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jasta85

Discussion about damage being tracked by separate body parts

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So, the devs have said several times that your limbs, head, torso being protected separately by whatever armor is equipped to those parts, so if you have some epic breastplate but only a beginner's helmet and get hit in the head your breastplate isn't going to do anything (well, unless it gives you an overall health boost or something).  They have also said that some attacks will target specific parts of the body, like an arrow to the knee :P

But I see a few problems with this:

1. It's going to be very hard to tell where an opponent's weak points are: Armor is crafted, meaning there is going to be a huge variety and even the same general pieces of armor are going to have different stats.  So just by looking at an opponent, how do you know if their gloves have less defenses than their helmet?  or if their breastplate has fire resistance and their boots have ice resistance?  Being able to target individual body parts doesn't matter if we don't know which parts are the best to target.  Or do we get some kind of body radar of the enemy that shows the armor and resistances of all his individual limbs?

2. We cannot aim most attacks: Most attacks that I see in the game right now don't target specific body parts, they just hit the enemy, and you have no control over attack animations so even if you know that the enemy has crappy boots just spamming your normal attack is going to hit whatever part of the body it hits, you can't aim at the opponent's feet.

3. For abilities that do target a specific part of the body (a headshot attack for example) there is no flexibility in that move, it's always going to hit the head.  And if your opponent is wearing some legendary helmet that makes their head almost immune to damage it may actually be a bad idea to use that ability as it will do less damage than your other attacks that just hit random body parts of the opponent.  Unless you have some way of choosing to attack certain body parts with your abilities, what is the point of locational damage?

4. Most archetypes of specific types of damage they specialize in: The confessor specializes in fire for example, and does not have any other options of damage aside from maybe some disciplines, but those are not something you can switch out in a fight as far as I know.  So if you are a confessor and are up against someone with armor that has huge fire resist, you're kind of screwed, as you have no alternative types of damage to switch to in the middle of a fight.  This is just one example, but most archetypes are stuck with a certain set of skills and damage types with the only alternatives being disciplines, so if they get matched up against an opponent who has armor that perfectly counters their damage, what do they do?

I like the idea of damage being locational, but if we cannot tell what an opponent's weak points are, cannot aim at those weak points with most attacks, and not change the location where our aimed attacks do hit, how exactly do we use this system to our advantage.  It seems to me people are just going to pick whatever armor is best and just spam as many attacks as they can at the opponent regardless of what part of the body they hit, because what else can we do?

If I'm missing something please let me know.

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The only way I could see this working is if the spells specifically designate which part of the body they hit.

Aside from that the hitboxes and registration aren't refined enough to really have tight accurate swings and location-based damage so it would just kind of be some fluffy system. 

Location based damage just seems silly if it's not being caused by your aim, but I could see it adding a layer of depth as long as it is pretty consistent on which abilities hit where.  Like achilles shot hitting the boots and heart pierce hitting the chest, something like that conceptually.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I like the original post so much I would take it out to dinner.

That said, I feel obliged to mention that in regards to point 4, this would be a problem if the target had 1 armor mitigation value for the whole body, or 4 different ones. In fact, it is slightly less of a problem with 4 different armor pieces, because at least the chance exists that not all the pieces have the same resistance.

Beyond that, I do not think you are missing anything and I agree completely.

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1:  I agree

2:  I kind of agree.  Trip - Feet, Blind - Head, Knockdown - Body, Disarm - Hand (my guess)

3:  I agree

4:  Discipline runes can add/adjust damage types

Edited by Mr. Kurtz
Correction

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I should also say that I think this is an artifact of a system which may intend to use the 4 armor slots like crafting slots, to produce a system similar to that we use when combining materials of different types to get various modifiers. For example, when making metal bars. The armor sets are planned to have bonuses in terms modifiers, and it was stated that we would be able to determine what bonuses those would be....this may be how they plan to do it.

So for example, you may have the following:

Head: Plate, Gloves: Plate, Boots: Chain, Chest: Leather, and this would great you one set of modifiers, which may include power modifiers, where Head: Leather, Gloves: Chain, Boots: Plate, Chest: Plate would grant a different set. With 3 types and 4 slots, you could get quite a few combinations...could be interesting.

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6 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The only way I could see this working is if the spells specifically designate which part of the body they hit.

Aside from that the hitboxes and registration aren't refined enough to really have tight accurate swings and location-based damage so it would just kind of be some fluffy system. 

Location based damage just seems silly if it's not being caused by your aim, but I could see it adding a layer of depth as long as it is pretty consistent on which abilities hit where.  Like achilles shot hitting the boots and heart pierce hitting the chest, something like that conceptually.

Camelot unchained has a very similar system to this. I can see abilities in CF have similar location modifiers, althrough I think I'd prefer location damage be caused by more granular aiming.

Edited by Helix

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34 minutes ago, Helix said:

Camelot unchained has a very similar system to this. I can see abilities in CF have similar location modifiers, althrough I think I'd prefer location damage be caused by more granular aiming.

