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TJB0ND

Vessels

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1 minute ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Vessels are a moba-like system, the moba design intends for you to be able to play around with many different types of characters with relative ease.  Trying to translate a "mid-game" switch is kind of silly because the "game" durations are a bit different.  And yes moba-like is a bad thing if your goal is to bring back what has been forgotten in mmorpgs since WoW came out.  You are trying to create big persistent massive multiplayer worlds where choices feel significant, making successes and failures also feel more significant.  You don't do that by making too much of the game temporary and easily changeable. 

And yes there is a spectrum, perhaps you don't see it (I don't know what your gaming experience is). 

MOBAS also have not been doing strategic PvP for two decades, and really their rise did not occur until more like a decade ago, which oddly enough is the same time the spirit of old mmorpgs got stomped out by world of warcraft. 

I don't think you realize that by catering to convenience and shallow choices with less impact, you aren't leaving the comfort zone, you are right there in that WoW zone.

Incorrect.


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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Vessels are a moba-like system, the moba design intends for you to be able to play around with many different types of characters with relative ease.  Trying to translate a "mid-game" switch is kind of silly because the "game" durations are a bit different.  And yes moba-like is a bad thing if your goal is to bring back what has been forgotten in mmorpgs since WoW came out.  You are trying to create big persistent massive multiplayer worlds where choices feel significant, making successes and failures also feel more significant.  You don't do that by making too much of the game temporary and easily changeable. 

And yes there is a spectrum, perhaps you don't see it (I don't know what your gaming experience is). 

MOBAS also have not been doing strategic PvP for two decades, and really their rise did not occur until more like a decade ago, which oddly enough is the same time the spirit of old mmorpgs got stomped out by world of warcraft. 

I don't think you realize that by catering to convenience and shallow choices with less impact, you aren't leaving the comfort zone, you are right there in that WoW zone.

If you think that choices are insignificant in MOBAs, I don't think I don't think you really have the experience with them to trash talk them. If you make the wrong choice in a MOBA, you'll be punished. Maybe not for hours, such as picking a class that's incompatible with your playstyle in an MMO and having to restart (and that's good game design), but getting caught out of position because you decided to take a risk is more punishing than a lot of the "choices" I've made in MMOs.

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17 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

This is really funny to me. 

The conclusion that the vessel system provides a motive NOT to buy alt accounts, if that's really the suggestion here, is incorrect.

Don't think he was talking about alt accounts... Just alts, as in alternate classes to play on the same account. Sounds like he was saying Vessels will make it easier for those alt-oholics amongst us because you won't have to logoff and back on and less maintenance when you want to play another class.

 

19 minutes ago, IHeartFargo said:

I agree with this pretty deeply, but I've come to believe that the vast majority of people interested in CF at this point fall into the "MMOs were good and pure and we custarded them up, so let's get back to those days" camp. I can't fault them. That's their perogative, and I agree with many points they make. But it does mean we're perhaps overly subject to some archaic viewpoints regarding "good" game design.

Yeah I dunno I feel like most here are open to ideas as long as its for the good of the game. Maybe at first when the game was announced it was like that but fortunately I think the community as a whole has grown more open minded than that.

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2 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

If you think that choices are insignificant in MOBAs, I don't think I don't think you really have the experience with them to trash talk them. If you make the wrong choice in a MOBA, you'll be punished. Maybe not for hours, such as picking a class that's incompatible with your playstyle in an MMO and having to restart (and that's good game design), but getting caught out of position because you decided to take a risk is more punishing than a lot of the "choices" I've made in MMOs.

It's not good MMORPG design to limit the significance of player choices.  Unless you are trying to be like WoW and cater to the casual masses that don't want to have to learn to adapt to significant choices and accept the good and the bad with them.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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9 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It's not good MMORPG design to limit the significance of player choices.  Unless you are trying to be like WoW and cater to the casual masses that don't want to have to learn to adapt to significant choices and accept the good and the bad with them.

Misrepresentation of the facts, unfortunately. 


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@pang You're right. He could have been referring to just the extra VIP slots he plans to spend $15 a month on.

But I doubt it. Like the rest of us he'll probably spend hundreds less by buying a few alt accounts.

Unless he just has the VIP as a backer reward and can't redeem it. If VIP is enhanced substantially then perhaps. But without VIP he won't be training much in the way of 'alts' as we understand them.

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4 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It's not good MMORPG design to limit the significance of player choices.  Unless you are trying to be like WoW and cater to the casual masses that don't want to have to learn to adapt to significant choices and accept the good and the bad with them.

