

 

 


No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

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13 minutes ago, Svenn said:

All of the numbers are not set in place. They are first pass numbers that will change when they get to the balancing stage. Right now they are in the "get as much poorly made socks in the game in a basic form" phase.

That means the skill training (amount of time, bonuses, etc) will change. The crafting numbers will change. The stats on equipment will change.

We shouldn't be looking at the numbers right now, just whether the systems actually do what they say. When you craft a sword... do you get a sword? does it give a chest piece instead? does it crash? does it accept the materials it says? does it consume the materials? That's the type of stuff to worry about, not whether it's worth it to train certain skills because the bonus isn't good enough.

Oh, you are right, I think we all know.

 

Were just letting some of the steam out speculating in here :). Who knows, it might give some ideas to ACE at the same time.

 

Were all eager for leather!

Edited by Xorlarrin

No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

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13 minutes ago, Svenn said:

All of the numbers are not set in place. They are first pass numbers that will change when they get to the balancing stage. Right now they are in the "get as much poorly made socks in the game in a basic form" phase.

That means the skill training (amount of time, bonuses, etc) will change. The crafting numbers will change. The stats on equipment will change.

We shouldn't be looking at the numbers right now, just whether the systems actually do what they say. When you craft a sword... do you get a sword? does it give a chest piece instead? does it crash? does it accept the materials it says? does it consume the materials? That's the type of stuff to worry about, not whether it's worth it to train certain skills because the bonus isn't good enough.

I said it was a nagging concern not a rage quit item .... they way the process currently works with the numbers they have as placeholders adds to my nagging concern. Could the knobs be twisted and the concern go away? sure ... but talking about the concerns and how we perceive their current numbers is healthy and useful. It allows us to help talk about what numbers could work, giving a crowd source like dialog to the team. What they do with that feedback is up to them, but testing the creation of the sword was done weeks ago.  this is not the first pass of the numbers, we have seen significant changes in the pots, in the amount of pips and even restructuring of the skill trees by added gated skills for specialty materials. The time for feedback is while they are still making changes not after process are in place and its expensive it man-hours and timing of the game to change. Between the community countless 'items' have been created countless times over, we are far beyond the add materials do I get a sword. 

I will worry what I will worry about and others will worry about what they worry about, combined we give feedback to the dev in an open forum and the system works. 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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I keep seeing people commenting about how this is a first pass. They will get to it later. 

No they won't, not this stuff. It works. Good enough, yeah there are some quirks, but in the long run they have much bigger fish to fry. 

Sadly I think I will be saying that to myself much more often as well. Hope and trust are fleeting things, and while it is my issues with what I am seeing that disturb me, I have lost a lot of that hope and trust.

Future Todd and Future Blair have a lot of work to do. 

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46 minutes ago, Svenn said:

All of the numbers are not set in place. They are first pass numbers that will change when they get to the balancing stage. Right now they are in the "get as much poorly made socks in the game in a basic form" phase.

That means the skill training (amount of time, bonuses, etc) will change. The crafting numbers will change. The stats on equipment will change.

We shouldn't be looking at the numbers right now, just whether the systems actually do what they say. When you craft a sword... do you get a sword? does it give a chest piece instead? does it crash? does it accept the materials it says? does it consume the materials? That's the type of stuff to worry about, not whether it's worth it to train certain skills because the bonus isn't good enough.

I've been trying to see if the experiment multipliers line up consistently. If I get a 36% it should increase my stat by 36% right. Otherwise I see no reason for it to show me such and such percent if that's not my actual experimentation increase. I want to be able to theory craft items and figure out how using this material instead of this will change the final craft. I know the numbers are subject to change but for now they should be consistent in how they are applied. 

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On 4/11/2017 at 11:04 AM, srathor said:

After the first year of campaigns it will be the same as any other mmo. The old established guilds will have a lock on the best crafted stuff and crush anyone in the new worlds that are not old and established. 

Uncle Bob has not been solved, he just got once removed. After the first few campaigns it will be business as usual.

Passive training is fine for some aspects, but having the gathering skills and crafting skills gated behind the massive time sink just means the first 1-2 campaigns are fresh and unsullied, after that the multi account trained players will Uncle Bob the poorly made socks out of everything.

I could see something like this happening also, but that established guild would need to have stockpiles of resources. However, I don't think it would discourage new players, because there will always be a market for items as things decay and if that guild wants to monopolize everything, it would require tons of work. I just feel like there will always be a market for the new player.

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