Except in CU its heavily woven into a far more innovative damage and healing system
 

Quote

 

http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/combat/

Each part of a character’s body is protected only by its own piece of armor

Unlike the way of most games, armor only protects the part of the body that it covers. Your helm doesn’t help you when you are struck on the leg!

Body parts take damage individually, and each part has its own pool of health and injury effects

A shoulder wound could reduce how fast you can swing a sword, but it won’t stop you from running away

Player-created abilities can add a modular component to target a specific region of the body

Paying careful attention can give the attacker an advantage, but if you target an area that the defender is guarding or quickly moves to protect, the advantage could shift

Certain components will also allow a defender, after a successful defense, to perform a special counter-attack on the attacker

Further detail from my head [obviously its still pre alpha too!]

Wounds apply temporary debuffs to targets and must be cured in combat and will also cap the maximum amount of life on that body part until cured.

[e.g. multiple progressive wounds on a body part at 66% or 33% etc that would cap maximum healable health for that body part until cured

along with worseing debuffs e.g. arms = slower power activation or legs = slower run speed etc]

You can target the head, chest, legs and arms - but can only kill by depleting the health of either their head or chest.

However on top of that players have a 'blood pool' which is harder to heal [basically only slower regen type effects] and fuels the casting of magic.

If you run out of blood from wounds, using magic or bleeding effects you also die.

Edited by Tinnis

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Yeah every time they mention hit locations i basicly bring this up. Its complexity for its ownsake.

If i have 5 abilities and one of them hits the feet, who cares? Unless i can change the target of all 5 abilities to the feet, whats the point of it? 

And lets say they create a new combat system that allows me to change the target of all my abilities...well then they need to create a new system on top of that to allow me to find the weakness.

Honestly, its just alot of work for a level of depth that i dont feel is lacking. This stuff works in tab targetting games, Camelot Unchained is doing a version of it to disable body parts. I just dont think its needed in Crowfall.

Edited by Vectious

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5 hours ago, Mr. Kurtz said:

1:  I agree

2:  I kind of agree.  Trip - Feet, Blind - Head, Knockdown - Body, Disarm - Hand (my guess)

3:  I agree

4:  Discipline runes can add/adjust damage types

For #2 we already have abilities that have status effects like knockdown, blind, stun etc.  Abilities don't need to target body parts to have status effects, it's just built into the ability.  And even if hitting a certain body parts with normal attacks does have a status effect we still cannot target them so it would basically be like a slot machine whenever you attack, hoping you hit the body part you want to get the desired status effect.

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8 minutes ago, jasta85 said:

For #2 we already have abilities that have status effects like knockdown, blind, stun etc.  Abilities don't need to target body parts to have status effects, it's just built into the ability.  And even if hitting a certain body parts with normal attacks does have a status effect we still cannot target them so it would basically be like a slot machine whenever you attack, hoping you hit the body part you want to get the desired status effect.

I am a bit unsure how to respond.  I know we have the ability accomplish those things.  That is why I brought them up. 

I do understand what you are saying.

What I should have said is - if I had to guess, the damage caused by the already existing attacks such as  knockdown, blind, disarm and trip would do so to the corresponding areas.

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Like Vectious said, it's complexity for the sake of complexity.  Without the ability to choose where you're attacking the hit boxes really add nothing to the game.  The only effect I can see is making it more difficult to gear up.  If you want a certain balance of resistances you'll need to get that same mix on each armor piece, instead of just getting the balance out of the total.  Maybe that's part of the devs' reasoning.

With how much talk there always is about limited developer resources and doing X of Y if there are enough resources to do so, the entire hitbox concept just seems like a big waste of effort.  Not to mention it will add more calculations that the server needs to handle.

Maybe there's an aspect that hasn't been revealed yet.  As things are now however this really feels like a design choice that sounded cool during a whiteboard session and they ran with and lost sight of whether it was really adding value to the game.

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2 minutes ago, KohrAh said:

Like Vectious said, it's complexity for the sake of complexity.  Without the ability to choose where you're attacking the hit boxes really add nothing to the game.  The only effect I can see is making it more difficult to gear up.  If you want a certain balance of resistances you'll need to get that same mix on each armor piece, instead of just getting the balance out of the total.  Maybe that's part of the devs' reasoning.

With how much talk there always is about limited developer resources and doing X of Y if there are enough resources to do so, the entire hitbox concept just seems like a big waste of effort.  Not to mention it will add more calculations that the server needs to handle.

Maybe there's an aspect that hasn't been revealed yet.  As things are now however this really feels like a design choice that sounded cool during a whiteboard session and they ran with and lost sight of whether it was really adding value to the game.

They touched on this in the last Q&A and what I got from what they said was they wanted more thinking and relevance to gear to choice.

