Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Recommended Posts

Everytime I read all these complain post people seem to forget were in pre-alpha.

Give it time, but don't forget to post constructive comment to help the dev make the game as good as it should be.

I understand the frustration behind op's thread, but people buy package expecting a finished product. Quality takes time. Give your feedback, include a little meat around the bone. Ex : I don't like char customisation. (why? What do you suggest? Get the conversation going). 

That being said we all need to let the steam out sometimes:D

No, you're not suppose to have extra pieces once the armor is assembled.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 96
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

RENAMING THIS THREAD TO: "PLEASE EDUCATE ME ON CROWFALL'S FUTURE CUSTOMIZATION SYSTEMS" The customization of looks, genders or character powers, weapons and builds has yet to arrive to the test

Not even close...   you are under-informed.   Shadowbane had the same restrictions on weapons allowed your base class with starting runes and disciplines unlocking the other weapon types.   Crowfall w

Man, most of your feedback is kind of hard to respond to because it's just not very specific. I'll respond to the ones that are clear enough and I don't disagree with all of your initial impressions.

44 minutes ago, Helix said:

While the discipline system is cool and all; that too is behind a gear / crafter wall. I think that's part of his issue. All this gear based progression means you'll either have to recruit more people (guild bloat, which is always pretty terrible), or try and become sufficient by hoarding accounts (so you don't have to rely on johnson to log on and make you the discipline rune you so desperately need). Take all the gear away and you're just the same as the confessor next to you. Discipline runes and vessels are also not permanent, in fact, there is little to no permanent character based progression in the game that can differentiate you from someone else besides maybe "Boons/Banes" which seem to be a minor thing.

Doesn't seem like a new "issue" to me. Gear/item based progression is in pretty much every single MMO ever made. Take away your EPIC WoW raid gear and all you're left with is lvl's and skill trees, same here. Whats a bit different than some other games is Crowfall being a PvP game with looting. Progression still exists, just not in a manor in which some may prefer, but doesn't mean its not there or its "bad".

Also sorry but having to be social and network in an MMO isn't really a valid argument against features/mechanic's you don't like, IMO. its part of the game...

Besides the point was more to do with actual character building and not just progression which is a bit vague and subjective anyway. Coolwaters claims the game lacks character building so I pointed out a system that adds to character building.

Edited by pang
Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, pang said:

So the Discipline system they showed us a few weeks back didn't do anything for you? Seems it'll be even deeper and more dynamic then we all thought it would be and offers some of what you talk about in your next post.

No, actually.  It's illusion.  They are artificially gated.  The example tossed around was Legio's are slated to have a bow rune, Confessor cannot use it.  It's not a matter of want to , it's a matter of "can I or not?".  This is an example of pigeon-holing us into certain 'visions', while giving us the illusion of choice.  If they truly wanted us to be able to make 'bad decisions that affect us', there would not be so many artificial gates.

Right now they are making it all about gear: vessels, disciplines, weapons, tools, armor.  AT's are very shallow overall, not power curve-wise, as some nodes are exponentially more 'valuable' than others (Fury & Vendetta from fessor trees as poignant examples).  You never have to make any 'real' choices, besides your UT paths, and even that is debatable. The choice in AT trees only matter so long as 'everyone else' doesn't have it trained, which is only time-gated, so easily overcome. 

Advanced classes require vessels, which I have pointed out before, shouldn't even be a 'tree', it's not even an 'option', it will be required.  They have stated the 'parent' stats will be the most desired...only the vessel tree allows training those.  You also cannot use an advanced vessel, basic or promotion class, without it, AND if you have looked at the crafted vessels vs what we play in, it will easily be the most valuable piece of gear (especially if you can boost harvest or craft, which I assume will be a 'thing').

While we have not gotten to test them, I also question, and have reservations about, the ability of disciplines to make things 'dynamic'.  As already stated, they are artificially gated, which means people will quickly run tests and determine 'best' min/max's.  So while they may have 50+ disciplines, if 30 of them have no practical use/application, or for any reason are deemed 'undesirable', what will be the point?  Plus, the discipline system, IMO, will not make up for the complete lack of choices in AT's training, we can't make 'bad' decisions, outside of choosing to train a less desirable node over a more powerful one, which can be corrected anytime..

Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, pang said:

Doesn't seem like a new "issue" to me. Gear/item based progression is in pretty much every single MMO ever made. Take away your EPIC WoW raid gear and all you're left with is lvl's and skill trees, same here. Whats a bit different than some other games is Crowfall being a PvP game with looting. Progression still exists, just not in a manor in which some may prefer, but doesn't mean its not there or its "bad".

Also sorry but having to be social and network in an MMO isn't really a valid argument against features/mechanic's you don't like, IMO. its part of the game...

Besides the point was more to do with actual character building and not just progression which is a bit vague and subjective anyway. Coolwaters claims the game lacks character building so I pointed out a system that adds to character building.

 Those skill trees in WoW are actually pretty character defining, and the gear augments those choices. In WoW, I can me an elemental shaman, an enhancement shaman or a restoration shaman.

In contrast, your character is little more than a disposable shell in crowfall. There are few if any "unique" choices to be made on the archetype skill lines; you're pretty much on "rails". In crowfall you're a knight, and that's pretty much it (and I know you'll bring up promotions, but we know nothing about them, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were pushed till long after release or canned altogether). You can craft disciplines, vessels and weapons which extend the knight, but if you die and lose those items, you're back to just being a knight.

I think this is one reason why a lot of people have a problem with "progression" in this game; nothing sticks. It's temporary progression and then a period of regression.

 

Edited by Helix
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, coolwaters said:

I have felt character attachment, particularly in SB where you could make some fairly unique builds even years later.

I think you may misunderstand what I mean by character building though. It's not the character that matters do much as the building. The creative process of trying something new and finding whatever degree of success. The replayability of the character building in SB kept me hooked for years. In fact, I feel like I can confidently deduce that you never got to play Shadowbane based on your post above alone.

Am I right? To me, this game without solid character building would just be a shooter with crafting and good sieging. We'd be playing Halo with magic, essentially. That's my honest .02.

Correct deduction about SB, and sorry for misunderstanding what you meant by character building.

You are correct.  A part of the fun I had playing DDO online, was the ability to explore different builds.

A trip to a trainer would let you respec your class to a different set of feats and skills. This was always a drawn out process, and could only be done once a day.  Then trying to min/max equipment based on that respec was the goal for your toon, I still have a problem with the word character, was to put together and build the most optimized version of that feat/skill combination.

Taking it from that perspective, I totally see the difficulty and problem you have with the current system. Having your "best" gear gated behind not only other players, but also random crafting chance, as well as no current way to "re-spec", trained skills, and a current lack of anything resembling "feats" that are simply inherent in your archetype, the later archetype training could potentially do this, but it still needs pass 1 2 and 3 to see how it shakes out.

Yea, I get and now share the concern here.  Character <shudder> building has always been an exploration based mechanic, and they have essentially added an achiever mechanic as a gate to that exploration.

Not being the explorer type, I missed the relationship until just now.

Clear violation of rule 15

Quote

Lesson #15: Design the component for its intended audience

When you aim to please everyone, you often please no one. Not all your players want the same thing out of your game. It's important to understand what different kinds of things your players want, so that you can understand what kinds of different players you have. This means when you design any one component, you need to know which part of your audience it's intended for and then design that component for that audience. If other players don't like it, it doesn't matter. It's not for them.

There's a desire when creating something to try and please the widest audience you can, but this has to be done at the macro level and not the micro level. The way you make as many players happy as possible is to understand what audience segments your game has and then make components that speak to each of those segments. It's more important that each type of player enjoys something about your game than it is that they enjoy everything about your game. What this means is when you are working at the micro level on the components, it's crucial to understand who each component piece is for so that you can design it for that audience. Each member of your audience then gets a part of the game that makes them go, "That's for me!"

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pang said:

So the Discipline system they showed us a few weeks back didn't do anything for you? Seems it'll be even deeper and more dynamic then we all thought it would be and offers some of what you talk about in your next post.