Choosing a class at the beginning of the game is a bad choice. It's asking the player to make significant choices about how they want to play the game, without them knowing anything about the playstyles of the characters they are picking. I know that in just about every MMO with characters I've played, I've decided that I made the wrong choice, and rerolled my character, and in some of those I've ended up deleting the original character and never played it again. I don't think it's fair to say that I was at fault, either: does playing an MMO necessitate hours of research beforehand?

Edited by ringhloth

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29 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

Choosing a class at the beginning of the game is a bad choice. It's asking the player to make significant choices about how they want to play the game, without them knowing anything about the playstyles of the characters they are picking. I know that in just about every MMO with characters I've played, I've decided that I made the wrong choice, and rerolled my character, and in some of those I've ended up deleting the original character and never played it again. I don't think it's fair to say that I was at fault, either: does playing an MMO necessitate hours of research beforehand?

Picking a class and having to depend on crafters too much should not be in the same discussion.

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36 minutes ago, ringhloth said:

Choosing a class at the beginning of the game is a bad choice. It's asking the player to make significant choices about how they want to play the game, without them knowing anything about the playstyles of the characters they are picking. I know that in just about every MMO with characters I've played, I've decided that I made the wrong choice, and rerolled my character, and in some of those I've ended up deleting the original character and never played it again. I don't think it's fair to say that I was at fault, either: does playing an MMO necessitate hours of research beforehand?

Okay i will try to not be offensive or throw my ideas on you. I do think that to be a good player of MMO´s you need to do your homework and i must say that this game in particular will need some time to sit and think, what will i do? You have seen the greatness of the disciplines? D>

But dont worry i am with you when you say that is wrong to make a player make a decisive choice right in the begining of the game, that´s why i believe that the Vessels system is very good since you have the choice to change your character and to try each one of them until you find the "choooooosennnn one", BUT i think is wrong that they are itens and that we can craft vessels of legendary level with all that cooldown reduction and the sparkles. 

If you guys dont mind me saying, i think that the ideal system should be the implementation of the vessel system, without a tree of skills for the vessels and that should be possible to change them during campaings that allow this, but this should not be the rule, since is nice when before a campaing you can talk with your guildmates and then balance a good party. 

What i am trying to say? LET THEM CHANGE THEIR CHARACTERS AS MUCH AS THEY WANT, but only because that is more forgiving for new players that wont need to delete their accounts because of a bad choice. 


"An ordinary archer practices until he gets it right. A Ranger practices until he never gets it wrong." -The Lost Stories  


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1 hour ago, ringhloth said:

Choosing a class at the beginning of the game is a bad choice. It's asking the player to make significant choices about how they want to play the game, without them knowing anything about the playstyles of the characters they are picking. I know that in just about every MMO with characters I've played, I've decided that I made the wrong choice, and rerolled my character, and in some of those I've ended up deleting the original character and never played it again. I don't think it's fair to say that I was at fault, either: does playing an MMO necessitate hours of research beforehand?

Why is it a bad choice?  You can give a description of the class and if the player makes a bad choice they can reroll to another character.  People need to suffer setbacks for making poor choices, they can't be protected from themselves and have their hand held.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I didn't like the concept at first, but it's grown on me.  From an RP perspective, I hated the continuity disconnect in mmos between the main (cannon) story, the story that the player experience (quest story lines where you're the greatest hero in the land), and actual gameplay (how come I can resurrect myself, but others can't).  The crow/vessel relationship is clever way to make respawning and alts cannon.   I will miss watching my character's journey from novice to master, but I think vessels fit Crowfall's gameplay better.  We're not leveling up characters or questing through zones, so the "journey" would be very quick.  

However, "necromancy" is a fly in the ointment.  I thought we were inhabiting the bodies of fallen soldiers, not stitching together abominations.  IMO, for necromancy to work, it should feel more like resurrection than grafting.  Have the "head" be the corpse of a fallen hero.  Have the "limbs" be oils or essences or something. 

Upgrades could be handled as blessings.  (A basic vessel would simply be resurrected. A higher quality one would be blessed by <insert patron deity>)  Just spitballing ideas.

I am okay with treating vessels as crafted items, like ships in a space mmos, but I don't want this game to be "Zombie Graft Battles"

(Only recently started following, so sorry if some of this is wrong.  I'm still absorbing both the lore and the gameplay details)

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I think the question here is what do vessels add to the game? What do having vessels allow us as players to achieve that we wouldn't in other games. The only thing I see them adding is if you play alt character you won't have to reroll a whole new character and start from scratch but let us be honest with the way the skill system is set up you will have to start sorta from scratch anyways? Let's say you are like me only going to play one class. well, so you do not have v.ip. status. That would mean I was focusing on whatever class that I been playing and training that archetypes skills only. Now that I decided to pick another class I will have to start training those particular skills in that archetype tree. I know that your universal  skills effect on w/e archetype you play so it's not like completely starting over, I for one just don't see what vessels really add to the game?