With being able to mix and match armor ie wear heavy, medium, light at the same time in varying amounts, if my chest piece is heavy armor it doesn't make sense to have the heavy armor also mitigate my head which I am wearing a piece of light armor on.

BUT yeah with no way to either direct attacks to a certain piece, or deflect attacks to a certain piece there's not much use in that. So yeah I would agree maybe there's more to it coming and its not ready yet so they not talking or showing it yet.

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4 minutes ago, pang said:

They touched on this in the last Q&A and what I got from what they said was they wanted more thinking and relevance to gear to choice.

With being able to mix and match armor ie wear heavy, medium, light at the same time in varying amounts, if my chest piece is heavy armor it doesn't make sense to have the heavy armor also mitigate my head which I am wearing a piece of light armor on.

BUT yeah with no way to either direct attacks to a certain piece, or deflect attacks to a certain piece there's not much use in that. So yeah I would agree maybe there's more to it coming and its not ready yet so they not talking or showing it yet.

If they have some cool stuff they're working on they should say that.  They do it all the time on other features.  'Hey you guys can't see this yet, but there are cool things coming on X.'  And more often that not when we get the further details it was well worth the wait.

As it stands it feel like they're just coming up with excuses to justify continuing down this path.  It also seems like they may be just trying to find a way to make sure people match armor of the same type.  I hope they have more planned to make this more worthwhile, or just move on from the idea.  As it stands now with the information available it feels like a huge waste of resources to continue down this path.

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On the armor side chest pieces DO change the AC and all child stats of the other pieces.   From the attacking end it certainly does feel more RNG based that you hit a certain area of the body unless we get powers that hit specific areas and can use them knowing that damage is increased...  From the defense side though having to plan which damage type you mitigate for each area is important enough to build for it or even,  if they ever work, give up the set bonus for.  


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I dunno. I don't feel like this system is every going to really add much to the game. I mean, will I be able to recognize someone's weak points and target my attacks? Not really, most people will probably go all or nothing on sets of armor. Full mail, full plate, or full leather, for example. Will I be able to anticipate someone's strongest attack, and shift around my armor to compensate? Not really, because no class will be centered around only attacking feet or the head, and I can't really even expect to only be fighting that class. So why is developing this system worthwhile when it isn't going to really change how I use my gear and abilities?

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43 minutes ago, Frykka said:

On the armor side chest pieces DO change the AC and all child stats of the other pieces.   From the attacking end it certainly does feel more RNG based that you hit a certain area of the body unless we get powers that hit specific areas and can use them knowing that damage is increased...  From the defense side though having to plan which damage type you mitigate for each area is important enough to build for it or even,  if they ever work, give up the set bonus for.  

Most people are going to build against the most common damage (i.e. example, fire was highly used in ESO, so anything with fire resistance was a godsend). Depending on the band it might be rare to find people running around with multiple armor sets for different encounters (not improbable, but definitely rare). If the meta shifts to fire, everyone is going to gear up on fire resist gear, if the meta shifts to poison or disease, we'll see gear trends shift accordingly. I don't think we'll see much mix and matching going on since that would be highly inefficient; you typically defend yourself against the most widely used damage type.

If location damage is random, it will just be another RNG thing in a long list of RNG things that shouldn't really exist in the game. Trying to figure out who hit you with what, and where they hit you is going to be a convoluted mess. If they were going with location damage, I would of rather it be aim based (aim for the head, get hit in the head, aim for the legs, get hit in the legs - each ability has a different modifier based on what location you hit).

The system as proposed atm seems halfhearted, but perhaps more will be revealed.

I remember reading awhile back that one of the developers said that most people are running around in no armor / basic armor, and that they want to more incentives in force people to craft the more advanced stuff. This definitely screams like an attempt at that, but what they don't seem to realize is that the reason why people aren't crafting more advanced armor is because the process is so tedious and convoluted. Nobody wants to harvest mats for hours on end to craft one suit of white advanced armor, and the very act of harvesting is a sluggish bore. Fix the issue with crafting and harvesting and I think you'll find more people willing to participate in those actions and advanced armor. Potions expedite the process, but even then it's a hurdle that most players need to get over.

Edited by Helix

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3 hours ago, ringhloth said:

I dunno. I don't feel like this system is every going to really add much to the game. I mean, will I be able to recognize someone's weak points and target my attacks? Not really, most people will probably go all or nothing on sets of armor. Full mail, full plate, or full leather, for example. Will I be able to anticipate someone's strongest attack, and shift around my armor to compensate? Not really, because no class will be centered around only attacking feet or the head, and I can't really even expect to only be fighting that class. So why is developing this system worthwhile when it isn't going to really change how I use my gear and abilities?

It seems like with the styling of the different armor that people are going to want to stick to a certain type as you said.  It's not like generic armor where using chain sleeves with your plate chest piece will create a different but equally cool look to using either alone.  Perhaps that's part of why they're sticking with hit boxes, to add one more layer of getting people on a single armor type and being able to more reliably deliver the cool look.

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