I haven't seen a discipline system, but I have seen the plans for it. The news I have seen on Disciplines looks more like gear to me than character building. They are inserted into your Vessel as I understand it, which looks like it can be changed on demand, presuming you have the vessels and training.

I think my views on the topic are fairly well known around here. (i.e. I won't shut up about it) I hope Disciplines solve all of CF's woes. I just don't understand why eliminating character differentiation in the skill training was ever a design goal. It seems backwards to me at best.

 

edit: @KrakkenSmacken In early-mid Shadowbane there was no refining of skills or stats at all. And I loved it. Your Character was yours. Truly. You put 1 too many points into a skill or stat? It's there for good. You can reroll, and some did. It kept us going for years. Then refining was put in, but was slow and expensive. Weeks or months to really change a toon. Then the F2P crowd sunk their teeth in and they cry for fast respecs, and the devs caved. Eventually you could refine a toon in a day easily, which sucked.

If I had my way there would be no or very, very slow changing to a character. Your choices in who and what you are would be meaningful and would have weight. They didn't in SB near the end and they won't in CF as far as I can tell right now.

Edited by coolwaters
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

I haven't seen a discipline system, but I have seen the plans for it. The news I have seen on Disciplines looks more like gear to me than character building. They are inserted into your Vessel as I understand it, which looks like it can be changed on demand, presuming you have the vessels and training.

I think my views on the topic are fairly well known around here. (i.e. I won't shut up about it) I hope Disciplines solve all of CF's woes. I just don't understand why eliminating character differentiation in the skill training was ever a design goal. It seems backwards to me at best.

Isn't that what disciplines were in SB? Items you equip?

Also I wouldn't suggest putting all your hopes into just one system, by design I think its an accumulation of systems that will "make or break it" and not just one we can see now. I don't see how "eliminating character differentiation in the skill training" is accurate. I see it as they had a set design goal for their skill tress, and then a set design goal for the rest of and the overall systems to include character differentiation.

My main point though I guess was that I think the things you want will exist, just not in the way you want it. Doesn't mean its not there though and doesn't mean its "bad" because don't like it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

I haven't seen a discipline system, but I have seen the plans for it. The news I have seen on Disciplines looks more like gear to me than character building. They are inserted into your Vessel as I understand it, which looks like it can be changed on demand, presuming you have the vessels and training.

I think my views on the topic are fairly well known around here. (i.e. I won't shut up about it) I hope Disciplines solve all of CF's woes. I just don't understand why eliminating character differentiation in the skill training was ever a design goal. It seems backwards to me at best.

 

edit: @KrakkenSmacken In early-mid Shadowbane there was no refining of skills or stats at all. And I loved it. Your Character was yours. Truly. You put 1 too many points into a skill or stat? It's there for good. You can reroll, and some did. It kept us going for years. Then refining was put in, but was slow and expensive. Weeks or months to really change a toon. Then the F2P crowd sunk their teeth in and they cry for fast respecs, and the devs caved. Eventually you could refine a toon in a day easily, which sucked.

If I had my way there would be no or very, very slow changing to a character. Your choices in who and what you are would be meaningful and would have weight. They didn't in SB near the end and they won't in CF as far as I can tell right now.

I don't mind the idea of zero re-spec in CF.  That's what Archetype decay and replacement is for.  The problem is when that bumps into YEARS of passive training requirements that gate the crafting process, which then gates the discipline quality.  It's a gauntlet of independent and interdependent restrictions, that keep you from being in control of your own basic character.

Personally I think if they are revisiting training, they should consider moving it to the campaign level, or putting discipline crafting into the specific archetype training, and not in general.  That way you are in control of your archetypes own skill and advancement, and only have to look elsewhere if you want a discipline that is not in line with your archetypes profile.

Having your core vessel dependent on others has always rubbed me the wrong way. Ive suggested it before, but I'll do it again.  I think core things like vessels and disciplines should be something players can get directly from the Gods through sacrifice in each campaign world.  