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5 minutes ago, TJB0ND said:

I think the question here is what do vessels add to the game? What do having vessels allow us as players to achieve that we wouldn't in other games. The only thing I see them adding is if you play alt character you won't have to reroll a whole new character and start from scratch but let us be honest with the way the skill system is set up you will have to start sorta from scratch anyways? Let's say you are like me only going to play one class. well, so you do not have v.ip. status. That would mean I was focusing on whatever class that I been playing and training that archetypes skills only. Now that I decided to pick another class I will have to start training those particular skills in that archetype tree. I know that your universal  skills effect on w/e archetype you play so it's not like completely starting over, I for one just don't see what vessels really add to the game?

They are equips, to be blunt. Thats why i dont like them but the concept, for a lore purpose is very good. You will see, the first crafters of the game will all be necromancers, so that the guild have legendary vessels, but, think with me, in the end game everyone will be the same, with they super powerfull vessells, only the new guys that dont have a crafter friend or money will suffer... This game wasnt going to break this problem?


"An ordinary archer practices until he gets it right. A Ranger practices until he never gets it wrong." -The Lost Stories  


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✣Junte-se a nós✣

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Pages have been written on why C&V is undesirable to many (some very big threads with lots of thoughtful arguments).  Since it is not going to change, I earnestly hope ACE will "blunt" it a bit by allowing an option to bend it a bit more toward a traditional RPG.  In fairness, ACE has made noises to that effect (here and there) but the jury is still out.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Why is it a bad choice?  You can give a description of the class and if the player makes a bad choice they can reroll to another character.  People need to suffer setbacks for making poor choices, they can't be protected from themselves and have their hand held.

There's a difference between hand holding, and someone being forced to pick a class with enormous consequences despite probably never seeing a minute of gameplay, nor any idea the implications of the balance of the classes. And rerolling can be a huge penalty in a lot of MMOs.

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Switching between vessels seems about the same to me as switching between alt characters (that I've done in every mmorpg).

I have some concerns about how time-consuming it is to get the resources to craft vessels and gear, but that's not a problem with the vessel concept itself.


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1 hour ago, miraluna said:

Switching between vessels seems about the same to me as switching between alt characters (that I've done in every mmorpg).

I have some concerns about how time-consuming it is to get the resources to craft vessels and gear, but that's not a problem with the vessel concept itself.

Except, alts are not crafted by crafters. Alts do not have account bound training, etc....

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Re-copying and re-wording a big part from another thread, because it more directly speaks to the discussion than the other thread did.

The problem is when vessel and character quality bumps into YEARS of passive training requirements that gate the crafting process, which then gates the discipline quality, which is gated by finding the right Dr. Frankenstein to build YOUR body.  It's a gauntlet of independent and interdependent restrictions, that keep you from being in control of your own basic character.

Having your core vessel dependent on others has always rubbed me the wrong way. Ive suggested it before, but I'll do it again.  I think core things like vessels should be something players can get directly from the Gods through sacrifice in each campaign world.  

The more you sacrifice, and the further along you are in passive training on the archetype, the better the vessel the Gods will bestow on you.  Obligating player Crafting of those is just using a hammer on a screw.  I don't mind it being an option, a different and possibly cheaper way to get the same thing, but I really don't like the aesthetics of every decent vessel being a frankenstein.

 

Quote

Lesson #2: Aesthetics matter

The first lesson talked about human behavior. This second lesson talks about human perception. In college I studied communications, and one of the classes I was required to take focused on aesthetics. Aesthetics has numerous nicknames. It's known as both the "philosophy of art" and the "science of beauty." It's the scientific study of how humans perceive the world.

Scientists learn about aesthetics by traveling the world and asking people from different backgrounds, different geographies, different cultures to all record how they perceive things. What they found was that there are a lot of similarities that cross all boundaries, that seem tied to how the human brain works. There are just certain qualities that the brain seeks out, things like balance, symmetry, and pattern completion.

The result is that in games, people expect the components of a game to have a certain feel. I'm not talking just about visual aesthetics (Magic tends to excel there), but how the game pieces are put together—whether or not they feel right.

Failure to satisfy aesthetics makes players feel ill at ease, distracts them from focusing on your game, and makes them pay attention to what your game isn't instead of what it is. Aesthetics aren't just a decorative issue. They affect how your players perceive your game. So not only shouldn't you fight human behavior, you also shouldn't fight human perception.

You don't even have to bring up the player and training interdependency gates, the Frankenstein like aesthetics of all characters just does not fit in with the concept and lore of fallen heros eternally battling for the Gods. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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