The more you sacrifice, and the further along you are in passive training, the better the vessel and disciplines the Gods bestow on you.  Obligating the Crafting of those is just using a hammer on a screw.  I don't mind it being an option, a different and possibly cheaper way to get the same thing, but I really don't like the aesthetics of every decent vessel being a frankenstein.

Quote

Lesson #2: Aesthetics matter

The first lesson talked about human behavior. This second lesson talks about human perception. In college I studied communications, and one of the classes I was required to take focused on aesthetics. Aesthetics has numerous nicknames. It's known as both the "philosophy of art" and the "science of beauty." It's the scientific study of how humans perceive the world.

Scientists learn about aesthetics by traveling the world and asking people from different backgrounds, different geographies, different cultures to all record how they perceive things. What they found was that there are a lot of similarities that cross all boundaries, that seem tied to how the human brain works. There are just certain qualities that the brain seeks out, things like balance, symmetry, and pattern completion.

The result is that in games, people expect the components of a game to have a certain feel. I'm not talking just about visual aesthetics (Magic tends to excel there), but how the game pieces are put together—whether or not they feel right.

Failure to satisfy aesthetics makes players feel ill at ease, distracts them from focusing on your game, and makes them pay attention to what your game isn't instead of what it is. Aesthetics aren't just a decorative issue. They affect how your players perceive your game. So not only shouldn't you fight human behavior, you also shouldn't fight human perception.

The Frankenstein like aesthetics of all characters just does not fit in with the concept of fallen heros.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pang said:

Isn't that what disciplines were in SB? Items you equip?

Also I wouldn't suggest putting all your hopes into just one system, by design I think its an accumulation of systems that will "make or break it" and not just one we can see now. I don't see how "eliminating character differentiation in the skill training" is accurate. I see it as they had a set design goal for their skill tress, and then a set design goal for the rest of and the overall systems to include character differentiation.

My main point though I guess was that I think the things you want will exist, just not in the way you want it. Doesn't mean its not there though and doesn't mean its "bad" because don't like it.

No, the things I want will not exist.

I want skill training that defines my character.

I have not suggested that SB did not have disciplines, nor that it didn't have gear. It just had a whole lot more than that.

We have skill training now and we are all playing Halo with magic. We are all the same, save a crit boost here and there. Maybe you're right and Disciplines will magically fix all of that. I'd love if that were true. It doesn't look to me as if it will be true absent sweeping changes to the skill system, however.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

No, the things I want will not exist.

I want skill training that defines my character.

I have not suggested that SB did not have disciplines, nor that it didn't have gear. It just had a whole lot more than that.

We have skill training now and we are all playing Halo with magic. We are all the same, save a crit boost here and there. Maybe you're right and Disciplines will magically fix all of that. I'd love if that were true. It doesn't look to me as if it will be true absent sweeping changes to the skill system, however.

Oh my bad I thought we were talking about character building, not just back to hammering on one specific mechanic out of an entire system. I was hoping we could discuss different system/s that may provide character building besides that one system you want it to so badly. Oh well, I tried.

I never said Disciplines will magically fix everything, I actually said don't put your hopes into just one system (like you did with the skill system).  

Edited by pang
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, pang said:

Oh my bad I thought we were talking about character building, not just back to hammering on one specific mechanic out of an entire system. I was hoping we could discuss different system/s that may provide character building besides that one system you want it to so badly. Oh well, I tried.

I never said Disciplines will magically fix everything, I actually said don't put your hopes into just one system (like you did with the skill system).  

Again, I do not consider gear to be a part of character building. You do and that's fine.

The one thing I am very clear on, however, is that the current plan disclosed to us is to only allow character building via gear.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2017 at 0:03 PM, Apok said:

This thread seems very unproductive and a waste of time. The OP original post was akin to a child having a temper tantrum and his replies there after just shows his mind is already made up, nothing anyone says here is going to change it. He's entitled to dislike the game but the format used to describe the "Why's" look like something my 13 year old step son would produce. I'm all for someone outlining their dislikes and the reasons for them but it really should be done with at least a shred of intelligence.

Like your unintelligent reply here Apok.  Thank you for adding anything to this thread.  Oh wait... you didn't add anything.  

Apparently, according to the monitors in this forum I can't call someone one a troll because calling them a troll is considered trolling.  So maybe one of the monitors can tell me what the hell Apoxs reply is???

if this is not someone trolling, I don't know what is.  His reply said nothing useful what so ever! And called me a child 2 times. 

Its ok Apox, stick with your simple game... god forbid you need to be creative and make something other then a cookie cutter character.  But hey some people love there no talent cookie cutter characters.  

Sorry if I expect more from the game then a watered down version of WoW.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2017 at 0:30 PM, coolwaters said:

No, the things I want will not exist.

I want skill training that defines my character.

I have not suggested that SB did not have disciplines, nor that it didn't have gear. It just had a whole lot more than that.

We have skill training now and we are all playing Halo with magic. We are all the same, save a crit boost here and there. Maybe you're right and Disciplines will magically fix all of that. I'd love if that were true. It doesn't look to me as if it will be true absent sweeping changes to the skill system, however.

QTF

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/18/2017 at 11:12 AM, Xorlarrin said:

Everytime I read all these complain post people seem to forget were in pre-alpha.

Give it time, but don't forget to post constructive comment to help the dev make the game as good as it should be.

I understand the frustration behind op's thread, but people buy package expecting a finished product. Quality takes time. Give your feedback, include a little meat around the bone. Ex : I don't like char customisation. (why? What do you suggest? Get the conversation going). 

That being said we all need to let the steam out sometimes:D

I don't disagree with you hear , but I strongly feel like there are certain things in the game which are the "base" characteristics of the game itself and can't be changed without having to redo too much of the game itself.  When it comes to the characters and there archetypes I believe that is a "base" characteristic of the game.  Maybe I am wrong... I will continue to hope I am but I don't think I am.  

I just don't see them getting up and changing the base of there game.

at the end of the day, it is what it is and if it says like this I will be off to back Camelot Unchained and play that instead of this because of you ask me it looks a hell of a lot better.

praying the shadowbane developer remembers his roots.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2017 at 1:26 AM, scree said:

I just spit up in my mouth reading OPs post. Well done sir. I had to look back and make sure this wasn't posted on 4/1/17 to make sure. 

I think we should all take a moment and reflect that the incident count of this occurring is dramatically going to increase going forward.

 

To think some people equate how a character looks versus getting to choose how a character plays as customization is utterly beyond my comprehension. 

Did you even read my post?!?! 

Also if you are not going to add anything useful to the thread please reframe from comments.  What you said was pretty much blah blah blah blah... I have nothing useful to add...blah blah blah.  

My whole post was about the lack of customization... not sure why I am wasting my time explaining this to you. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Your complaint was entirely about the lack of visual choices. If you think anyone here equates visual appearance with actual substance in differing yourself from someone else, you must have mis-read the bulk of the replies back at you.

You: White Hair
Me: White Hair
You: Crying.

Me: Two handed sword Assassin who throws fireballs
You: Roleplaying Dilettante with a passion for Costume design
Me: Laughing as I murder you.

End scene.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2017 at 2:58 PM, Helix said:

So is financial management and stuff a completely foreign subject in your part of the world or something?  Art takes time and costs money. It's perhaps the most labor intensive and costly aspect of game development. They're a small team and can only do so much. Limiting classes to races means way less artwork and keeps expenses in check. Same goes with limiting weapon type class. 

Should of done your research bruh.

Keep telling yourself it will all be better.  I personally don't think they are going to change the foundation of there game but hell bro, I hope you are right because currently from my stand point it looks like the game is lacking same major character customization.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, scree said:

Your complaint was entirely about the lack of visual choices. If you think anyone here equates visual appearance with actual substance in differing yourself from someone else, you must have mis-read the bulk of the replies back at you.

You: White Hair
Me: White Hair
You: Crying.

Me: Two handed sword Assassin who throws fireballs
You: Roleplaying Dilettante with a passion for Costume design
Me: Laughing as I murder you.

End scene.

Uhhh....

what....?????

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...